Rethinking Marx

[JS80]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: SickBeast
First of all, socialism is necessary in a capitalist society as it acts as a safety net for the people who lose their shirts. It would take a very callous group of people to let their brethren starve to death just because they lost their job due to a layoff situation.

As for the comparisons to France, it's quite interesting. The French actually as much per hour as people in the US, but they work less hours per week. They wind up with a longer life expectancy and a higher quality of life.

For all the nay-sayers to socialism: Look to France as an example where it worked. Their system is about as far to the "left" as you can get without going to communism, yet they still have a strong country and an amazing society and culture.

France does not "work." France is more broken than the US.

Maybe in your opinion. They certainly have a stronger currency, and did not have as severe a market meltdown (or a mortgage crisis).

They're certainly not an example of a country that was "ruined by socialism" as others in here have suggested.

Are you fucking kidding me? Do you not follow the news? France is fuxored. Look at the damn news.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: SickBeast
First of all, socialism is necessary in a capitalist society as it acts as a safety net for the people who lose their shirts. It would take a very callous group of people to let their brethren starve to death just because they lost their job due to a layoff situation.

As for the comparisons to France, it's quite interesting. The French actually as much per hour as people in the US, but they work less hours per week. They wind up with a longer life expectancy and a higher quality of life.

For all the nay-sayers to socialism: Look to France as an example where it worked. Their system is about as far to the "left" as you can get without going to communism, yet they still have a strong country and an amazing society and culture.

France does not "work." France is more broken than the US.

Maybe in your opinion. They certainly have a stronger currency, and did not have as severe a market meltdown (or a mortgage crisis).

They're certainly not an example of a country that was "ruined by socialism" as others in here have suggested.

Are you fucking kidding me? Do you not follow the news? France is fuxored. Look at the damn news.

You have it wrong. Those people are celebrating.

And everyone in Cuba is an artist and a singer and they all drive fancy old cars, and the rivers run with chocolate and the children skip in meadows of lollipops.

Sickbeast will swear to it. He's been there.

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: SickBeast
First of all, socialism is necessary in a capitalist society as it acts as a safety net for the people who lose their shirts. It would take a very callous group of people to let their brethren starve to death just because they lost their job due to a layoff situation.

As for the comparisons to France, it's quite interesting. The French actually as much per hour as people in the US, but they work less hours per week. They wind up with a longer life expectancy and a higher quality of life.

For all the nay-sayers to socialism: Look to France as an example where it worked. Their system is about as far to the "left" as you can get without going to communism, yet they still have a strong country and an amazing society and culture.

France does not "work." France is more broken than the US.

Maybe in your opinion. They certainly have a stronger currency, and did not have as severe a market meltdown (or a mortgage crisis).

They're certainly not an example of a country that was "ruined by socialism" as others in here have suggested.

Are you fucking kidding me? Do you not follow the news? France is fuxored. Look at the damn news.

You have it wrong. Those people are celebrating.

And everyone in Cuba is an artist and a singer and they all drive fancy old cars, and the rivers run with chocolate and the children skip in meadows of lollipops.

Sickbeast will swear to it. He's been there.

I've also been to France where they are not ruled by Corporate America. They have a distinct and vibrant culture, unlike here where every town has a Wal-Mart, a Staples, a McDonalds, etc.

It could be argued that if they worked a 40 hour work week in France, their GDP per capita would equal that of the US. So much for socialism ruining the economy. :roll:

Cuba has the richest culture of anywhere I have been, and I have traveled extensively. Please don't get me started; that topic will lead to eternal flaming.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: SickBeast
First of all, socialism is necessary in a capitalist society as it acts as a safety net for the people who lose their shirts. It would take a very callous group of people to let their brethren starve to death just because they lost their job due to a layoff situation.

As for the comparisons to France, it's quite interesting. The French actually as much per hour as people in the US, but they work less hours per week. They wind up with a longer life expectancy and a higher quality of life.

For all the nay-sayers to socialism: Look to France as an example where it worked. Their system is about as far to the "left" as you can get without going to communism, yet they still have a strong country and an amazing society and culture.

France does not "work." France is more broken than the US.

Maybe in your opinion. They certainly have a stronger currency, and did not have as severe a market meltdown (or a mortgage crisis).

They're certainly not an example of a country that was "ruined by socialism" as others in here have suggested.

Are you fucking kidding me? Do you not follow the news? France is fuxored. Look at the damn news.

You have it wrong. Those people are celebrating.

And everyone in Cuba is an artist and a singer and they all drive fancy old cars, and the rivers run with chocolate and the children skip in meadows of lollipops.

Sickbeast will swear to it. He's been there.

I've also been to France where they are not ruled by Corporate America. They have a distinct and vibrant culture, unlike here where every town has a Wal-Mart, a Staples, a McDonalds, etc.

It could be argued that if they worked a 40 hour work week in France, their GDP per capita would equal that of the US. So much for socialism ruining the economy. :roll:

Cuba has the richest culture of anywhere I have been, and I have traveled extensively. Please don't get me started; that topic will lead to eternal flaming.

all i can do is :laugh: at your ignorance. oh wait you're canadian. I actually feel half sorry for you.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: SickBeast
First of all, socialism is necessary in a capitalist society as it acts as a safety net for the people who lose their shirts. It would take a very callous group of people to let their brethren starve to death just because they lost their job due to a layoff situation.

As for the comparisons to France, it's quite interesting. The French actually as much per hour as people in the US, but they work less hours per week. They wind up with a longer life expectancy and a higher quality of life.

For all the nay-sayers to socialism: Look to France as an example where it worked. Their system is about as far to the "left" as you can get without going to communism, yet they still have a strong country and an amazing society and culture.

I agree that having the state take care of unemployment insurance and providing a safety net is fine. But I dont consider that socialism and France elected a more right winged open market govt a couple of years ago that is working to abolish their silly labor laws and let people work 40 hours again.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: SickBeast
First of all, socialism is necessary in a capitalist society as it acts as a safety net for the people who lose their shirts. It would take a very callous group of people to let their brethren starve to death just because they lost their job due to a layoff situation.

As for the comparisons to France, it's quite interesting. The French actually as much per hour as people in the US, but they work less hours per week. They wind up with a longer life expectancy and a higher quality of life.

For all the nay-sayers to socialism: Look to France as an example where it worked. Their system is about as far to the "left" as you can get without going to communism, yet they still have a strong country and an amazing society and culture.

France does not "work." France is more broken than the US.

Maybe in your opinion. They certainly have a stronger currency, and did not have as severe a market meltdown (or a mortgage crisis).

They're certainly not an example of a country that was "ruined by socialism" as others in here have suggested.

Are you fucking kidding me? Do you not follow the news? France is fuxored. Look at the damn news.

You have it wrong. Those people are celebrating.

And everyone in Cuba is an artist and a singer and they all drive fancy old cars, and the rivers run with chocolate and the children skip in meadows of lollipops.

Sickbeast will swear to it. He's been there.

:laugh:

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: SickBeast
First of all, socialism is necessary in a capitalist society as it acts as a safety net for the people who lose their shirts. It would take a very callous group of people to let their brethren starve to death just because they lost their job due to a layoff situation.

As for the comparisons to France, it's quite interesting. The French actually as much per hour as people in the US, but they work less hours per week. They wind up with a longer life expectancy and a higher quality of life.

For all the nay-sayers to socialism: Look to France as an example where it worked. Their system is about as far to the "left" as you can get without going to communism, yet they still have a strong country and an amazing society and culture.

France does not "work." France is more broken than the US.

Maybe in your opinion. They certainly have a stronger currency, and did not have as severe a market meltdown (or a mortgage crisis).

They're certainly not an example of a country that was "ruined by socialism" as others in here have suggested.

Are you fucking kidding me? Do you not follow the news? France is fuxored. Look at the damn news.

You have it wrong. Those people are celebrating.

And everyone in Cuba is an artist and a singer and they all drive fancy old cars, and the rivers run with chocolate and the children skip in meadows of lollipops.

Sickbeast will swear to it. He's been there.

I've also been to France where they are not ruled by Corporate America. They have a distinct and vibrant culture, unlike here where every town has a Wal-Mart, a Staples, a McDonalds, etc.

It could be argued that if they worked a 40 hour work week in France, their GDP per capita would equal that of the US. So much for socialism ruining the economy. :roll:

Cuba has the richest culture of anywhere I have been, and I have traveled extensively. Please don't get me started; that topic will lead to eternal flaming.

all i can do is :laugh: at your ignorance. oh wait you're canadian. I actually feel half sorry for you.

I actually live a life of privledge here. There's nothing to feel sorry for me about. Our countries are very similar. The money you save on taxes is squandered on health insurance, plus I get way cheaper university tuition. It's colder here. If you live in California or something and want to feel sorry for me for being cold right now, fine. If I wanted to move to the US I would; it's not that hard to do, especially with my education and work experience.

I suppose I could mock your ignorance for listening to your government and your media which tells you that socialism is somehow "Un-American". That crap is the same reason why Bush was elected twice. You should learn to think for yourself.

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: SickBeast
First of all, socialism is necessary in a capitalist society as it acts as a safety net for the people who lose their shirts. It would take a very callous group of people to let their brethren starve to death just because they lost their job due to a layoff situation.

As for the comparisons to France, it's quite interesting. The French actually as much per hour as people in the US, but they work less hours per week. They wind up with a longer life expectancy and a higher quality of life.

For all the nay-sayers to socialism: Look to France as an example where it worked. Their system is about as far to the "left" as you can get without going to communism, yet they still have a strong country and an amazing society and culture.

I agree that having the state take care of unemployment insurance and providing a safety net is fine. But I dont consider that socialism and France elected a more right winged open market govt a couple of years ago that is working to abolish their silly labor laws and let people work 40 hours again.

You can disagree with it all you want. The statistics have consistantly proven that in France people earn as much per hour as Americans in terms of GDP. In fact, a few years back, they exceeded the US by a pretty good clip. France essentially has proven that socialism, if implemented properly, can benefit everyone and will not cripple the economy.

I work a 30 hour workweek and love it. I've done the 40-50 hour grind, and seriously, I'm way healthier now, and I consider myself a far more successful person in terms of my overall life situation.

 

[Ozoned]

Socialist: You got way to much shit and your greedy. We are going to take your shit, and give it to people that need it more than you do. We are going to take your guns, also.

Capitalist: Huh??? (Pulls out gun, shoots Socialist in head.)


Socialism fails...

 

[imported_K3N]

Originally posted by: Ozoned
Socialist: You got way to much shit and your greedy. We are going to take your shit, and give it to people that need it more than you do. We are going to take your guns, also.

Capitalist: Huh??? (Pulls out gun, shoots Socialist in head.)


Socialism fails...

it's this kind of mentality that makes me wonder if the human race will last another 100 years.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed
Why I Am a Douchebag

nt.

 

[Steeplerot]

Thanks for your show of maturity PH.

Anyhow, a highly recommended read with no archaic jargon that sealed the deal for me so long ago is ABCs of Libertarian Socialism (1929) it can be read online for those who are interested in advanced theories of Left thought, lot of good points in there as to why the US Left is so neutered and it becomes obvious why Democrats become more ineffectual as they move away from this type of Left wing thought and more reactionary.

Along with the expected critiques of Marxist Socialism, the USSR (Author was forcefully deported from USA by the Government here to Russia back then so he saw the betrayal of the Revolution by the Bolsheviks firsthand).
For those on the Left (or even the curious Right) who are into this level of political/Historical reading -enjoy.

 

[Acanthus]

Strange how the Righties can always claim they know the way to prosperity.

Fact:

Every recession in the last 60 years was under republican rule.

Fact:

Periods of democratic rule have seen more GDP growth historically than under republican rule.

 

[OCGuy]

Yes, this thread really needed to be bumped by the OP.



:roll:

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Yes, this thread really needed to be bumped by the OP.



:roll:

I was out of town and the thread died, sorry to offend your delicate sensibilities of what should/should not be bumped my friend, sorry you do not approve.

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: Skoorb
There are problems now and positives to parts of socialism but the fact is the US has become the wealthiest nation on the planet by adhereing in great part to capitalism and this has helped the average joe, too. The reality is that capitalism has proven itself as fairly effective if not perfect and socialism has yet to do so, but it has proven it's capable of destroying countries.

You are talking of Communism, there have been and still are Socialists parties and successful countries that admit or even have aspects of Socialism in their constitutions everywhere.

Socialism is a mixed market system based on keeping a balance.

And how much of Americas wealth is because of Left reforms since Roosevelt?
I remind you since FDR we have become the superpower that we are.
Do the lefts ideas deserve no credit?

I am curious, what example of countries destroyed by Socialism do you mean? Without intervention and meddling by forces of imperialism and corporations of course.

If you don't think the Soviet Union destroyed itself--and many OTHER NATIONS through Socialism then you should really pool the wool from your eyes.

The US survived under socialism for only a very brief time: The New Deal. It was a dire emergency and arguably necessary at the time. And that certainly is not what lead us to being a superpower--it was the obliteration of the former superpowers in the aftermath of WW2. Our infrastructure remained completely intact and so we never had that rebuilding period that the other players had to endure.

There is some good to come out of socialism, but the inherent problems are that when you remove competition you destroy innovation, and thus progress, and you remain in stasis. When you squander the talents of the workforce by trapping them within government-mandated positions and maintain ceiling towards progress, you inevitably end up with corruption. Rampant corruption. Nothing works.

In small amounts, socialism has been successfully implemented into several world governments, but it could never be a true system of government. The simple reality is that as humans, we are not all "equal." I'm talking about talents and aptitude; not basic human rights.

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Carmen813
Cad,
I think arguing that socialism will fail because of human nature is awfully short-sighted given that our banking system just failed due to human greed. Not saying your stance is without merit, but I think that's a pretty terrible example to use, especially right now.

Eh? Are you confused? Just because something else(something you don't seem to understand anyway) isn't perfect has ZERO bearing on why socialism fails.

The point is that human nature can lead to failure under any system. That's why the point is invalid due to null correlation.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Acanthus
Strange how the Righties can always claim they know the way to prosperity.

Fact:

Every recession in the last 60 years was under republican rule.

Fact:

Periods of democratic rule have seen more GDP growth historically than under republican rule.

Such simple concepts lost in this modern age.
Big business has it's own best interests at heart, not the workers who produce what actually makes them exist, the two will ALWAYS be in conflict with one another, the question is: whos side are you on?
Millions of people "work hard" so where are these millions that suddenly happen in this country for such work?
And of course we are all in this together is a quaint term.

Very hard to get a PoV of rational sound policy that has worked for so long now that big corps own the media and set the tone for the debate.
No surprise thanks to deregulation media monopolies have sprung up and the workers are now told corporations are their saviors, all the time the workers wages go down while they enrich themselves.

Nothing new under the sun. Same old capitalist scam from centuries ago.

What is most pathetic is the kissing up to big business by the Right in hopes they will suddenly be part of the "rich club" someday like some scrap tossed down from a master.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Yes, this thread really needed to be bumped by the OP.



:roll:

I was out of town and the thread died, sorry to offend your delicate sensibilities of what should/should not be bumped my friend, sorry you do not approve.

There is a reason it died. Now dont try and be the next Dave by bumping your worthless threads.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: Skoorb
There are problems now and positives to parts of socialism but the fact is the US has become the wealthiest nation on the planet by adhereing in great part to capitalism and this has helped the average joe, too. The reality is that capitalism has proven itself as fairly effective if not perfect and socialism has yet to do so, but it has proven it's capable of destroying countries.

You are talking of Communism, there have been and still are Socialists parties and successful countries that admit or even have aspects of Socialism in their constitutions everywhere.

Socialism is a mixed market system based on keeping a balance.

And how much of Americas wealth is because of Left reforms since Roosevelt?
I remind you since FDR we have become the superpower that we are.
Do the lefts ideas deserve no credit?

I am curious, what example of countries destroyed by Socialism do you mean? Without intervention and meddling by forces of imperialism and corporations of course.

If you don't think the Soviet Union destroyed itself--and many OTHER NATIONS through Socialism then you should really pool the wool from your eyes.

The US survived under socialism for only a very brief time: The New Deal. It was a dire emergency and arguably necessary at the time. And that certainly is not what lead us to being a superpower--it was the obliteration of the former superpowers in the aftermath of WW2. Our infrastructure remained completely intact and so we never had that rebuilding period that the other players had to endure.

There is some good to come out of socialism, but the inherent problems are that when you remove competition you destroy innovation, and thus progress, and you remain in stasis. When you squander the talents of the workforce by trapping them within government-mandated positions and maintain ceiling towards progress, you inevitably end up with corruption. Rampant corruption. Nothing works.

In small amounts, socialism has been successfully implemented into several world governments, but it could never be a true system of government. The simple reality is that as humans, we are not all "equal." I'm talking about talents and aptitude; not basic human rights.

The USSR was not a Socialist country. It was a State Capitalist system run by a dictatorship.


And as far as the bureaucracy and lack of innovation you state, I agree, the dictatorship of the workers led by a vanguard party is the biggest flaw of Marxism, it helped create the mess of what became the USSR. It is also what split the Left back in Marx's day into the two camps The Marxist Socialists and the Libertarian camp (Bakunin).

One of the biggest tragedies of the October Revolution is that the workers of Russia who really fought to free themselves from Capitalism was the Libertarian camp.
As soon as the Bolshevik got into power they instituted the worst part of Marxist theory to usurp power from a Democratic workers revolution to themselves.
(And then of course put the libertarian types into the gulag who won the revolution for them)
All the while setting up a new market system, wage scales for party members and the rest of the nightmare that became the USSR.

I agree with most of your points, but point out that you are labeling "Socialism" with a broad brush that only includes the worst aspects of Marxism.

 

[Steeplerot]

Also, I keep seeing the same old talking point about human nature=greed.
Human nature is not something that you can define easily, it changes according to a society's material conditions and inherent needs.

Also "Human nature", which is being equated to Greed only exists as long as the incentive or social conditioning for it exists, which in our consumerist culture is a given.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Yes, this thread really needed to be bumped by the OP.



:roll:

I was out of town and the thread died, sorry to offend your delicate sensibilities of what should/should not be bumped my friend, sorry you do not approve.

There is a reason it died. Now dont try and be the next Dave by bumping your worthless threads.

If mods wish to not have political theory and it's history discussed and keep this forum only for repeating of trivial daily news stories they would close it.

If you feel the subject matter is above your head or offends you in any way you are free to move on -I did not expect this to be the most popular of the threads.
If anything it is you (and your RW ilk who balk at the mention of the S word) being like Dave here by inserting pointless inane comments.

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

The USSR was not a Socialist country. It was a State Capitalist system run by a dictatorship.

In a nutshell, this is why you fail miserably. You know nothing.

And before you make a comment about "adding" to the topic or explaining my position, nothing needs to be added or explained. Your quote speaks volumes for itself.

 

[blackangst1]

ATP&N seems to be turning into people personal blogs...

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

The USSR was not a Socialist country. It was a State Capitalist system run by a dictatorship.

In a nutshell, this is why you fail miserably. You know nothing.

And before you make a comment about "adding" to the topic or explaining my position, nothing needs to be added or explained. Your quote speaks volumes for itself.

In other words you have no clue, but generally just want to disagree with anything.

Well, at least you did it without throwing a fit or swearing.