Rethinking Marx

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed
We have a Socialist Senator now, something like this has not happened/been possible thanks to Govt repression since the 30s.

What is this repression of which you speak?

The repression of Labor from the 1920's, beatings, killings, deportations, imprisoning all the way up to the MCarthy era witchunts.

It still continues today with right wing radio blaming everything on "Socialism".

Socialism scares the hell out of the people in power, for they fear the peoples power.

"The people's power"? Wheren't you just saying in this thread that the people (specifically, black and Latino people) only voted for Prop 8 in Cali because they were misled by religious organizations and were (by your implication) unable to come to the proper, clear-minded conclusions you yourself easily reach, bespite these shadowy and overpowering corporate influences?

You self-proclaimed 'socialists' are such frauds - on the one hand, you spout on and on about "the people's power", suggesting they're intelligent enough to govern and decide major issues for themselves, but deep down, you don't really believe it, and attribute any sort of outcome with which you don't agree to some nefarious outside influence, thereby revealing what you really believe - that the people are like ignorant children, unable to think for themselves when faced with the influences of religion, corporations, etc. And of course, elites such as yourselves never fall into these same traps. What a bunch of hooey.

Ouch, smacked down hard.

Hardly, using money to influence politics (corruption) I addressed already. Religion is a monopoly of sorts used as a tool to divide workers, and intolerance is anti-Socialist to the core anyhow.
Prop 8 should go down in flames as it is a injustice, if we do not have justice and equality on a human rights level then how are we to enjoy our freedoms?

 

[Steeplerot]

And for the trolls coming in personally attacking me, thank you I am fine. Probably better off then you guys in corporate jobs (if you even work seeing how much you post) as I work for myself in a recession proof industry. :lips:

Now stop making silly troll comments and go take the trash out for your mommy before Limbaugh comes back on, or she will not bring you down your cheetos into the basement.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: K3N

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: K3N

Originally posted by: Carmen813
Cad,
I think arguing that socialism will fail because of human nature is awfully short-sighted given that our banking system just failed due to human greed. Not saying your stance is without merit, but I think that's a pretty terrible example to use, especially right now.

right on point. humans are greedy because of the environment they are raised in , rewards them with money/wealth. similar to how people are bigots due to their parents raising them that way.

The main flaw with the "free" market system is that it rewards scarcity and at the same time it punishes abundance. What if robots in the future were able to replace human labor like surgeons, and burger flippers? How could you sustain a middle class under a "free" market system where everyone is supposed to fend for themselves?

If technology really gets to the point where robots can replace most menial human labor, our living standards would skyrocket and we'd all probably be space explorers and artists within 2 generations.

but how could living skyrocket if there weren't that many jobs (labor for money) for the people in this "free market system) ? How could commoners earn money where welfare is looked down upon?

It's no longer welfare nor transfer of wealth when robot production becomes cheap and efficient that the most basic things like food, housing, etc is free, people can just focus on being "creative" and shit.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: K3N

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
You are a socialist because you didnt get anywhere in life and want handouts.

you are a socialist when you value the well being of others instead of thriving on the misery of others (slave wage labor in china and vietnam)

slave wage vs no wage. you have a retarded perspective in life. So you ban Nike from employing vietnamese poor people, they no longer have jobs and they die. Great job.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

That doesn't address what I stated and you replied to.

None of those are pure socialism and each one of those is capitalistic which socialists think is unfair and concentrates weath and power.

Define your idea of "pure Socialism" then, without defining Communism/Leninism.

The problem here is your definition of Socialism is utterly flawed, and this is probably because your knowledge is light on Marx and heavy on Limbaugh.

I think the honus is on you since you seem to want to twist the definition or duhvert from it's definition when challenged/criticized.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

That doesn't address what I stated and you replied to.

None of those are pure socialism and each one of those is capitalistic which socialists think is unfair and concentrates weath and power.

Define your idea of "pure Socialism" then, without defining Communism/Leninism.

The problem here is your definition of Socialism is utterly flawed, and this is probably because your knowledge is light on Marx and heavy on Limbaugh.

I think the honus is on you since you seem to want to twist the definition or duhvert from it's definition when challenged/criticized.

Waiting for your definition of "pure" then. I will be more then happy to debate it.
Since you are telling us what Socialism is where to start?
Strictly Marxist? Lenin or Trotsky? What about Bakunin's Socialism and the First International? How about the more modern aspects of Libertarian Socialism or Syndicalistism? Define "Pure".
Here is a good place to start CaD. http://www.marxists.org/subject/students/index.htm

 

[imported_K3N]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: K3N

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
You are a socialist because you didnt get anywhere in life and want handouts.

you are a socialist when you value the well being of others instead of thriving on the misery of others (slave wage labor in china and vietnam)

slave wage vs no wage.

It's numbskulls like this, why poverty will continue to exist and human may never embraced advanced technology. I guess you'd say the same thing for slaves too right? One of the main reasons the average southerner was poorer than a northerner was because they relied on slave/ultra low wages and unfortunately for them their werent as industrial as the northerners.

 

[Xellos2099]

If you like France so much... what exactly is their unemployment rate? Much higher than USA I believe.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Xellos2099
If you like France so much... what exactly is their unemployment rate? Much higher than USA I believe.

Probably not much more since we do not count a lot of workers who "gave up" or who do not work at all.

I don't think anyone would ever know unless we had relief efforts and motivated all unemployed to collect somehow so they could be counted.

 

[OCGuy]

Why not just move to a socialist country? The US surely doesnt care what you have to say, and you arent going to change it.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: K3N

Originally posted by: Carmen813
Cad,
I think arguing that socialism will fail because of human nature is awfully short-sighted given that our banking system just failed due to human greed. Not saying your stance is without merit, but I think that's a pretty terrible example to use, especially right now.

right on point. humans are greedy because of the environment they are raised in , rewards them with money/wealth. similar to how people are bigots due to their parents raising them that way.

The main flaw with the "free" market system is that it rewards scarcity and at the same time it punishes abundance. What if robots in the future were able to replace human labor like surgeons, and burger flippers? How could you sustain a middle class under a "free" market system where everyone is supposed to fend for themselves?

Somebody has to build, run, repair, and program the robots.

Rewarding abundance is silly, makes no sense, and is illogical. If one can get something easily why would they pay a higher price than something they want equally as much but is harder to find?

Meh - other robots can do it. Even if that was impossible, people like me would do it just for something to do. If you can have anything you want for free why not just do what you love anyway?

Read the 'culture' novels by Iain M. Banks for a pretty detailed description of this kind of society. Also see Star Trek TNG, to a lesser extent...

Heh you think robots will be creative anytime soon?

 

[imported_K3N]

Originally posted by: Xellos2099
If you like France so much... what exactly is their unemployment rate? Much higher than USA I believe.

France is the epitome of EU cess pit laws, that's why.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: K3N

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: K3N

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
You are a socialist because you didnt get anywhere in life and want handouts.

you are a socialist when you value the well being of others instead of thriving on the misery of others (slave wage labor in china and vietnam)

slave wage vs no wage.

It's numbskulls like this, why poverty will continue to exist and human may never embraced advanced technology. I guess you'd say the same thing for slaves too right? One of the main reasons the average southerner was poorer than a northerner was because they relied on slave/ultra low wages and unfortunately for them their werent as industrial as the northerners.

You're the numbskull that can't comprehend market wage differences in currency purchasing power. If Nike is paying a worker $1 a day and that's all it takes to eat and provide for shelter, how is that slave wage?

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Why not just move to a socialist country? The US surely doesnt care what you have to say, and you arent going to change it.

Or so the Capitalists hope. But as long as people are entertained by TV and other shiny baubles made on the backs of others labor sold dirt cheap here you are probably right.
But don't count on our exploitation lasting forever.

 

[imported_K3N]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: K3N

Originally posted by: Carmen813
Cad,
I think arguing that socialism will fail because of human nature is awfully short-sighted given that our banking system just failed due to human greed. Not saying your stance is without merit, but I think that's a pretty terrible example to use, especially right now.

right on point. humans are greedy because of the environment they are raised in , rewards them with money/wealth. similar to how people are bigots due to their parents raising them that way.

The main flaw with the "free" market system is that it rewards scarcity and at the same time it punishes abundance. What if robots in the future were able to replace human labor like surgeons, and burger flippers? How could you sustain a middle class under a "free" market system where everyone is supposed to fend for themselves?

Somebody has to build, run, repair, and program the robots.

Rewarding abundance is silly, makes no sense, and is illogical. If one can get something easily why would they pay a higher price than something they want equally as much but is harder to find?

Meh - other robots can do it. Even if that was impossible, people like me would do it just for something to do. If you can have anything you want for free why not just do what you love anyway?

Read the 'culture' novels by Iain M. Banks for a pretty detailed description of this kind of society. Also see Star Trek TNG, to a lesser extent...

Heh you think robots will be creative anytime soon?

How could you sustain a middle class where robots replace 90% of the jobs and people are forced to work in a system in order to maintain their standard of living?

 

[Atheus]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Would you rather live in America or a country that has tried socialism?

Do Britain, France, and the Scandenavian countries count as socialist? If so I'd definately rather live in any of those places than America. The USA is nice to visit but you people are insane.

Implant those country with poor people and illegals, let's see how socialism works.

There is a huge amount of immigration here - those people work very hard.

Of course socialism will work in a place like beverly hills and you make immigration illegal. But if you include BH, compton, and all the suburbs in between, you get massive fail.

Well some might argue that socialist policies could do a lot for those areas. Just making sure all the kids have good medical care and go to school every day would be a good start to dismantling ghettos... some might argue...

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: K3N

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: K3N

Originally posted by: Carmen813
Cad,
I think arguing that socialism will fail because of human nature is awfully short-sighted given that our banking system just failed due to human greed. Not saying your stance is without merit, but I think that's a pretty terrible example to use, especially right now.

right on point. humans are greedy because of the environment they are raised in , rewards them with money/wealth. similar to how people are bigots due to their parents raising them that way.

The main flaw with the "free" market system is that it rewards scarcity and at the same time it punishes abundance. What if robots in the future were able to replace human labor like surgeons, and burger flippers? How could you sustain a middle class under a "free" market system where everyone is supposed to fend for themselves?

Somebody has to build, run, repair, and program the robots.

Rewarding abundance is silly, makes no sense, and is illogical. If one can get something easily why would they pay a higher price than something they want equally as much but is harder to find?

Meh - other robots can do it. Even if that was impossible, people like me would do it just for something to do. If you can have anything you want for free why not just do what you love anyway?

Read the 'culture' novels by Iain M. Banks for a pretty detailed description of this kind of society. Also see Star Trek TNG, to a lesser extent...

Heh you think robots will be creative anytime soon?

How could you sustain a middle class where robots replace 90% of the jobs and people are forced to work in a system in order to maintain their standard of living?

You are just priceless......please go comment in the UFO thread if you havent already. I cant wait

 

[imported_K3N]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: K3N

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: K3N

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
You are a socialist because you didnt get anywhere in life and want handouts.

you are a socialist when you value the well being of others instead of thriving on the misery of others (slave wage labor in china and vietnam)

slave wage vs no wage.

It's numbskulls like this, why poverty will continue to exist and human may never embraced advanced technology. I guess you'd say the same thing for slaves too right? One of the main reasons the average southerner was poorer than a northerner was because they relied on slave/ultra low wages and unfortunately for them their werent as industrial as the northerners.

You're the numbskull that can't comprehend market wage differences in currency purchasing power. If Nike is paying a worker $1 a day and that's all it takes to eat and provide for shelter, how is that slave wage?

so you think there is nothing wrong with a world where the top 1% own over 40% of the total wealth and over half of the world's population make less than 2$ a day? wow this numbskull just became number!

 

[Atheus]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Would you rather live in America or a country that has tried socialism?

Do Britain, France, and the Scandenavian countries count as socialist? If so I'd definately rather live in any of those places than America. The USA is nice to visit but you people are insane.

Britain is about to enter a major period of economic hurt.

And whose fault is that USA? Bleh. We'll get through it just like you will.

France is seeing massive social unrest in their Muslim immigrant population.

France always has strong unrest, they like it like that.

If the world does at some point get off of oil Norway's socialist utopia will collapse as it is heavily dependent on oil exports.

Unknown.

 

[Atheus]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: K3N

Originally posted by: Carmen813
Cad,
I think arguing that socialism will fail because of human nature is awfully short-sighted given that our banking system just failed due to human greed. Not saying your stance is without merit, but I think that's a pretty terrible example to use, especially right now.

right on point. humans are greedy because of the environment they are raised in , rewards them with money/wealth. similar to how people are bigots due to their parents raising them that way.

The main flaw with the "free" market system is that it rewards scarcity and at the same time it punishes abundance. What if robots in the future were able to replace human labor like surgeons, and burger flippers? How could you sustain a middle class under a "free" market system where everyone is supposed to fend for themselves?

Somebody has to build, run, repair, and program the robots.

Rewarding abundance is silly, makes no sense, and is illogical. If one can get something easily why would they pay a higher price than something they want equally as much but is harder to find?

Meh - other robots can do it. Even if that was impossible, people like me would do it just for something to do. If you can have anything you want for free why not just do what you love anyway?

Read the 'culture' novels by Iain M. Banks for a pretty detailed description of this kind of society. Also see Star Trek TNG, to a lesser extent...

Heh you think robots will be creative anytime soon?

Yea give it 50 years or so.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: K3N

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: K3N

Originally posted by: Carmen813
Cad,
I think arguing that socialism will fail because of human nature is awfully short-sighted given that our banking system just failed due to human greed. Not saying your stance is without merit, but I think that's a pretty terrible example to use, especially right now.

right on point. humans are greedy because of the environment they are raised in , rewards them with money/wealth. similar to how people are bigots due to their parents raising them that way.

The main flaw with the "free" market system is that it rewards scarcity and at the same time it punishes abundance. What if robots in the future were able to replace human labor like surgeons, and burger flippers? How could you sustain a middle class under a "free" market system where everyone is supposed to fend for themselves?

Somebody has to build, run, repair, and program the robots.

Rewarding abundance is silly, makes no sense, and is illogical. If one can get something easily why would they pay a higher price than something they want equally as much but is harder to find?

a system that reward abundance is a system where a high standard can be sustained for all. Why don't we have battery powered cars? because the oil industry would take a big hit. The idea that rewarding abundance is silly just goes to show how this "free" market gets the best of individuals.

I dont see how high quality and abundance are automatically hand in hand. Battery powered cars arent feasible because of costs due to scaricity of the resources required to build them. In your bizzaro world that scarce resource to build the batteries would be the cheap part in the system while the door handle the most expensive. Which would lead to everybody buying up the scarce resource and not able to build cars at a rate that abundant door handle is produced.

Humans compete with eachother instead of cooperating with each other, in the "Free" market, because of scarcity and the reward it comes with.

How do things get built in a free market? Of course humans work with each other. They also compete which drives innovation and lower costs to consumers.

The robots can build and repair eachother, DUH .

In a dream world.

But you havent answered my question. how could you sustain a middle class, where robots literally replace 90% of the occupation today (according to Zeitgeist addendum) in a "free" market MONETARY system???

I did but you obviously failed to understand it. That said your example was poor because it applied to a highly skilled niche market that isnt middle class anyways.

Robots in manufacturing is a more applicable example because the manufacturing workers displaced by robots are typically middle class. And Ill reiterate what happens. Instead of these people working on a production line they are designing,building, running, maintaining, and repairing those robots.

I dont understand why the free market is so hard for people to grasp. Instead people have to rely on unrealistic scenario's to paint pictures of the evils of the free market.

Tell me how great those closed markets ran in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: K3N

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
You are a socialist because you didnt get anywhere in life and want handouts.

you are a socialist when you value the well being of others instead of thriving on the misery of others (slave wage labor in china and vietnam)

Ironic you use two socialist countries as your example of slave labor or just sloppy thinking?

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: K3N

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: K3N

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
You are a socialist because you didnt get anywhere in life and want handouts.

you are a socialist when you value the well being of others instead of thriving on the misery of others (slave wage labor in china and vietnam)

slave wage vs no wage.

It's numbskulls like this, why poverty will continue to exist and human may never embraced advanced technology. I guess you'd say the same thing for slaves too right? One of the main reasons the average southerner was poorer than a northerner was because they relied on slave/ultra low wages and unfortunately for them their werent as industrial as the northerners.

You seem to forget the Southern states were also agricultural states which is why manufacutring didnt catch on as fast as the colder northern states.

Slaves and low cost workers are not one in the same. A low cost worker isnt owned by anybody and if desires to can walk off the job. The same couldnt be said for slaves in the south or anywhere around the globe.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: Xellos2099
If you like France so much... what exactly is their unemployment rate? Much higher than USA I believe.

Probably not much more since we do not count a lot of workers who "gave up" or who do not work at all.

I don't think anyone would ever know unless we had relief efforts and motivated all unemployed to collect somehow so they could be counted.

Neither does the EU. Unemployment rates are barometers of the labor market. Meaning they are measuring who wants to be employed. There isnt a reason to count somebody who isnt looking for a job in the labor market.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: K3N

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: K3N

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: K3N

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
You are a socialist because you didnt get anywhere in life and want handouts.

you are a socialist when you value the well being of others instead of thriving on the misery of others (slave wage labor in china and vietnam)

slave wage vs no wage.

It's numbskulls like this, why poverty will continue to exist and human may never embraced advanced technology. I guess you'd say the same thing for slaves too right? One of the main reasons the average southerner was poorer than a northerner was because they relied on slave/ultra low wages and unfortunately for them their werent as industrial as the northerners.

You're the numbskull that can't comprehend market wage differences in currency purchasing power. If Nike is paying a worker $1 a day and that's all it takes to eat and provide for shelter, how is that slave wage?

so you think there is nothing wrong with a world where the top 1% own over 40% of the total wealth and over half of the world's population make less than 2$ a day? wow this numbskull just became number!

It would be great if everyone got As, but guess what, a few people get As, some get Bc, most get Cs, few get Ds, and rarely some get Fs. That's life