Request: Home Theater setup recommendations

[Howard]

Originally posted by: Ornery
Don't babble anymore without doing some real world testing. I've got an audio meter here, and it's reading a fraction of 1 watt most of the time. If the OP is in an apartment, he won't be using much more than that either.

What's the sound pressure level at that power?

 

[Ornery]

My db meter is broken, but that's at a level that's comfortable. You could talk to somebody and they could understand you.

 

[MikeMike]

Originally posted by: Howard

Originally posted by: Falloutboy

Originally posted by: Howard

Originally posted by: spidey07
umm, 5 watts? Over 100 db?

Think again. In my theater 200+ watts per channel is hardly enough.

It is my opinion that unless you have VERY efficient speakers like horns you need at least 100+ watts per channel to have undistorted reference volume at the listening position.

Assume a 90db/1W@1m sensitivity. With 5 W, you get about 97dB at 1 meter. Assuming a listening position of 3 meters, you get 79dB.

That's a pathetic sound level. Of course, that might go up to to 81 or 82dB or so, given that two speakers slightly up the sound pressure, and the room adds a bit.

your math is flawed. two speakers outputing at 97db would be 100db at 1 meter. and the fall off is 3 db for every meter so you would be at 90db at 3 meters without even calculating in room gain which depending on the size of the room could be alot or a little. also add into this a 5.1 setup in that thier would be more than 2 speakers at anyone time outputing sound and as long as you aren't trying to fill a large room you got quite a bit of sound at "only" 5 watts.

No, two speakers playing the same sound DO NOT increase SPL by 3dB.

Sound falls by 6dB per meter. Do the math. (Find the ratio between the surface area of two spheres, given a radius of r, and r + 1 meters).

EDIT: I rescind that statement until I can figure out how I calculated it before.

doubling the surface area of output will increase spl by 3db given a perfect world.

then add to that that you are doubling the total wattage put out, you get another 3 db in a perfect world.

MIKE

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: Ornery
My db meter is broken, but that's at a level that's comfortable. You could talk to somebody and they could understand you.

That definitely isn't THX reference level.

 

[apac]

Originally posted by: Falloutboy

Originally posted by: apac

Originally posted by: Falloutboy

every company exagerates on watts in the lowend of the product line, I mean think about it you know nothing about home theater and you are faced with an advertised 100watt per channel KLH amp for 100 bucks sitting next to it is a $500 denon labled at 40watts per channel. the consumer will buy the KLH almost everytime. but in reality the KLH's audio isn't as clean at 5 watts as it is at full blast on the denon. this is why all companies exspecially on the consumer end exagerate watts, because the public thinks if its not over a 100watts its crap. I mean I would think computer geeks exscially would be able to under stand this because of the whole MHZ myth thing intel has tried to pull for years

Yet low end products from companies like Denon still sell great because anyone worth their salt cares nothing for exaggerated wattage. Everything I say applies to someone who has researched technical HT stuff, not some idiot from McDonalds. The only reason to list such a statistic is shady propaganda and marketing technique that helps salesmen screw a customer into buying the product. Based on that fact alone I'll stick with Denon.

and denon is a fine product but what I'm trying to get across is that brand isn't everything and as long as you are willing to research products thier are better buys out thier, for those who research whats out thier, I myself didn't think anything of the panny amps when they came out I figured they were just a piece of crap little amp to make wives happy because they weren't huge but I ended up researching them then hearing them and I relized they were very good at what they do, and for $200-300 bucks they are a freaken steal for the money.

granted if I'm a somewhat informed customer but don't have time to research what I want denon, onkyo, or HK would be a perfectly logical choice, because everything they put out is quality but if you really beleave that the watt numbers even these companies advertise is the truth then you really need to wake up.

There's a reason the lowest price on a Denon at my local HT store (which I'm not bias towards at all, I just checked the web page) is $399, and is only 75W/ch. I guarantee that if you head over to Sears or any other non-HT store they will advertise a panasonic or a sony over any of their higher models because they know any uninformed consumer can be easily convinced.

It's like showing 2 cars: a civic dx with a full body kit and metal spoiler for 15k, and an audi for 40k. Anyone that knows sh!t about cars can easily say the audi is much higher quality, but what about the 14 year old kid that sees all that bling on the civic and thinks its badass? This isn't directed towards the XR series specifically, just companies like panny that market the low end components with propaganda.

OK I'm done. Peace.

 

[Ornery]

He's in an apartment!

 

[Falloutboy]

Originally posted by: Howard

Originally posted by: Falloutboy

Originally posted by: Howard

Originally posted by: spidey07
umm, 5 watts? Over 100 db?

Think again. In my theater 200+ watts per channel is hardly enough.

It is my opinion that unless you have VERY efficient speakers like horns you need at least 100+ watts per channel to have undistorted reference volume at the listening position.

Assume a 90db/1W@1m sensitivity. With 5 W, you get about 97dB at 1 meter. Assuming a listening position of 3 meters, you get 79dB.

That's a pathetic sound level. Of course, that might go up to to 81 or 82dB or so, given that two speakers slightly up the sound pressure, and the room adds a bit.

your math is flawed. two speakers outputing at 97db would be 100db at 1 meter. and the fall off is 3 db for every meter so you would be at 90db at 3 meters without even calculating in room gain which depending on the size of the room could be alot or a little. also add into this a 5.1 setup in that thier would be more than 2 speakers at anyone time outputing sound and as long as you aren't trying to fill a large room you got quite a bit of sound at "only" 5 watts.

No, two speakers playing the same sound DO NOT increase SPL by 3dB.

Sound falls by 6dB per meter. Do the math. (Find the ratio between the surface area of two spheres, given a radius of r, and r + 1 meters).

EDIT: I rescind that statement until I can figure out how I calculated it before.

ok true I always thought it was 3db per meter but still that would only be true if the speaker was outputing into an area with no floor, walls, or ceiling all of which reflect the sound back into the room. (this is what room gain is)

also when you add a second speaker you are gaining 3db because your doubling the energy any when you calculate in what mike said which I forgot all about that your also doubling the surface area of the speakers that you gain another 3db and that when all 6 speakers are going at even 96db during a loud part of the movie that is very loud for an apartment type system or even for most people.

 

[apac]

Originally posted by: Ornery
He's in an apartment!

The OP is AWOL so audiophiles hijacked the thread .

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: Falloutboy

Originally posted by: Howard

Originally posted by: Falloutboy

Originally posted by: Howard

Originally posted by: spidey07
umm, 5 watts? Over 100 db?

Think again. In my theater 200+ watts per channel is hardly enough.

It is my opinion that unless you have VERY efficient speakers like horns you need at least 100+ watts per channel to have undistorted reference volume at the listening position.

Assume a 90db/1W@1m sensitivity. With 5 W, you get about 97dB at 1 meter. Assuming a listening position of 3 meters, you get 79dB.

That's a pathetic sound level. Of course, that might go up to to 81 or 82dB or so, given that two speakers slightly up the sound pressure, and the room adds a bit.

your math is flawed. two speakers outputing at 97db would be 100db at 1 meter. and the fall off is 3 db for every meter so you would be at 90db at 3 meters without even calculating in room gain which depending on the size of the room could be alot or a little. also add into this a 5.1 setup in that thier would be more than 2 speakers at anyone time outputing sound and as long as you aren't trying to fill a large room you got quite a bit of sound at "only" 5 watts.

No, two speakers playing the same sound DO NOT increase SPL by 3dB.

Sound falls by 6dB per meter. Do the math. (Find the ratio between the surface area of two spheres, given a radius of r, and r + 1 meters).

EDIT: I rescind that statement until I can figure out how I calculated it before.

ok true I always thought it was 3db per meter but still that would only be true if the speaker was outputing into an area with no floor, walls, or ceiling all of which reflect the sound back into the room. (this is what room gain is)

also when you add a second speaker you are gaining 3db because your doubling the energy any when you calculate that when all 6 speakers are going at even 96db during a loud part of the movie that is very for an apartment type system which is what the OP wanted

No, that's not what room gain is. I know what you're talking about, but there's a different term, which also eludes me.

Getting an extra 3dB requires double the power or double the radiating area, AND it requires that the additional sound waves are IN PHASE (this situation is quite rare, with regard to the two speakers - plus, they are often playing different sounds). Otherwise, you don't get 3dB.

I didn't read the part where it was an apartment system. Then a distance of 1.5m to 2m should be suitable.

 

[bozack]

Bang for buck I would say either Panny, refurb HK or Marantz....great place for this info is

avs forum

for speakers it really depends on what you are looking for...if you don't care about having large speakers then go with the Onkyo HTIB that is sold virtually everywhere....if you are like me and love little cube speakers than have a look at Canton movie series, I myself am looking at the movie 6 CX system...the Athena Micra setup also gets great reviews....polk, bose and Klipsch sold a BB generally are not favorable even though I don't mind Bose personally due to their ultra small size but the Cantons are just as small (however next to impossible to find in the states)


good luck

 

[Falloutboy]

Originally posted by: Howard

Originally posted by: Falloutboy

Originally posted by: Howard

Originally posted by: Falloutboy

Originally posted by: Howard

Originally posted by: spidey07
umm, 5 watts? Over 100 db?

Think again. In my theater 200+ watts per channel is hardly enough.

It is my opinion that unless you have VERY efficient speakers like horns you need at least 100+ watts per channel to have undistorted reference volume at the listening position.

Assume a 90db/1W@1m sensitivity. With 5 W, you get about 97dB at 1 meter. Assuming a listening position of 3 meters, you get 79dB.

That's a pathetic sound level. Of course, that might go up to to 81 or 82dB or so, given that two speakers slightly up the sound pressure, and the room adds a bit.

your math is flawed. two speakers outputing at 97db would be 100db at 1 meter. and the fall off is 3 db for every meter so you would be at 90db at 3 meters without even calculating in room gain which depending on the size of the room could be alot or a little. also add into this a 5.1 setup in that thier would be more than 2 speakers at anyone time outputing sound and as long as you aren't trying to fill a large room you got quite a bit of sound at "only" 5 watts.

No, two speakers playing the same sound DO NOT increase SPL by 3dB.

Sound falls by 6dB per meter. Do the math. (Find the ratio between the surface area of two spheres, given a radius of r, and r + 1 meters).

EDIT: I rescind that statement until I can figure out how I calculated it before.

ok true I always thought it was 3db per meter but still that would only be true if the speaker was outputing into an area with no floor, walls, or ceiling all of which reflect the sound back into the room. (this is what room gain is)

also when you add a second speaker you are gaining 3db because your doubling the energy any when you calculate that when all 6 speakers are going at even 96db during a loud part of the movie that is very for an apartment type system which is what the OP wanted

No, that's not what room gain is. I know what you're talking about, but there's a different term, which also eludes me.

Getting an extra 3dB requires double the power or double the radiating area, AND it requires that the additional sound waves are IN PHASE. Otherwise, you don't get 3dB.

I didn't read the part where it was an apartment system. Then a distance of 1.5m to 2m should be suitable.

yes I know room gain is more about the reflected audio waves reinforcing them selfs ontop of each other. which mainly happens in lower frequencies which is why cars in SPL compitions can reach such insane SPL numbers. but I was using the turn more to state that your not losing the audio in to nowhere most of the sound energy gets reflected back into the room.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: rpc64
I'm looking to possibly buy a new home theater setup within the next couple months. I don't really know a whole lot about home theater stuff as far as brands and models and what works well together and how much it all costs. But I do know what I am looking for so maybe someone can recommend me some components.

What I want:

-I want a 5.1 setup
-I will probably be buying a receiver and speakers as opposed to the HT in a box because I use my xbox as a media center.
-I need good bang for the buck stuff. I don't need anything that is really loud or has a lot of power because I'm going to be in an apartment. So power/volume are not things that I need but what I want is sound QUALITY.
-I want to spend as little as possible.

I would appreciate any help you guys can give me.

So, basically you want a POS HTIAB setup? One that is cheap and underpowered? Just go to Walmart and pick up their $199 HTIAB special. Based on your requirements you won't be disappointed.

 

[Falloutboy]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: rpc64
I'm looking to possibly buy a new home theater setup within the next couple months. I don't really know a whole lot about home theater stuff as far as brands and models and what works well together and how much it all costs. But I do know what I am looking for so maybe someone can recommend me some components.

What I want:

-I want a 5.1 setup
-I will probably be buying a receiver and speakers as opposed to the HT in a box because I use my xbox as a media center.
-I need good bang for the buck stuff. I don't need anything that is really loud or has a lot of power because I'm going to be in an apartment. So power/volume are not things that I need but what I want is sound QUALITY.
-I want to spend as little as possible.

I would appreciate any help you guys can give me.

So, basically you want a POS HTIAB setup? One that is cheap and underpowered? Just go to Walmart and pick up their $199 HTIAB special. Based on your requirements you won't be disappointed.

another under educated HT newb

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: Falloutboy
So, basically you want a POS HTIAB setup? One that is cheap and underpowered? Just go to Walmart and pick up their $199 HTIAB special. Based on your requirements you won't be disappointed.

another under educated HT newb[/quote]

You are talking about the OP I presume?

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: TechnoKid

Originally posted by: Falloutboy
i'm talking clean true RMS not like most receavers saying thier receaver has 100watts of continues watts per channel. a way to find out about how loud your speakers will be is look at the sensitivity of the speakers. mine are 90db so that means at 1 watt thier that loud. now for every 3db you need double the watts. so at 93db I'd need 2 watts. and at 106db about 32watts., which i've had my system up to once or twice with a db meter and let me since the OP is in a apartment he won't need anymore volume than this. I normally listen around 95db which requires around 5 watts of power

Hmm...I bet that wattage goes up when there is some bass involved. If what you are saying is true, then people who do SPL competitions are going WAAAAY overboard with something like 1000watts into a single 12" sub, right? Different frequncies draw differnt amounts of power.

It's all in how their watts are rated.
For a comparison of wattage ratings, and how much power ratings are lied about, look at Cary Audio. They make high-end tube amps, some are single channel, 5000 dollar items that put out 15 watts per channel.

But you can rest assured that they will compete with, and probably spank any HT receiver that claims 75-100 wpc. Not to mention they will sound better, too.

 

[Kishan]

did the OP ever respond? budget? Seriously, what ca 500 bucks get you in HT?

 

[EvilYoda]

Which is why I try not to respond in these threads anymore...for some reason, everybody here thinks they know about HT and cars, just because they read it once or they googled it. It pisses me off to no end, so if someone's going to ask OT for audio/video/auto advise, he's just asking for it IMHO.

 

[Kishan]

Originally posted by: EvilYoda
Which is why I try not to respond in these threads anymore...for some reason, everybody here thinks they know about HT and cars, just because they read it once or they googled it. It pisses me off to no end, so if someone's going to ask OT for audio/video/auto advise, he's just asking for it IMHO.

where should it belong then? I mean on AT, not avs or such.

 

[Falloutboy]

Originally posted by: KPSHAH316

Originally posted by: EvilYoda
Which is why I try not to respond in these threads anymore...for some reason, everybody here thinks they know about HT and cars, just because they read it once or they googled it. It pisses me off to no end, so if someone's going to ask OT for audio/video/auto advise, he's just asking for it IMHO.

where should it belong then? I mean on AT, not avs or such.

you shouldgo to avsforum instead of here. they know thier shitt.

 

[TechnoKid]

Was looking through avs forum and found this: Mfg rating versus tested ratings on recievers. It hasn't been updated in a while it looks like.

Also found this reply: "...the big key is to have enough headroom for the very fast transient peaks which can suddenly exceed your average listening levels by 10 to 15 times...

so if you are listening at 10 watts of average power.... a peak can suddenly demand 150 watts from your amp......

some inefficient speakers or very large rooms have the average power levels running about 20 to 25 watts..... you can see by doing the math why they might require more power...... (25 X 15 = 375 watts!!)...

if you don't have enough power for the peaks the signal will clip... causing distortion and possible speaker damage...." in this thread: Text.

In anycase, this thread has veered from teh OP's initial question imo, however, he should give some prices we can work with to suggest some things.

 

[rpc64]

Holy geez you guys are rabid and impatient! Sorry I haven't replied sooner, I've been really busy lately and can't get to my computer too often. Thanks for all the replies and yes, I admit with no shame that I am an under educated HT noob. And yes I was thinking of budget being closer to $500, which I guess means that I will be looking at a crappy HTIB.

Edit: the reason my budget is so low is because I also want to buy a new TV

 

[Thraxen]

And yes I was thinking of budget being closer to $500, which I guess means that I will be looking at a crappy HTIB.

Don't listen to the fvcking audio snobs. Pricks all of them. You have to start somewhere and the simple fact is that just about any HTiB is still going to blow away your TV speakers. If you enjoy your experience then you can upgrade components at a later date when you have more disposable income.

 

[CraigRT]

Originally posted by: Sepen
I have had Denon and Yamaha receivers can't go wrong with either. I always have had Paradigms. Many different flavors..at many price ranges.

Yep, and as mentioned below, HK and Onkyo are OK too.. I personally will probably be buying a Rotel my next time around, but for now I am plenty happy with my Yamaha RX-V740 and my Mission speaker setup :thumbsup:

 

[rpc64]

But can you get a HTIB without a dvd player? Because I don't need another dvd player.

 

[Kishan]

Originally posted by: Thraxen

And yes I was thinking of budget being closer to $500, which I guess means that I will be looking at a crappy HTIB.

Don't listen to the fvcking audio snobs. Pricks all of them. You have to start somewhere and the simple fact is that just about any HTiB is still going to blow away your TV speakers. If you enjoy your experience then you can upgrade components at a later date when you have more disposable income.

true. Depends on the area as well. I bought the Klipsch GMX for 32 bucks a month for 6 months through their financing plan, and I couldn't be happier. For my 8foot, by tiny 2 foot wide listening area, they are perfect. They only thing they lack is a remote, but I just bought a ps2 extension cable for my keyboard for a buck, and I'm set.