Rethinking Marx

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

That doesn't change why socialism fails.

Last I checked it is the Republican party that failed miserably in recent years.

Nice try.

lol, so your defense of socialism is that you think Rs suck? Wow, some deep thinking... :roll:

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Genx87
then talk about the direct democracy stateless utopia known as communism? Socialism was the 2nd step which nobody got past because the 3rd step was even more absurd and unrealistic.

I already said, the debate is not about Communism, Marx wrote many more books then Manifesto, which is utopian when interpreted in that aspect, Socialists do not subscribe to many parts of Marx later rewritten, such as violent overthrow by workers. This is mainly Leninism.

 

[Atreus21]

Spare us the references to USSR and other failed State Capitalist totalitarian failures. They have 0% relevance to this thread.

Sorry, no can do. That is the measuring stick of socialist policies.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

That doesn't change why socialism fails.

Last I checked it is the Republican party that failed miserably in recent years.

Nice try.

lol, so your defense of socialism is that you think Rs suck? Wow, some deep thinking... :roll:

Well, you say it fails with no real argument of it failing. Socialist parties are winning favor worldwide, whereas right-wing parties are losing favor.
Explain your broad reaching statement then of Socialism failing if the opposition is not popular in the eyes of the people anymore except for a minority in USA who are swayed by corporate owned talk radio.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Spare us the references to USSR and other failed State Capitalist totalitarian failures. They have 0% relevance to this thread.

Sorry, no can do. That is the measuring stick of socialist policies.

Then you need to read more. USSR has no relevance of Socialist policies. Most historians will tell you straight up that USSR gave up its Socialist principals from before even Lenin died or the revolution was won in Russia.

By the time Stalin came to power it was a utter embarrassment to the left worldwide and many left-wing thinkers became persecuted for the Bolsheviks power hungry grab.

In other words, Socialists who promote Democracy as a foundation have been given a bad rap since.

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: Carmen813
Cad,
I think arguing that socialism will fail because of human nature is awfully short-sighted given that our banking system just failed due to human greed. Not saying your stance is without merit, but I think that's a pretty terrible example to use, especially right now.

Our banking system didn't fail because of human greed. Our banking system failed because of the sub-prime crisis, which was brought about by government intervention.

That can be attributed to socialist thought.

 

[miketheidiot]

cad, what the hell are you rambling about? Why do you keep going back to authoritarian communism, when that is not what he is talking about?

It would be like me prognosticating on the failures of free markets due to the failure of any anarcho-capitalist 'state' to succeed.

Socialism is a major tenant of the governing philosophy of every major developed country in the world, as are free markets. When each is used in the correct place, both can and have improved society.

In summary, stop being a reactionary tool.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: Carmen813
Cad,
I think arguing that socialism will fail because of human nature is awfully short-sighted given that our banking system just failed due to human greed. Not saying your stance is without merit, but I think that's a pretty terrible example to use, especially right now.

Our banking system didn't fail because of human greed. Our banking system failed because of the sub-prime crisis, which was brought about by government intervention.

That can be attributed to socialist thought.

you clearly know little of what caused the subprime crisis.

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Spare us the references to USSR and other failed State Capitalist totalitarian failures. They have 0% relevance to this thread.

Sorry, no can do. That is the measuring stick of socialist policies.

Then you need to read more. USSR has no relevance of Socialist policies. Most historians will tell you straight up that USSR gave up its Socialist principals from before even Lenin died or the revolution was won in Russia.

Link please. Anything to prove this.

USSR gave up it's socialist principles in 1991.

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: Carmen813
Cad,
I think arguing that socialism will fail because of human nature is awfully short-sighted given that our banking system just failed due to human greed. Not saying your stance is without merit, but I think that's a pretty terrible example to use, especially right now.

Our banking system didn't fail because of human greed. Our banking system failed because of the sub-prime crisis, which was brought about by government intervention.

That can be attributed to socialist thought.

you clearly know little of what caused the subprime crisis.

After the CRA and its expansion, I don't know how you can prove otherwise.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Spare us the references to USSR and other failed State Capitalist totalitarian failures. They have 0% relevance to this thread.

Sorry, no can do. That is the measuring stick of socialist policies.

What socialist policies did the ussr ever implement? Central planning would be about as close as you could get (which really isn't a socialist policy), otherwise it was just a military dictatorship with ideological pretensions.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

That doesn't change why socialism fails.

Last I checked it is the Republican party that failed miserably in recent years.

Nice try.

lol, so your defense of socialism is that you think Rs suck? Wow, some deep thinking... :roll:

Well, you say it fails with no real argument of it failing. Socialist parties are winning favor worldwide, whereas right-wing parties are losing favor.
Explain your broad reaching statement then of Socialism failing if the opposition is not popular in the eyes of the people anymore except for a minority in USA who are swayed by corporate owned talk radio.

:roll: You obviously have no interest in actually READING what I stated. I did provide reasoning and it has NOTHING to do with opposing or alternative ideas/ideals. I will quote myself one more time to give you a fair shot at understanding. If you go off on this "communism" or "right wing" BS again, I'll take it as you not wanting to actually defend socialism on it's merits but would rather make the others look worse than your beloved socialism.

Socialism no matter how perfect the scenario will fail. The number 1 reason why? human nature. Socialism fails without the big stick of an authoritarian beating people back into line thus distorting it and eventually causing it to collapse.

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Spare us the references to USSR and other failed State Capitalist totalitarian failures. They have 0% relevance to this thread.

Sorry, no can do. That is the measuring stick of socialist policies.

What socialist policies did the ussr ever implement? Central planning would be about as close as you could get (which really isn't a socialist policy), otherwise it was just a military dictatorship with ideological pretensions.

Central planning is as close as I need to get, and I can't possibly get any closer because that IS socialism. Collective ownership; government controls all of the means of production and distribution of goods.. That's all there is.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Spare us the references to USSR and other failed State Capitalist totalitarian failures. They have 0% relevance to this thread.

Sorry, no can do. That is the measuring stick of socialist policies.

Then you need to read more. USSR has no relevance of Socialist policies. Most historians will tell you straight up that USSR gave up its Socialist principals from before even Lenin died or the revolution was won in Russia.

Link please. Anything to prove this.

USSR gave up it's socialist principles in 1991.

A good book to read is Animal Farm on the subject, as it is written by a well known Socialist (George Orwell) condemning the Russian Revolution and Communism.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
cad, what the hell are you rambling about? Why do you keep going back to authoritarian communism, when that is not what he is talking about?

It would be like me prognosticating on the failures of free markets due to the failure of any anarcho-capitalist 'state' to succeed.

Socialism is a major tenant of the governing philosophy of every major developed country in the world, as are free markets. When each is used in the correct place, both can and have improved society.

In summary, stop being a reactionary tool.

Hello? why is it you socialists can't read? "I" don't keep bringing it up. "I" brought it up once, AFTER I stated why socialism fails. In response to that failing, socialism brings on authoritarianism to "survive" but it too eventually crumbles due to the same reasoning that socialism fails - HUMAN NATURE. Humans don't like being controlled. They have a drive to better themselves and provide more for THEMSELVES.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: Carmen813
Cad,
I think arguing that socialism will fail because of human nature is awfully short-sighted given that our banking system just failed due to human greed. Not saying your stance is without merit, but I think that's a pretty terrible example to use, especially right now.

Our banking system didn't fail because of human greed. Our banking system failed because of the sub-prime crisis, which was brought about by government intervention.

That can be attributed to socialist thought.

you clearly know little of what caused the subprime crisis.

After the CRA and its expansion, I don't know how you can prove otherwise.

jesus christ, this has been debunked probably 500 times here, yet deliberately stupid people keep going back to it.

CRA mortgages did not cause this problem, CRA mortgages are not failing at any substantially higher rate than prime. The subprime mortgages that are failing are in the suburbs, where the CRA doesn't apply. The subprime issues are fundamentally caused by moral hazard problems related to mortgage brokers more than anything.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Spare us the references to USSR and other failed State Capitalist totalitarian failures. They have 0% relevance to this thread.

Sorry, no can do. That is the measuring stick of socialist policies.

What socialist policies did the ussr ever implement? Central planning would be about as close as you could get (which really isn't a socialist policy), otherwise it was just a military dictatorship with ideological pretensions.

Central planning is as close as I need to get, and I can't possibly get any closer because that IS socialism. Collective ownership; government controls all of the means of production and distribution of goods.. That's all there is.

that's not socialism. Many states (including the US at times) have had varying degrees of central planning, socialist ideology was not necessary.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
cad, what the hell are you rambling about? Why do you keep going back to authoritarian communism, when that is not what he is talking about?

It would be like me prognosticating on the failures of free markets due to the failure of any anarcho-capitalist 'state' to succeed.

Socialism is a major tenant of the governing philosophy of every major developed country in the world, as are free markets. When each is used in the correct place, both can and have improved society.

In summary, stop being a reactionary tool.

Hello? why is it you socialists can't read? "I" don't keep bringing it up. "I" brought it up once, AFTER I stated why socialism fails. In response to that failing, socialism brings on authoritarianism to "survive" but it too eventually crumbles due to the same reasoning that socialism fails - HUMAN NATURE. Humans don't like being controlled. They have a drive to better themselves and provide more for THEMSELVES.

So coudl you please provide timelines for the following socialist countries to fail and HUMAN NATURE take over:

sweden
norway
france
germany
united states of america
canada
united kingdom


thanks, i look forward to whatever you plan to pass off as insight.

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Spare us the references to USSR and other failed State Capitalist totalitarian failures. They have 0% relevance to this thread.

Sorry, no can do. That is the measuring stick of socialist policies.

What socialist policies did the ussr ever implement? Central planning would be about as close as you could get (which really isn't a socialist policy), otherwise it was just a military dictatorship with ideological pretensions.

Central planning is as close as I need to get, and I can't possibly get any closer because that IS socialism. Collective ownership; government controls all of the means of production and distribution of goods.. That's all there is.

that's not socialism. Many states (including the US at times) have had varying degrees of central planning, socialist ideology was not necessary.

Oh yes, that certainly is socialism.

 

[miketheidiot]

oh and by the way cad, just because i call out or inane and ignorant posting, does not make me a social in the line of steeplerot, i am not, and you are both equally niave.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Atreus21


Central planning is as close as I need to get, and I can't possibly get any closer because that IS socialism. Collective ownership; government controls all of the means of production and distribution of goods.. That's all there is.

The thing you do not get because you are stuck in your ideology it seems is that the Government IS the people.

As long as people hold the governments accountable with their resources through Democracy then there is no problem, Capitalisms biggest flaw is that it creates monopolies, that have enough power to influence government and thus subvert the will of voters in the name of their own best interest (which is exploiting workers/markets/governments to make more $).

It is all about keeping capital and government accountable to serve us, if you believe that a balance must be struck between money making and honesty to the people then you are on your way to becoming a Socialist, because in the end, you believe that a less corrupt system makes a better society/more $.

This is the essence of Marxism in my opinion and what he brought to the world in his works, it makes sense and has lasted for 150+ years now for a reason.

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: Carmen813
Cad,
I think arguing that socialism will fail because of human nature is awfully short-sighted given that our banking system just failed due to human greed. Not saying your stance is without merit, but I think that's a pretty terrible example to use, especially right now.

Our banking system didn't fail because of human greed. Our banking system failed because of the sub-prime crisis, which was brought about by government intervention.

That can be attributed to socialist thought.

you clearly know little of what caused the subprime crisis.

After the CRA and its expansion, I don't know how you can prove otherwise.

jesus christ, this has been debunked probably 500 times here, yet deliberately stupid people keep going back to it.

CRA mortgages did not cause this problem, CRA mortgages are not failing at any substantially higher rate than prime. The subprime mortgages that are failing are in the suburbs, where the CRA doesn't apply. The subprime issues are fundamentally caused by moral hazard problems related to mortgage brokers more than anything.

Dude, the CRA created the subprime designation.

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: Atreus21


Central planning is as close as I need to get, and I can't possibly get any closer because that IS socialism. Collective ownership; government controls all of the means of production and distribution of goods.. That's all there is.

The thing you do not get because you are stuck in your ideology it seems is that the Government IS the people.

As long as people hold the governments accountable with their resources through Democracy then there is no problem, Capitalisms biggest flaw is that it creates monopolies, that have enough power to influence government and thus subvert the will of voters in the name of their own best interest (which is exploiting workers/markets/governments to make more $).

It is all about keeping capital and government accountable to serve us, if you believe that a balance must be struck between money making and honesty to the people then you are on your way to becoming a Socialist, because in the end, you believe that a less corrupt system makes a better society/more $.

This is the essence of Marxism in my opinion and what he brought to the world in his works, it makes sense and has lasted for 150+ years now for a reason.

Take a single economics class. Any of them.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Atreus21


Dude, the CRA created the subprime designation.

Keep telling yourself this revisionist history and watch the world pass you by even further.

No matter who you try to blame it on or how you try to frame it pure greed unregulated was the problem.

It always happens again and again and some people cannot accept why for idealistic reasons.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Take a single economics class. Any of them.

Yeah, because the "best" Economists have sure given us good advice while the country fails.