Revitalizing The Party Of Ideas?

[AntiEverything]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: AntiEverything
No, Democrats do not move more to the right idealogically, they're fine where they are.

However, what does have to happen is the Democrats have to become of a party of positive progession. This whole campaign was built on negativity. Bush generated enough negativity with his Iraq stunt. If the Democrats wanted to win they needed to have a positive message about moving the country in the right direction. Instead the message was not one of a better tomorrow, but of how awful today is. All of the Bush = Hitler rhetoric hurt them, IMHO.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I've voted Libertarian in the past two presidential elections. I was ready to vote Kerry until I came to this forum and witnessed the absolute hatred being spewed by liberals. There was no way I wanted the leader of the hate party to become president. I couldn't bring myself to vote for Bush, so I voted Badnarik. I can't imagine I'm the only person who felt this way.

"Leader of the hate party"?

I think you made the same mistake a lot of people made. All you looked at were the radicals and assumed they spoke for the rest of us. I was actually going to vote Badnarik until I realize there is no way in hell I'd actually want a man with no experience to be President, and Kerry was the next closest match to my values. I think most Dems are Dems because they agree with the ideas, not because of hate. Or at least not any more so than conservatives.

This is an internet forum, you are always going to notice the morons more than the normal people. And there will be more morons than in real life because morons like an audience and they like annonymity. I WILL agree that there was a little too much of the Bush = Hitler rhetoric from the masses early on. It calmed down for most people, but the image apparently stayed around and we ended up with some people viewing the left as a bunch of assholes from the actions of a few.

Then perhaps rather than trying to keep Nader off the ballot, you should have left those nutjobs to their candidate of choice. Instead, Democrats despised Nader for his "losing" the 2000 election for them and tried to keep him down. So the only place for the leftist freaks to go was Kerry.

Just a theory.

Still, there was so much hate from the left and it was not just on this forum. Look at Michael Moore and the amount of publicity he received. The number of Bush = Hitler bumper stickers astounds me. It's far more than this forum, the left was nothing but negative, and I'm not interested in negativity. Life throws enough crap peoples way, I'm not about to go seek out even more, and that's all the Democrats had to offer.

 

[kranky]

The reason I didn't vote for Kerry is all about this theme - ideas.

I absolutely had no concept of what the man would do if elected. I knew what he was against, but that's about it. You have to tell people what your plan is. If you have a record, you can attack. If you don't, you need to explain your plan. But there were no ideas.

One of the problems they have is that instead of trying to win people over, they work too hard at trying to beat Republicans. That's not the same thing.

If they had focused on the ideas instead of the attacking, it would have helped.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
Moonbeam, dealmonkey... aka the "oblivious ones"... You might try and pull your heads outta your microscopic worldview and faces the realities I speak of. Newspapers and magazines across the country are speculating on the things I'm saying. Even Democratic orgs like the one CAD showed are discussing these things. This is a nationwide discussion and just because you don't like me or hate the topic doesn't mean it's somehow invalid.

Many Dems want to move to the left, some say there should be a move to the right , others suggest staying somewhere in the middle and redefining "values" in Democratic terms to find more and better ways to connect with the middle class. When you guys are done pinching each other's butt, look into it... it's your party.

Bah - it's almost not worth discussing things with those in denial. I mean we have a couple threads where leftists are grasping at fraud straws... If they(as a whole) can't accept they lost - how can we expect them to learn from it?

I tried to show them last December...but they knew better. They said what I had to offer was too "old" - but guess what? - That willing ignorance cost them the election.

*shrug* They can suit themselves I guess...

CsG

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: cwjerome
Moonbeam, dealmonkey... aka the "oblivious ones"... You might try and pull your heads outta your microscopic worldview and faces the realities I speak of. Newspapers and magazines across the country are speculating on the things I'm saying. Even Democratic orgs like the one CAD showed are discussing these things. This is a nationwide discussion and just because you don't like me or hate the topic doesn't mean it's somehow invalid.

Many Dems want to move to the left, some say there should be a move to the right , others suggest staying somewhere in the middle and redefining "values" in Democratic terms to find more and better ways to connect with the middle class. When you guys are done pinching each other's butt, look into it... it's your party.

Bah - it's almost not worth discussing things with those in denial. I mean we have a couple threads where leftists are grasping at fraud straws... If they(as a whole) can't accept they lost - how can we expect them to learn from it?

I tried to show them last December...but they knew better. They said what I had to offer was too "old" - but guess what? - That willing ignorance cost them the election.

*shrug* They can suit themselves I guess...

CsG

Meh, the great and brilliant Moonbeam tried to show you the light but you are too blind to see it. Oh well I guess you can rot in the hell of your ignorance. But then I should have known my great wisdom would be wasted on you. I did want you to know how I feel though so you could be suitably impressed,,,,,,and chastened. You poor ignorant thing.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: cwjerome
Moonbeam, dealmonkey... aka the "oblivious ones"... You might try and pull your heads outta your microscopic worldview and faces the realities I speak of. Newspapers and magazines across the country are speculating on the things I'm saying. Even Democratic orgs like the one CAD showed are discussing these things. This is a nationwide discussion and just because you don't like me or hate the topic doesn't mean it's somehow invalid.

Many Dems want to move to the left, some say there should be a move to the right , others suggest staying somewhere in the middle and redefining "values" in Democratic terms to find more and better ways to connect with the middle class. When you guys are done pinching each other's butt, look into it... it's your party.

Bah - it's almost not worth discussing things with those in denial. I mean we have a couple threads where leftists are grasping at fraud straws... If they(as a whole) can't accept they lost - how can we expect them to learn from it?

I tried to show them last December...but they knew better. They said what I had to offer was too "old" - but guess what? - That willing ignorance cost them the election.

*shrug* They can suit themselves I guess...

CsG

Meh, the great and brilliant Moonbeam tried to show you the light but you are too blind to see it. Oh well I guess you can rot in the hell of your ignorance. But then I should have known my great wisdom would be wasted on you. I did want you to know how I feel though so you could be suitably impressed,,,,,,and chastened. You poor ignorant thing.

Pssttt - dude - that wasn't me. You were holding your mirror backwards and it was really you

Getting more defiant in your refusal to accept things doesn't change reality Really, it's not THAT bad that the left lost - think of it as an opportunity to change your party for the better

CsG

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
I tried to show them last December...but they knew better. They said what I had to offer was too "old" - but guess what? - That willing ignorance cost them the election.

*shrug* They can suit themselves I guess...

CsG

Good to know that you've managed to pinpoint the exact problem with the Democratic Party. Good job!
:thumbsup:

They should hire you as a consultant.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: cwjerome
Moonbeam, dealmonkey... aka the "oblivious ones"... You might try and pull your heads outta your microscopic worldview and faces the realities I speak of. Newspapers and magazines across the country are speculating on the things I'm saying. Even Democratic orgs like the one CAD showed are discussing these things. This is a nationwide discussion and just because you don't like me or hate the topic doesn't mean it's somehow invalid.

Many Dems want to move to the left, some say there should be a move to the right , others suggest staying somewhere in the middle and redefining "values" in Democratic terms to find more and better ways to connect with the middle class. When you guys are done pinching each other's butt, look into it... it's your party.

Bah - it's almost not worth discussing things with those in denial. I mean we have a couple threads where leftists are grasping at fraud straws... If they(as a whole) can't accept they lost - how can we expect them to learn from it?

I tried to show them last December...but they knew better. They said what I had to offer was too "old" - but guess what? - That willing ignorance cost them the election.

*shrug* They can suit themselves I guess...

CsG

Meh, the great and brilliant Moonbeam tried to show you the light but you are too blind to see it. Oh well I guess you can rot in the hell of your ignorance. But then I should have known my great wisdom would be wasted on you. I did want you to know how I feel though so you could be suitably impressed,,,,,,and chastened. You poor ignorant thing.

Pssttt - dude - that wasn't me. You were holding your mirror backwards and it was really you

Getting more defiant in your refusal to accept things doesn't change reality Really, it's not THAT bad that the left lost - think of it as an opportunity to change your party for the better

CsG

Hehehe.............................BOING

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
I tried to show them last December...but they knew better. They said what I had to offer was too "old" - but guess what? - That willing ignorance cost them the election.

*shrug* They can suit themselves I guess...

CsG

Good to know that you've managed to pinpoint the exact problem with the Democratic Party. Good job!
:thumbsup:

They should hire you as a consultant.

Yes, the exact problem is that they didn't learn from their past. Republican's used to have the same problem when they were out of power. They made the same excuses we now see from the left.

They should - but they won't.

CsG

 

[cwjerome]

eh- they're wrapped up in ideology and theories. I sorta respect that they're willing to go down the tubes on principle, instead of selling short and working within the political realities of our country. It's almost like a religion, and they're willing to die (figuratively) for it.

 

[arsbanned]

Originally posted by: AntiEverything

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: AntiEverything
No, Democrats do not move more to the right idealogically, they're fine where they are.

However, what does have to happen is the Democrats have to become of a party of positive progession. This whole campaign was built on negativity. Bush generated enough negativity with his Iraq stunt. If the Democrats wanted to win they needed to have a positive message about moving the country in the right direction. Instead the message was not one of a better tomorrow, but of how awful today is. All of the Bush = Hitler rhetoric hurt them, IMHO.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I've voted Libertarian in the past two presidential elections. I was ready to vote Kerry until I came to this forum and witnessed the absolute hatred being spewed by liberals. There was no way I wanted the leader of the hate party to become president. I couldn't bring myself to vote for Bush, so I voted Badnarik. I can't imagine I'm the only person who felt this way.

"Leader of the hate party"?

I think you made the same mistake a lot of people made. All you looked at were the radicals and assumed they spoke for the rest of us. I was actually going to vote Badnarik until I realize there is no way in hell I'd actually want a man with no experience to be President, and Kerry was the next closest match to my values. I think most Dems are Dems because they agree with the ideas, not because of hate. Or at least not any more so than conservatives.

This is an internet forum, you are always going to notice the morons more than the normal people. And there will be more morons than in real life because morons like an audience and they like annonymity. I WILL agree that there was a little too much of the Bush = Hitler rhetoric from the masses early on. It calmed down for most people, but the image apparently stayed around and we ended up with some people viewing the left as a bunch of assholes from the actions of a few.

Then perhaps rather than trying to keep Nader off the ballot, you should have left those nutjobs to their candidate of choice. Instead, Democrats despised Nader for his "losing" the 2000 election for them and tried to keep him down. So the only place for the leftist freaks to go was Kerry.

Just a theory.

Still, there was so much hate from the left and it was not just on this forum. Look at Michael Moore and the amount of publicity he received. The number of Bush = Hitler bumper stickers astounds me. It's far more than this forum, the left was nothing but negative, and I'm not interested in negativity. Life throws enough crap peoples way, I'm not about to go seek out even more, and that's all the Democrats had to offer.

Negative? Rove wrote the book on it.

 

[Pliablemoose]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
eh- they're wrapped up in ideology and theories. I sorta respect that they're willing to go down the tubes on principle.

Exactly, that's one of the things I appreciate about Moonbeam, he knows his progressive social agenda will prob never be mainstream in his lifetime, but he hangs in there & eloquently dukes it out with us buttheads.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
eh- they're wrapped up in ideology and theories. I sorta respect that they're willing to go down the tubes on principle, instead of selling short and working within the political realities of our country. It's almost like a religion, and they're willing to die (figuratively) for it.

You guys keep talking like some 3% move towards Bush represents an unrelenting force that will rock the foundations of our society. In reality, this "move to the right" will probably end up just like all the other political shifts since our country was founded. It will continue for a little while, then move back the other way, or off in a new direction.

To use a science analogy, you guys have two points on the line with your most recent point being slightly higher than the older one. So what do you do? You connent the dots and draw a straight line throught the next dozen years like that's an accurate predicition.

So the question is whether it's better to wait for the people to shift towards your way of thinking, or shift towards where the population currently is. Frankly, people seem pretty willing to change their minds at the drop of a hat, I wouldn't go planning for some big, long term, permenant cultural shift. There's no precedent in history for that...except for the fact that things ALWAYS get more liberal over time as long as you look at a large enough scale. Prove me wrong if you don't think so.

Edit: And just to be clear, it doesn't matter to me one way or the other. I'm not willing to give up my principles because they are unpopular, and I don't have a very high opinion of anyone who would.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
eh- they're wrapped up in ideology and theories. I sorta respect that they're willing to go down the tubes on principle, instead of selling short and working within the political realities of our country. It's almost like a religion, and they're willing to die (figuratively) for it.

Don't you think most intelligent people are like this? People who aren't very well informed and don't have good decision making powers might just go with the flow. But who among us is willing to say that we're willing to abandon our princples if they become unpopular? You conservatives can feel comfortable with your small majority, but would you still hold on to your beliefs if 51% of the country was against YOU?

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: cwjerome
eh- they're wrapped up in ideology and theories. I sorta respect that they're willing to go down the tubes on principle, instead of selling short and working within the political realities of our country. It's almost like a religion, and they're willing to die (figuratively) for it.

Don't you think most intelligent people are like this? People who aren't very well informed and don't have good decision making powers might just go with the flow. But who among us is willing to say that we're willing to abandon our princples if they become unpopular? You conservatives can feel comfortable with your small majority, but would you still hold on to your beliefs if 51% of the country was against YOU?

No one is saying you shouldn't be liberals anymore - infact, I can somewhat respect liberals who admit who they are and what they stand for. However, it is quite clear that alot of democrats don't like to admit they are liberals. It shows within this forum and nation wide.
I'll repeat what I posted earlier in this thread:
" The problem I think you are having is that we are talking politics and you are trying to bring "liberal" progression into it. Try keeping it on a political level instead of trying to make feeble attempts at declaring "liberalism" is better. The issue at hand isn't which ideology is better - it is about the politics(the game)."
But hey, if you want to wait until people catch up to you(as if you liberals are so far ahead and better than others:roll: ) then so be it. The democrats will keep losing with an attitude like that.
*shrug* Have it your way...

CsG

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: cwjerome
eh- they're wrapped up in ideology and theories. I sorta respect that they're willing to go down the tubes on principle, instead of selling short and working within the political realities of our country. It's almost like a religion, and they're willing to die (figuratively) for it.

Don't you think most intelligent people are like this? People who aren't very well informed and don't have good decision making powers might just go with the flow. But who among us is willing to say that we're willing to abandon our princples if they become unpopular? You conservatives can feel comfortable with your small majority, but would you still hold on to your beliefs if 51% of the country was against YOU?

No one is saying you shouldn't be liberals anymore - infact, I can somewhat respect liberals who admit who they are and what they stand for. However, it is quite clear that alot of democrats don't like to admit they are liberals. It shows within this forum and nation wide.
I'll repeat what I posted earlier in this thread:
" The problem I think you are having is that we are talking politics and you are trying to bring "liberal" progression into it. Try keeping it on a political level instead of trying to make feeble attempts at declaring "liberalism" is better. The issue at hand isn't which ideology is better - it is about the politics(the game)."
But hey, if you want to wait until people catch up to you(as if you liberals are so far ahead and better than others:roll: ) then so be it. The democrats will keep losing with an attitude like that.
*shrug* Have it your way...

CsG

Gee, shall I give up this ridiculously idealistic struggle to free the slaves or sing another tune and win the election. Lets see, I have the option to be a moral piece of sh!t and compromise the lives of others and be comfortable myself, or I can choose a life of character and be disliked and loose a popularity contest. Now which person will I personally admire? "*shrug* Have it your way..." Yeah, I think I'll do that.

"The issue at hand isn't which ideology is better - it is about the politics(the game)"

Probably very honest and so very sad.