Question Rethinking AMD consumer CPU lineup in the situation of chiplet scarcity

[Kocicak]

If we look at the higher end of the consumer CPU lineup by AMD (beginning with Ryzen 3600), and the fact that AMD is unable to deliver a highly clocked 6+6 core CPU and effectively offers no high core count CPU at this point, and the fact that the high quality chiplets are better used in server CPUs, I believe it is time to radically rethink the lineup of consumer CPUs.

I believe the higher end of the consumer CPU lineup can comprise of just 4-5 processors.

1) 6C 3.9/4.2 65W - the same as current 3600 - price 200 USD
2) 6+6C 3.6/4.2 95W - made from two chiplets which are used in 6C - price 300 USD

These two CPUs can cover 75-90% of the market demand, they are made from low quality chiplets which can have up to two nonfunctional cores. These chiplets are unusable in server processors anyway. They are essentially a waste product of server CPU production.

The market demand can be nearly all covered by chiplets that are not needed for server CPU production !!!

3) 8C 4.0/4.7 95W - very high quality chiplet which could be used in server CPU - price 400-450 USD
4) 8+8C 3.8/4.7 135W - made from two chiplets which are used in 8C - price 750-800 USD

5) 8+8C-super ?/? ?W - made from "miraculous chiplets", intended for those who want something extraordinary and special - price 1000 - 1200 USD. Existence of this product depends on the existence and quantity of those "miraculous chiplets".

What do you think?

 

[DrMrLordX]

Looks like the 3900 is better than expected.

I'm wondering how they got that much performance out of it at 4.0 GHz, when my 3900x @ 4.375 GHz scores only slightly higher. And that RAM speed is weird too. DDR4-4533 CL15?

 

[Topweasel]

I understand that the introduction of 3600x2 would decrease sales of the CPUs you mentioned a bit.

I already suggested on the top of this page, that 3600x2 could be locked in its TDP limit.

You have inefficient CPU locked at 105W for $269. You can do A LOT MORE computing with an efficient CPU oveclocked to 180W for example. As I said earlier 3600x2 and 3900 (3900x) could live happily next to each other.

You know AMD hasn't locked any Ryzen.

But again think of the logic behind this a CPU that is 90% of a 3900x priced below a 3900, priced within range of a 3600x/3700x/and significantly cheaper than the 3800x all with much less compute power. This has to be by far the silliest idea I have read. You basically gut your whole Ryzen market for to sell one sku to meet your desires. My recommendation is to get a 3900x after Zen 3 hits next year on discount, then you can lock the TDP yourself.

 

[Kocicak]

Locking a CPU made of two low quality chiplets could be seen as a safety precaution (not to kill motherboards, cause fires etc.).

What I am writing in this thread is always connected with the production situation, it is written in the title of it.

One of the most important presumptions here is that you can serve a huge part of the consumer market (or at least of its upper segment) by seling them not so good 6C chiplets, which are no good for use in servers.

When I look at the table I posted earlier, it still makes perfect sense to me.

And the production situation aside:

3600 is like bicycle with one cycle. Like a one boobed woman. Like a propeller with one blade. You simply have to fill the empty space there to finish it. To balance it. And you do not need high quality chips for that and price it high, you just need the second one of what is already in there.

The world simply NEEDS 3600x2. It is destined to happen. AMD should not hesitate a minute more.

This was a vigorous pationate declamation, borderline shouting.


*Removed large fonts*

This post, particularly with that last line, came very close to trolling the mods. Consider this your last warning.

AT Moderator ElFenix

 

[Topweasel]

I makes no sense at all. If you want a 2x3600 product it will be between $450 and $475. Done end of story. It doesn't fit anywhere else, not a single place, not anywhere in this universe, not even with a million caveats, it doesn't have a place outside that.

Also, well your F'd anyways. The existence of a 3900 basically kills a 3600x2. The 3900 is the number they would use and the 65w would use a low power suffix. But since it doesn't that means its directly below the 3900x with nothing in between.

 

[DrMrLordX]

The world simply NEEDS 3600x2. It is destined to happen. AMD should not hesitate a minute more.

You may want it, but the rest of the world has other ideas. Either knock Dr. Su off her post so you can control the company or be content with what we've got.

 

[Hitman928]

Setting the world records suggests that the silicon used in 3900 is good, or possibly even better than the one used in 3900X.

It set a record under LN2. The rules change for silicon quality at cryo temperatures.

I agree with everyone else, you're insistence upon this one 12C sku at such a low price point makes no sense from AMD's perspective. Would it be very attractive to consumers? Yes, of course, but AMD would be crazy to actually put it out there for multiple reason. One of which I haven't seen mentioned is that the core binning you keep mentioning I don't think exists, meaning the difference between really good and really bad cores isn't that large when put in proper scaling. Under your plan AMD would essentially be taking cores they could sell as 3900s at $400+ and selling them for $250, or at the very least they'd be selling 12 cores of the same quality for barely more money than they sell us 6 cores for. Why in the world would they do that?

Also, your constant use of large and bold font is unnecessary and annoying, especially on mobile, please stop.

 

[ElFenix]

Not shouting, just emphasizing! You know, like in real life? People can do that with their voices.

One of either italics or bold, used sparingly, is sufficient. When you start using larger fonts along with bold and caps, you're shouting. Quit doing that, it's disruptive.

AT Moderator ElFenix

 

[fleshconsumed]

Looks like the 3900 is better than expected.

This is almost too good to be true. I'm being honest I have trouble believing that 3900 would boost to 4GHz on all cores in cinebench, there is practically no difference with 3900X.

However, if true, then I would definitely think about getting one. I don't care about single core boost, but having 12 cores at around 4GHz doing x265/HEVC encodes would speed my work by a lot.

 

[Topweasel]

This is almost too good to be true. I'm being honest I have trouble believing that 3900 would boost to 4GHz on all cores in cinebench, there is practically no difference with 3900X.

However, if true, then I would definitely think about getting one. I don't care about single core boost, but having 12 cores at around 4GHz doing x265/HEVC encodes would speed my work by a lot.

That's PBO and autoOC at work. If it turn that on, on my 3900x I get 4.1 and could probably push 4.2 with better cooling.

That said the chips are picked for the clocks they can get at 65w. No one said anything about about oc clocks. But that is also why I wouldn't expect super savings. Probably $50 tops.

 

[maddie]

Locking a CPU made of two low quality chiplets could be seen as a safety precaution (not to kill motherboards, cause fires etc.).

What I am writing in this thread is always connected with the production situation, it is written in the title of it.

One of the most important presumptions here is that you can serve a huge part of the consumer market (or at least of its upper segment) by seling them not so good 6C chiplets, which are no good for use in servers.

When I look at the table I posted earlier, it still makes perfect sense to me.

And the production situation aside:

3600 is like bicycle with one cycle. Like a one boobed woman. Like a propeller with one blade. You simply have to fill the empty space there to finish it. To balance it. And you do not need high quality chips for that and price it high, you just need the second one of what is already in there.

The world simply NEEDS 3600x2. It is destined to happen. AMD should not hesitate a minute more.

This was a vigorous pationate declamation, borderline shouting.


*Removed large fonts*

This post, particularly with that last line, came very close to trolling the mods. Consider this your last warning.

AT Moderator ElFenix

Just as a small info point.

One bladed props are most efficient. As far as the one boob, I'll have to admit I have no experience with that. Unicycle, yes.

 

[DrMrLordX]

This is almost too good to be true. I'm being honest I have trouble believing that 3900 would boost to 4GHz on all cores in cinebench, there is practically no difference with 3900X.

Actually looks like a static OC to 4 GHz, at an unnecessarily high voltage. The score is still way higher than what I would expect though. Memspeed also looks weird.

 

[Thunder 57]

Setting the world records suggests that the silicon used in 3900 is good, or possibly even better than the one used in 3900X.

Now we have two (not counting the PRO version) 12 core CPUs made from good chiplets, one expensive and the second one little bit less expensive. It is high time to make a third CHEAP one made from worse chiplets.

3600x2 = 12 cores for masses!

And the upcoming 12 core Intel processor from the HEDT platform would have OVER TWO TIMES lower performance/price ratio than this 3600x2 from the mainstream platform. OUCH.

Not gonna happen. Why would AMD sell themselves short?

I understand that the introduction of 3600x2 would decrease sales of the CPUs you mentioned a bit.

I already suggested on the top of this page, that 3600x2 could be locked in its TDP limit.

You have inefficient CPU locked at 105W for $269. You can do A LOT MORE computing with an efficient CPU oveclocked to 180W for example. As I said earlier 3600x2 and 3900 (3900x) could live happily next to each other.

AMD hasn't released a locked consumer CPU since K10. OK, I guess a couple of exceptions with the new Athlons on the super low end, which are only pseudo-locked apparently. Also, not going to happen because as Topweasel already explained:

Also, well your F'd anyways. The existence of a 3900 basically kills a 3600x2. The 3900 is the number they would use and the 65w would use a low power suffix. But since it doesn't that means its directly below the 3900x with nothing in between.

Locking a CPU made of two low quality chiplets could be seen as a safety precaution (not to kill motherboards, cause fires etc.).

What I am writing in this thread is always connected with the production situation, it is written in the title of it.

One of the most important presumptions here is that you can serve a huge part of the consumer market (or at least of its upper segment) by seling them not so good 6C chiplets, which are no good for use in servers.

When I look at the table I posted earlier, it still makes perfect sense to me.

And the production situation aside:

3600 is like bicycle with one cycle. Like a one boobed woman. Like a propeller with one blade. You simply have to fill the empty space there to finish it. To balance it. And you do not need high quality chips for that and price it high, you just need the second one of what is already in there.

The world simply NEEDS 3600x2. It is destined to happen. AMD should not hesitate a minute more.

This was a vigorous pationate declamation, borderline shouting.


*Removed large fonts*

This post, particularly with that last line, came very close to trolling the mods. Consider this your last warning.

AT Moderator ElFenix

There is a huge market for hex cores, so the 2600 is very much complete. Pretty sure earlier in this thread you said the ratio of sales between 3600 and 3900X was 100:1. Nonsense ratio (probably) aside, people love them! A lot more than a one boobed woman anyway.

Let me ask you this, why should your selfish desires hurt AMD? Why haven't you called out Intel for selling 9900k's that are cut down into 9700k's? Why is AMD the one that should be a charity according to you? Why should AMD make less money and lose talented people and therefore inevitably providing crappy CPU's? You do want AMD to be competitive, right?

Just as a small info point.

One bladed props are most efficient. As far as the one boob, I'll have to admit I have no experience with that. Unicycle, yes.

Why is that, less resistance? So more efficient but not practical?

 

[DarthKyrie]

I doubt that they are "unable to supply" their server customers. Face facts, Server market gets "first dibs" on 8C chiplets. There just aren't that many left over for their consumer lineup.

Pretty much all of the consumer CPUs that have come out so far have been the garbage dies from the supercomputer orders that AMD is fulfilling, we probably won't see good quality silicon in the consumer space until the supercomputer orders are done but the Zen3 CPUs will probably be out by then.

 

[Kocicak]

CPUs that have come out so far have been the garbage dies
we probably won't see good quality silicon in the consumer space until the supercomputer orders are done

I do not believe that the chiplet found in 3800X (or even in 3700X) is low quality, the real low quality 8C chiplets have probably two worst cores disabled and used in 6 core processors.

AMD also mentioned, that they will need "special binning" to produce 3950X.

Could be usefull to remind my speculation, that in production of the 12 core processors (the current and coming models are pretty highly specified) they could be using fully functional high or at least good quality 8C chiplets.

This is where 3600x2 (requiring just lower quality stuff used in 3600) comes and saves AMD a ton of troubles freeing up a lot of HQ chiplets. It is the best thing ever for AMD to produce!

 

[Topweasel]

This is where 3600x2 (requiring just lower quality stuff used in 3600) comes and saves AMD a ton of troubles freeing up a lot of HQ chiplets. It is the best thing ever for AMD to produce!

Enjoy your $470 CPU.

 

[.vodka]

AMD Brings Ryzen 9 3900 and Ryzen 5 3500X To Life

www.anandtech.com

Having OEM-only processors isn’t new for AMD. In the last generation AMD launched the Ryzen 5 2500X and the Ryzen 3 2300X into the pre-built and system integrator market, with no retail packaging or focus. Personally I’d love to see these for sale somewhere at retail as chip-only, even if it was through AMD itself.


As these new CPUs are OEM parts, as with previous OEM hardware, AMD doesn’t give official pricing on them. The Ryzen 5 3500X is China-only at this point, but we would expect it to be cheaper than the 3600. Similarly with the Ryzen 9 3900, one would expect it to sit between the 3900X and 3800X in pricing. Given reports about the lack of Ryzen 9 3900X on shelves at this point, or inflated pricing where available, it would be interesting to hear how many of these parts are actually available to OEMs and system integrator partners.

So the 3900 is OEM only, as is the 3500X.

That's a shame.

 

[VirtualLarry]

The Ryzen 5 3500X is China-only at this point,

IMHO, that's a BIG mistake, not countering Intel's i5-9400F for price/performance and especially price. Especially when it's a few FPS ahead in a few specific popular e-sports games, compared to the R5 3600.

Edit:

If AMD has to allocate their products, it makes sense to sell high end SKUs in US market and lower end SKUs in China and other markets.

That's true, too.

 

[bsp2020]

IMHO, that's a BIG mistake, not countering Intel's i5-9400F for price/performance and especially price. Especially when it's a few FPS ahead in a few specific popular e-sports games, compared to the R5 3600.

I'm sure those SKUs will eventually come to US retail. However, if AMD is really selling everything it's making, it makes sense to introduce the products to regions where they will compete better. Currently in US, high end (>$200) Ryzen processors are selling well. I'm sure China customers are more inclined to buy lower end products that are more affordable. If AMD has to allocate their products, it makes sense to sell high end SKUs in US market and lower end SKUs in China and other markets.

AMD has been introducing new SKUs steadily over the past couple of months. I think it is clear that AMD is not having manufacturing issues as some websites suggested. They are just selling everything they are making and I'm sure they will beat their Q3/Q4 guidance. I won't be surprised if the main cause of TSMC tight supply situation was caused by AMD ordering more Zen2 wafers than initially planned.

 

[Topweasel]

The 3900 especially along with it being announced within weeks of the 3900 pro, screams OEM request anyways. It just doesn't make sense for AMD to offer a retail 3900 if the 3900x is selling every one they offer and without a good way to measure whether 3900 sales are bonus margin over 3800x or cannibalization of 3900x sales whether it be for availability, overclocking ability, or just because they would have gotten a 3900x if a 3900 wasn't available. You only bring the 3900 to the retail market if 3900x's start sitting on the shelf for more than a day.

 

[Kocicak]

Enjoy your $470 CPU.

No! 3900 and 3600x2 are two different products. I already explained that.

3600x2 is a cheap 12 core for masses made from low quality silicon and I cannot wait any longer to get it. WHERE IS IT?! Amd should at least announce it and say when is it coming.

You guys should stop being stupid telling me it will not come. Consumers have a great power nowadays. Consumers can actually put a lot of pressure on a manufacturer. Consumers can get what they want if they unite and try hard enough.

DO YOU PERSONALLY, as a consumer, want or at least welcome existence of cheap 3600x2? Yes or no.

If yes, why dont you simply stop acting like a AMD shareholder? AMD can handle producing and selling cheap 3600x2, do not worry about them.

 

[DarthKyrie]

I do not believe that the chiplet found in 3800X (or even in 3700X) is low quality, the real low quality 8C chiplets have probably two worst cores disabled and used in 6 core processors.

AMD also mentioned, that they will need "special binning" to produce 3950X.

Could be usefull to remind my speculation, that in production of the 12 core processors (the current and coming models are pretty highly specified) they could be using fully functional high or at least good quality 8C chiplets.

This is where 3600x2 (requiring just lower quality stuff used in 3600) comes and saves AMD a ton of troubles freeing up a lot of HQ chiplets. It is the best thing ever for AMD to produce!

Epyc CPUs will always get the very best silicon, good luck running the speeds that Epyc CPUs run at along with the voltage that they run at on a consumer CPU. The point of the 3800X is to be able to sell 8C/16T chiplets that require more power and voltage than the 3700X uses.

The "Special binning" that AMD is referring to is needing to find the highest clocking 8C/16T chiplets from every wafer that they are producing in order to find all chiplets that can reach 4.6 GHz boost clock. My guess is that those chiplets are very rare maybe something like 2 or 3 in a wafer at this time, which is why there is a delay in the release, AMD was counting on better yields.

This mythical 3600x2 you want so badly is currently being sold by AMD to OEMs in the form of the 3900, so they have that covered. If you want 1 so bad maybe you should contact an OEM and see if they will sell you 1.

 

[Topweasel]

Epyc CPUs will always get the very best silicon, good luck running the speeds that Epyc CPUs run at along with the voltage that they run at on a consumer CPU. The point of the 3800X is to be able to sell 8C/16T chiplets that require more power and voltage than the 3700X uses.

The "Special binning" that AMD is referring to is needing to find the highest clocking 8C/16T chiplets from every wafer that they are producing in order to find all chiplets that can reach 4.6 GHz boost clock. My guess is that those chiplets are very rare maybe something like 2 or 3 in a wafer at this time, which is why there is a delay in the release, AMD was counting on better yields.

This mythical 3600x2 you want so badly is currently being sold by AMD to OEMs in the form of the 3900, so they have that covered. If you want 1 so bad maybe you should contact an OEM and see if they will sell you 1.

He wants a 90w 3900 and sold for as little as AMD can sell it for ($300). Pipedream. Its insane the mental hopes he is going through to sell himself that it needs to happen and that AMD so obviously sees that it needs to happen.

Typically high clocking silicon isn't the best Silicon for EPYC. I think we are just seeing the side effect of AMD's strategy. The 3600 and 3600x are also two of AMD's best sellers and they are prepping for a TR3 release where at least intially the 24c chip will be the top prospect. On top of all of the EPYC's using 6c dies. Now add on the OEM only 3900's and 3900 Pros. All from the 30% or so dies from each wafer (which some of those not good enough for 6c dies). With a heavy reluctance to bin 8c dies for these since demand for the 8c die epycs seems decently high (high enough to keep the 3800x at a premium price and hold off on 8c based TR3's and the 3950x).

 

[DrMrLordX]

DO YOU PERSONALLY, as a consumer, want or at least welcome existence of cheap 3600x2? Yes or no.

No. I bought a 3900x, and I don't need another Zen2 machine.

AMD can handle producing and selling cheap 3600x2, do not worry about them.

It's nice that you are so confident. Looking back at AMD from 2011-2016 (if not earlier) and watching them botch so many launches and . . . really nearly everything else, it's amazing that two years have given forum posters so much confidence in AMD's resilience. It wasn't so long ago that various users with cat-faced avatars were predicting AMD's demise.

 

[Asterox]

AMD Brings Ryzen 9 3900 and Ryzen 5 3500X To Life

www.anandtech.com

So the 3900 is OEM only, as is the 3500X.

That's a shame.

On the contrary, it's fun or let's pretend that non X Ryzen 5 3500 doesn't exist. Hm but you can buy that CPU in classic Webshop retail in India.

AMD Ryzen 5 3500 | 6 Cores 4.1 GHz | Desktop Processor

AMD Ryzen 5 3500 | 6 Cores 6 Threads 4.1 GHz | Desktop Processor - Zen 2 Architecture - DDR4 3200 - 7nm FinFet Process Node - Entry Level gaming CPU

mdcomputers.in

 

[bsp2020]

He wants a 90w 3900 and sold for as little as AMD can sell it for ($300). Pipedream. Its insane the mental hopes he is going through to sell himself that it needs to happen and that AMD so obviously sees that it needs to happen.

I'm sure, by this time next year, he will be able to buy 3900 for $300.

Don't tell yourself it can't be done. Ask yourself how can it be done.