256 SSD just isn't enough for me. I would be much happier with a 512 personally. I know there is iCloud and external drives to assist, but I would still like to have the extra space internally. But nonetheless, its a great machine.
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Retina Macbook Pro Worth It?
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256 SSD just isn't enough for me. I would be much happier with a 512 personally. I know there is iCloud and external drives to assist, but I would still like to have the extra space internally. But nonetheless, its a great machine.
Writing custom software scaling algorithms because the GPU doesn't do want Apple needs natively (deal with screen resolutions up to 3840x2160) sounds like a hardware issue to me. Also, the CPU is decoding images that have now suddenly grown 4x in size, that's not a software issue.
runawayprisoner
Platinum Member
The GPU can deal with 3840 x 2400 just fine... since it can deal with up to 5 external displays on top of the internal Retina Display.
Most of the issue is actually with Apple trying to cap both the usage of CPU and GPU down to a minimum... so imagine they are trying to do all of those crazy scaling algorithms and keeping any of the 4 CPU cores under 50% utilization. The dedicated GPU never kicks in at all even while running a 3840 x 2400 desktop. It only kicks in when certain applications ask for it. It's an unrealistic situation.
In contrast, in Bootcamp, where nothing is held back, the rMBP flies. Literally so. There is no discernible interface lag, and DPI scaling under Windows works a treat. But battery life tanks... (down to 4 hours of usage) and the fan kicks in much more often.
I can understand their stance, though. Keeping CPU and GPU usage down helps battery life, and it does help keep the computer near silent even when running intensive high resolution applications. It's only when I start StarCraft 2 or Diablo 3 that things get rowdy.
Either way, their code has gotten much more efficient since the first release. 10.8.2 on the rMBP is almost lag-free. Save for the "thermal-throttle bug" caused by the latest EFI update. Other than that, I think the rMBP is worth its value if for nothing but that you get a 1920 x 1200 desktop on a 15" laptop that weighs less than the 13" MBP.
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I think it is just 3 external displays. The 2 thunderbolt ports are off of the same Thunderbolt chip, so it only supports 2 displayport channels. But, you can also use the HDMI port, so you can have 2 27" Thunderbolt Displays connected along with a 1080p display.
runawayprisoner
Platinum Member
It's 5. There are USB 3.0 to HDMI adapters:
http://www.engadget.com/2011/09/13/displaylink-announces-usb-3-0-to-hdmi-adapter-2560-x-1600-resol/
Perhaps only possible under Windows since those adapters may not work with OSX.
At that point the GPU shouldn't be involved. If it is USB 3, then that is all CPU driving it.
So I went into the Apple Store today to play with the Retina Hands on before custom ordering thru the Online Store. A few things to note that I haven't seen much discussion on is when you pinch to zoom in you see a temp lag for rendering and also the frame rates were below 20 fps on some websites. I find that irritating for a 2,200 base price machine but you can't have everything perfect. I also notified the arrow keys sometimes didn't work in text boxes and in TextExpander (Shortkeys) for Mac. Anyone else experiencing any of these issues? Other than that, the machine is flawless.
RampantAndroid
Diamond Member
The low framerate is because the discrete GPU isn't being fire up, afaik. There's a setting for that, but it'll hurt battery life.
runawayprisoner
Platinum Member
And it's actually the CPU doing most of the work.
The GPU is barely used if at all. Scrolling, drawing interface, etc... still get CPU usage up in Activity Monitor.
It's only when you do fullscreen animations that the GPU kicks in. But even then, the CPU still shares part of the burden.
There is a weird bug with the new EFI update in the rMBP that causes the CPU to get stuck at 1.2GHz...
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1452267&highlight=efi
Pretty much any rMBP running continuously for a long time without shutting down (going to sleep and hibernating don't count as "shutting down").
In fact, restarting or shutting down for any amount of time doesn't do anything either. The CPU just gets stuck permanently at 1.2GHz until SMC is reset on the machine, and it runs smooth again.
No, please stop spreading FUD. It's NOT because of the GPU.
You can force the HD4000 GPU to run all the time and the rMBP would not lag.
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You had said that the GPU is beefy because it can support 5 displays. I am countering that the GPU can only drive 3. You stated 'nuh uh, with USB adapters it is 5!'. Which I countered in turn by stating that if is a USB display adapter then the GPU isn't involved, not even a little bit.
I know how a computer works at a low level (not the lowest level though, don't talk about instructions sets and pipeline depths, that goes right over my head) I know that the CPU feeds the instructions to the GPU, so if you want to argue that the CPU is the one doing most of the work, you could be correct in a sense.
EXCEPT! OS X has had, since day 1, a composited interface that was GPU accelerated. It wasn't until at least Tiger or Leopard that it finally got really good, but it has always been there, in the core of the OS, that the interface would be fully handled by the GPU. Why do you think Apple cut off support for older Macs with old crummy intel graphics? Their GPUs couldn't support the features that Apple needed them to support to provide the experience Apple wanted them to provide.
The rMBP stutters, which is a shame. Whether it is CPU or GPU causing the problem doesn't matter, because as others have pointed out, it is a $2200 (BASE!) machine, which by all accounts should be silky smooth all the time, not just when it feels like it.
runawayprisoner
Platinum Member
GPU composited means the GPU chimes in for certain things that the CPU can't do. It's not like the GPU can ever fully take over for everything.
For instance, the GPU can't render a website. That task has to be done on the CPU. Every time you zoom in a website in Safari, the GPU does the animation, but the rendering is done on the CPU once the animation is over. When you are zoomed in and you try to scroll, the GPU animates what the CPU has rendered, but if it has reached a region that the CPU has not rendered, the CPU will continue to render that region, which causes scrolling to drop framerates. This is most evident in TechCrunch's website, or any website which uses JavaScript to dynamically render contents.
If you don't believe me, open up Activity Monitor, on any Mac, and try to scroll or zoom in Safari on any website, see if CPU usage does not jump up.
And note that I mentioned the EFI bug. That's what would cause a huge drop in performance because it really locks your rMBP to 1.2GHz and never allows the rMBP to scale up. Only an SMC reset will help.
And you can easily lay out 5 AutoCAD or Maya windows on 5 different monitors connected to the rMBP. It's still the 650M rendering everything in those AutoCAD and Maya windows. That's what I meant.
The rMBP is indeed a $2200 computer, and for the most part, it behaves like one. I'm just explaining why it may lag. Most of it has to do more with Apple and less with OSX, but it's not like OSX is completely innocent. I don't want to brag about it... but I have written enough codes for Apple platforms to realize that OSX still has a way to go in terms of optimizations. If you want to bring up an example of good composited interface, try iOS.
But despite the issues, which are admittedly minor, I'd still say the rMBP is worth it. When you are lost in your work, be it coding, image manipulating, AutoCAD, or something else, then you won't care about the slight occasional interface lag at all. That is... unless your workflow consists of you using just Safari and visiting multiple websites. Plus Mountain Lion has tremendously improved on Lion in terms of mitigating the lag.
If nothing else, you're still getting 1920 x 1200 workspace on a 15" MacBook. That alone is more important to me than anything else. Thinner chassis, better screen viewing angle, USB ports to both sides, etc... are just icing on the cake.
Prior to the EFI update, your rMBP may freeze completely if CPU is taxed beyond a certain point.
After the EFI update, it should stop doing that, but... it may throttle down a lot instead...
We never get the happy end of the stick. 🙁
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Rubycon
Madame President
How do I know if I have the latest EFI update?
Throttling back is not good. I have several Win VMs in Parallels. Will firing up CPUID tell me if this is the case or do you have any utilities that run in OSX that will also show this?
runawayprisoner
Platinum Member
If you go to Software Update and you see no update, then you have the latest EFI update.
I haven't tried it in Parallels, but CPU-Z should show the CPU frequency in Bootcamp.
I haven't tried it in Parallels, but CPU-Z should show the CPU frequency in Bootcamp.
Running 3 displays at native resolution is not the same as running a buffer at an extremely high resolution then super sampling pixels down to a lower resolution. The latter is far more resource intensive than the former.
Regardless, the ideal way is for there to be no CPU/GPU-accelerated software algorithms and the GPU handles everything. We know that's not happening, so I'd say the lack of a pure-GPU solution is leading the CPU to be overloaded with work it can't handle smoothly 100% of the time.
I also think because of the lag problems, the question really is "Is the Retina MacBook Pro worth buying now or waiting a year to see if the problems are fixed?" because there's no one on this board who is saying that the screen isn't the most amazing laptop screen on the planet, nor is the premium really that high compared to the normal cost of a 15" MacBook Pro.
Regardless, the ideal way is for there to be no CPU/GPU-accelerated software algorithms and the GPU handles everything. We know that's not happening, so I'd say the lack of a pure-GPU solution is leading the CPU to be overloaded with work it can't handle smoothly 100% of the time.
I also think because of the lag problems, the question really is "Is the Retina MacBook Pro worth buying now or waiting a year to see if the problems are fixed?" because there's no one on this board who is saying that the screen isn't the most amazing laptop screen on the planet, nor is the premium really that high compared to the normal cost of a 15" MacBook Pro.
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runawayprisoner
Platinum Member
I don't think that's the question. The question really is... "do you want to have a better display now, or do you want to wait another year?"
You are assuming that there is still a lag problem. But there isn't. Apple has already fixed most of it by 10.8.2. Any remaining "lag" on the rMBP isn't any worse than the same lag you can find on a 17" 2011 MBP. I know because I have compared them side by side. I have had my rMBP at 1920 x 1200 scaled mode since over 2 months ago. Ever since Lion. It was bad in Lion... but after 10.8.2, things fly. If not for the occasional trouble caused by the EFI bug, this computer would be perfect.
Honestly, until you really own and work with the machine, you really don't know what you are not "seeing".
I only mentioned the CPU being the limiting factor because there is a growing misconception that the rMBP 13" would suck and lag to infinity without a dedicated GPU. That's not the case.
You are assuming that there is still a lag problem. But there isn't. Apple has already fixed most of it by 10.8.2. Any remaining "lag" on the rMBP isn't any worse than the same lag you can find on a 17" 2011 MBP. I know because I have compared them side by side. I have had my rMBP at 1920 x 1200 scaled mode since over 2 months ago. Ever since Lion. It was bad in Lion... but after 10.8.2, things fly. If not for the occasional trouble caused by the EFI bug, this computer would be perfect.
Honestly, until you really own and work with the machine, you really don't know what you are not "seeing".
I only mentioned the CPU being the limiting factor because there is a growing misconception that the rMBP 13" would suck and lag to infinity without a dedicated GPU. That's not the case.
runawayprisoner
Platinum Member
Two words: overpriced & underpowered.
I completely agree with you 100%.
runawayprisoner
Platinum Member
So I may be biased (since I own a 15" rMBP), but I think the 15" rMBP is much better value for your money. If for nothing but that it has better specs, and the screen has more pixels.
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