'Republicans turn their back on teachers'

[SmokeyTheBear]

<plus they get 3 months of summer vacation, a ton of benefits, and there's a TON of jobs out there that are longer hours, more stressful, more demanding.>

First, most schools only get 2 maybe 2 1/2 months off. Teachers salaries are based and disbursded on a 12 month calender, there are exceptions.

Second, teaching isnt' just from 8 to 3 or 4. Like several people have stated, teachers have to take work home or stay after to tutor etc. (not including staying after for sports, that's a whole separate thing)

Third, teaching can and is a very stressful job. Teachers have to constantly worry about the safety of students and if classes are over sized or extra work/class loads are put on the teacher that adds to the stress. Also the attitude of kids today are much worse than when I was that age. Some of the things kids watch/listen to and talk about would have landed me in a heap of trouble. Many kids today have no respect for themselves so how can they have respect for anyone else?

Teaching is a very demanding job. Teachers are expected to not only teach the subject but a whole slew of things from manors to respect. It is also very rewarding and today if a teacher and make a difference in one students life they have done a great job. It's very hard to get through to many kids today because they just don't care.

Also, most jobs come with benefits.

 

[Pennstate]

In addition, during the so called &quot;3 months&quot;, most teachers are required to participate in staff training and additional learning such as working in a university lab. They don't just sit on the beach for 3 months

 

[Red Dawn]

<< Excellent idea, please seek out one such teacher, forward a reward gift of $10,000 from your own funds, to him or her. >>

It's a shame that you didn't have such a teacher PalTroll . BTW, I did shell out an extra $9000.00 a year when I sent my Kids to a Private School. Trust me it was well worth it.

Michael

<< I think the majority agrees with me >>

I agree, the majority does agree with you. How's it feel to be one of the sheep?
When I sent my kids to a Private School where the teachers were compensated fairly for their abilities both my boys grades improved dramatically

 

[Pennstate]

I sense a insidous effort here by the conservatives to get rid of public education. Lets keep the teachers' salaries low to drive down the quality of teachers, then we can say how great private schools (btw, not all private schools are good. some are very bad) are and demand that public schools become private schools.

 

[glenn1]

<< I sense a insidous effort here by the conservatives to get rid of public education. Lets keep the teachers' salaries low to drive down the quality of teachers, then we can say how great private schools (btw, not all private schools are good. some are very bad) are and demand that public schools become private schools >>



Sorry, you get an F in your economics. The whole point of the free-market argument is that you CANNOT attempt to set an artificial wage level, either higher or lower than the market rate.

If you set wages artificially low, you will not attract a large enough applicant pool, cannot fill the required number of positions, and will be required to offer higher wages to make up the difference, and will re-establish market rates. If you set wages artificially high, you'll have multiple candidates for each position, who will effectively underbid the salary back down to market levels.

 

[Tiger]

Both of my grandmothers were teachers, my brother and sister are teachers.
To those of you who believe teaching isn't stressfull or demanding you need to spend a day or two following some teachers around. My sister teaches 4th grade. She has 30 kids in her class. Lets see you deal with 30 9yr olds for seven hours a day, not to mention the idiot parents who expect her to raise their kids for them.

Pennstate is right about the extra work involved with being a teacher, but most of that work is towards continuing education and once completed leads to a significant bump in salary. My sister just completed her masters and got a $17K bump in the pay check.

There does need to be accountability in the school system. We need to test the kids and test the teachers. When the teachers and kids exceed the standards we set, we need to reward them. I'm sick to death of hearing about local schoolboards cutting school budgets. My brother teaches in one of the best school systems in his state. The kids score in the top 20% in the country on their tests. The school board there is cutting $300K from the budget because the local voters refuse to approve bond issues to renovate the schools or hire staff.

I've never been one to extoll the virtues of federal programs and think the idea of a federally mandated ciriculum is hogwash. In my brothers case I'm all for it. It's too bad the local voters won't take responsibilty for their own kids but I guess when they don't the feds need to step in. My brother has been teaching for 10 years and only now makes as much as some snot nose script kiddie who admins the local ISP from midnight to 8am.

It's just not right.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

<In addition, during the so called &quot;3 months&quot;, most teachers are required to participate in staff training and additional learning such as working in a university lab. They don't just sit on the beach for 3 months >

Thank you Pennstate!

Also, teachers have to continue going to school and taking classes to keep up to date on what is new in their field. Guess what, the cost of college classes isn't going down!

Teachers also have to (they don't really HAVE to but it sure is a good idea) pay dues to organizations like the NEA which offer legal help for teachers who are accused of things like sexual misconduct (and I know this is a real problem but teachers are wrongly accused as well)or if a child gets hurt in the classroom, who gets the blame, the teacher. Oh it doens't matter if the kids werent' using the tools correctly after being given specific instruction, you 'allowed' my child to get hurt. Again this goes back to the problem of oversized classrooms. It's very hard to watch every child every minute they are in your class especially if you are helping a child on the other side of the room. And it becomes even more difficult for teachers like myself who have classes where students are constantly up and moving around. I teach art and classes with labs have the same problem.

 

[Pennstate]

Sorry, you get an F in current events, AND ECONOMICs.

Teachers's starting salries, as it is now, are not liquid. Most school districts are mandated by the school board (consist of people that you elect) to have a fixed starting salary; which also happens to be Sh8t. If you think the economics are running so smooth, why are there critical teachers shortages???
The Teacher Shortage: Apply, Please!
PBS program on teacher shortages
AS TEACHER SHORTAGE LOOMS, SPECIAL ED. PROGRAMS ARE ESPECIALLY HARD HIT
quick facts

New York City facing severe teacher shortage
more news


If you really know your economics, you would know that SHORTAGES ARE CAUSED BY A NON-EQUILIBRIUM OF SUPPLY/DEMAND CURVES. FRANKLY, there's very little supply of teachers for teaching demands at its current starting salaries.

So how do we cure these shortages. Lets see....How about increase the salaries. Wow, what a novel idea!!! You mean the supply of teachers will increase if you increase the salaries????


In addition, more and more teachers are opting for early retirement. If teaching is such a stress-free and well-compensated job, then why are so many teachers retiring early????

 

[Pennstate]

Another way to see how critical teacher shortages are, just type in &quot;critical teacher shortage&quot; in www.google.com and you'll get a bunch of hit on school districts listing the areas where thye're are in dire need of teachers.

 

[glenn1]

WTF, can you not read? I could have sworn i just made that argument, that if there are more positions open in a given area than applicants to fill them, then wages will rise.... but no, you have to put it your own way, that it's because of the evil mean Republicans keeping wages low.

Read your own damn articles! In the areas where there are teacher shortages, they have been needing to offer them bonuses, higher salaries, and other perks to hire the necessary amount of bodies. When they have enough applicants, wages will stabilize, and equilibrium will be reached.

The mistake you make in your argument is that you assume local shortages (due to offered wages being too low) of teaching candidates is a UNIVERSAL situation, and the cause for your phantom condition is that teachers wages are universally too low. It is just not so. Labor in this country is not static, it is mobile and responsive to market situations. In one county, there might be a severe teacher shortage, and wages will need to go up. In the neighboring county, there might be a surplus of potential teachers, and wages will come down.

 

[Michael]

Red Dawn - Let's ignore the fact (which you already raised) that the cost of tuition causes parents to be even more involved in the education of their children. Also toss out the fact that private schools can pick who they want in their school so they tend to have a better base. Both of those are great to explain why your son's grades were higher, but let's examine the reason you just cited - teachers were paid better so the school had better teachers.

OK - I bet the teachers were not part of the NEA and negotiated their salary directly with the school. As the parents had a free choice, they were willing to pay more and thus give the school more resources to pay higher salaries (imagine if you could have &quot;recovered&quot; the property taxes you paid plus other taxes that went to your local public school). Imagine that, free enterprise caused better results. I always thought you were a closet Rebublican <grin>.

Others - All jobs are &quot;stressfull&quot;. Teaching is less so than the average professional job. The basic fact that you are paid based on seniority and are not held accountable (as in you lose your job or have less pay) for results means less stress.

I was wrong earlier when I said I had 2 teachers in my family. I recounted, I have 4 on my wife's side and a couple of aunts who teach on my side of the family. When a teacher first starts, lesson plans and prep does take extra time. As they get more experienced and have a base to build on, that takes less and less time. An average teacher's hours is not bad compared to the average professional (10+ hours a day, I know my work day was 14+ when I started in public accounting and I only work one weekend day a week on average now that I have 15 years experience). I have spent a fair amount of time around teachers and continue to do so. My opinion on teachers pay shifted dramatically the more I knew. I used to also think they were underpaid, now I think they're paid what they're worth.

I don't begrudge their efforts to make more pay, I try and make more myself every chance I get. It's annoying when they try and use the children they teach as their pawns, but parents can easily counteract that tactic.

I already said that there are spot shortages. NYC has some dangerous schools to teach in, the city is expensive to live in (even more expensive now than ever), and special ed teaching takes far more work and specialized skills than the average teacher is willing to do or has. In those cases, higher wages are needed to attract teachers.

Early retirement is popular with teachers for a few reasons that have nothing to do with how hard the job is. School boards often sweeten the deal to get rid of tenured teachers they can't clear out any other way. Teachers can often retire with close to full benefits and then go work another job and gain two salaries. with the economic boom we just went through, salaries for people with university degrees (just about all teachers, especially the younger ones) rose which made the dual income even more attractive. I would even suggest that the truely skilled ones get very frustrated with the current system that does not reward them for their skills and that leads to personal stress and them leaving early.

As for those who spout what a noble calling being a teacher is, if it is such a noble calling, then the chance to do that type of work is rewarding beyond what they are paid so they don't need as much pay.

Michael

 

[Pennstate]

and the cause for your phantom condition is that teachers wages are universally too low. It is just not so. Labor in this country is not static, it is mobile and responsive to market situations.

The REASON that less and less college students are majoring IS BECAUSE THE NATIONAL TEACHERS SALARY AVERAGE IS LOW! Whether or not a stdent is going to major in education IS INFLUENCED by the porspects of future compensations.

THe truth is that most school district CAN NOT afford to pay enough for competitive (compared to suburbs and other professions) starting salaries and the overall compensation is lower tahn other professions.

Your argument is very weak and irrelavant. Who cares if you know a school has enough teachers. They have enough teachers because they pay ENOUGH. How is the fact that suburb schools have enough teachers relavant to the critical shortages of teachers in other areas especially the cities and rural areas??? Another fatal assumtion that you made is that all candidates are equal. You pay poor wages, you get poor teachers. YOu are not going to get those 3.8 GPA college grads apllying for these poorly compensated positions. You might find a few who will, but the overall altruism in American is lacking. For example, New Trier HS (http://nths.newtrier.k12.il.us/)(a public school is a Chicago Suburb) is super rich. Most of their schience teachers have pHDs. BUt they also pay them over 70K to start. No wonder their students had the highest composite ACT scores in Illinois last year. http://nths.newtrier.k12.il.us/new/200rc.htm. Am I arguing to raise their salaries??? NO. I am arguing to raise teacher salaries in places where the starting salary is 23K and the districts CAN'T collect enough tax revenue to raise that starting point. This is wher ethe government SHOULD STEP IN.



Michael:

What was the reason to become a CPA (that's what you are right)?

Was money part of it? Was respect part of it?

Lets be honest here

If so, then how do you expect that potential college education majors think differently?


Additionally, how would society rate the importance of CPAs compared to teachers?? I am sure the majority will agree that teaching is more important and noble than accounting. But am I against CPAs? NO. I just think teachers (the underpaid ones) should get more money and respect.

 

[Michael]

I'm a Chartered Accountant (Canadian CPA title, I live in the US - California - so that's why I'm commenting here). I chose to become a CA because it is a noble calling (I'm not kidding, read my sig for a little more insight into my world view). Auditors are the few who hold back the financial world from greed and darkness. Starting pay (15 years ago when I started, I turned 35 this week) was about $12,500 US, and was less than what teachers made at that time with far greater work hours and stress. I make far, far more than that today, but if you pick up the accounting professional magazines, you'll see that accounting is suffering from the &quot;we pay too low salaries at the start and are seeing drops in college enrollment blues&quot;. Accounting has a high hurdle - 5 years of university, not just 4, a hard exam to pass, and hard work.

We have just exited a historic economic boom with severe labour shortages. Now that things look choppy, safe but lower paying jobs like teaching will rise in attractiveness. Also, the workforce that was lured away to other jobs instead of teaching will start coming back as those jobs are eliminated during the current downturn. Rushing to raise salaries now is counter-productive.

Teachers get the respect they've earned. As the NEA has promoted their interests over the interests of the children in the teachers' care, the approval and respect for teachers has dropped. Accountants have never been &quot;respected&quot; the same way as other professions are, but it always has been considered to be a solid career choice.

Michael

 

[glenn1]

<< This is where the government SHOULD STEP IN. >>




Well then, you and i will have to agree to disagree. I believe the Federal government should be in no way whatsoever involved with education, an indisputably state and local issue, owing to Constitutional restrictions (Tenth Amendment) and historical precedence. You feel otherwise. Therefore, no argument of mine will convince you to change your opinion, and likewise in turn yours will not convince me.

 

[jaydee]

Bah! Teaching shortages/low wages is not a universal problem. It is a local problem. Therefore, it is then logically foolish to attempt to blanket everything with the federal gov't, or state government. I have yet to see a logical solution from anybody in this thread, and I don't know of one either. For every example you point to 12 hour work days year-round for $20k, I can show you $40k teachers in my district (lower standard of living), that get a ton of benifits, plenty of vactaion, personal days, sick days ect. In fact I'm quite sick of the fact that most teachers in my school take so many freaking days off. Students have a much better attendance rate than the teachers. Another thing is that I have only seen one teacher in my school that has made it to age 60 before retiring. I doubt they do this because they are so incredibly poor. Another thing is when me, a student, knows vastly more about computers than our current comp. util. teacher, its hard too feel sorry for their 'under-appreciation'. It would probably help if the teachers were taught thouroughly the material themselves, and not just how to read out of a teachers manual outloud to a class. I'd like to see a History MAJOR to teach my history class, not a Secondary Ed. major. One final thing is when the school district can't get rid of consistently bad teachers beacuse of friggen tenure.
Of course this is my region, and probably doesn't apply to anyone else. I totally understand where this is clearly not the case. Which is why it is a local situation that requires local attention/solutions.
I guess my conclusion is, its one of those things, that you know is broke, but its rather impossible to fix. Just have to take care of the school in your region best you can, and hope everybody else does the same.
My $.02 on teaching.

 

[Ferocious]

The NEA does it's job well. Though some public teachers are apparantly underpaid a bit.

Seems like some people here are upset because the NEA isn't doing the parents job also??

People need to grow up, stop whining, and take responsibility for their kids.

So many people fail as parents, and they simply refuse to be accountable for their failures. They find it easier to put blame elsewhere.:|

 

[glen]

<< People need to grow up, stop whining, and take responsibility for their kids. >>


Cool, does that mean the Govt. is no longer responsible?
Privatize all schools?

 

[Crimson]

Red Dawn - Do I have to start laying the smack down upon you again?! My God.. If this was the first thread I have ever read from you I would be convinced you were a left wing commie pinko.. I've never seen such liberal gibberish being spewed from your piehole before!

Let me put a couple of myths to rest.. I went to a private highschool.. Want to know how much my ENTIRE family made during that period per year? $25,000.. Yes, thats right.. My ENTIRE family made $25,000 per year and I went to a private school.. My mother, a SINGLE mother, making $25,000 a year sent me to a private school, I guess that kind of refutes your &quot;Only the rich can afford private schools&quot; idea and you bashing of Bush's voucher plan... My mother would have killed for $1500 per year toward my education..

Another myth is that all teachers are underpayed and overworked.. I happen to know 2 teachers in the Milwaukee public school system who openly admit that they have rock solid job security, awesome benefits, and get paid more than fair for their 9 months of work.. Not only that, but they are die hard republicans and think the unions are DEFINITELY holding them back personally and holding back the children they are trying to teach..

Besides that, here's my answer to all teachers who think they are underpaid.. QUIT.. Live in the real world like the rest of us where you can be fired on a moments notice, without ANY reason.. If you think you aren't making enough money, try to find someone else who is willing to pay you as much money as you think you should make... I think the supply and demand arguements are quite valid.. There are way too many people willing to be &quot;Teachers&quot; for low salaries.. if this wasn't the case, Teachers would be making more money..

It also amazes me how afraid people are of standardized testing.. It seems like any time someone mentions anything along the lines of 'accountability' the lefties around here go nuts.. My god! We can't actually hold people RESPONSIBLE for their actions.. NO! That would be horrible!

And if teachers are such &quot;Professionals&quot;, what do they always go on strike? Which is ILLEGAL?! Oh yeah, thats right.. they don't STRIKE, they simply are SICK.. 80% of the school is SICK for a given week, and refuse to write college recommendations for their students.. THATS the sign of real professionals at work.. Screw the children, lets perform illegal job actions which directly impact the children and then claim we are professionals and our only interest is the children...

Whatever..

 

[Red Dawn]

<< If this was the first thread I have ever read from you I would be convinced you were a left wing commie pinko. >>

Yeah well maybe I got a little carried away. My main premise is not as much about the wages it is that the Teachers get way to much blame for Junior being a Dumb Ass when the Parents aren't doing their part in the little knuckle draggers education.

 

[Pennstate]

I happen to know 2 teachers in the Milwaukee public school system who openly admit that they have rock solid job security, awesome benefits, and get paid more than fair for their 9 months of work.. Not only that, but they are die hard republicans and think the unions are DEFINITELY holding them back personally and holding back the children they are trying to teach..

Wow, you know two teachers! The national teacher's salary averge must be a lie then. That's quite a myth buster. BTW, Milwaukee happens to have one of the most creative way to distribute money in their public schools. Kids in Milwaukee can pick the schools that they want to go to. THe schools that are not as good get fewer attendees, but the funding doesn't drop so that these schools can use it to improve its school.

 

[MrPALCO]

Each school offers its product, some offer excellence that is proven.
Some offer mediocrity or poor quality, that is proven.

As a consumer of school services, you are obligated to consume only services that are excellent. If you do, the poor quality school will die a slow, but certain, (government support notwithstanding) death.

 

[Cerb]

From middle GA...



<< Teachers should be paid 2X what they make. Why? Because they are the ones who have the most influence in some children?s lives, and they have a tough job. >>


Influence? I have had TWO teachers who I would say had any influence on me. The influencing should come from parents.

Yeah, tough job, but if they'd actually DO IT, it might not be so bad. Half the problem is teachers who lecture to students instead of allowing them to learn, the other is that too many are grossly underqualified. When you still think Columbus discovered america, should you be teaching american and world history? I'm not saying they are all this way, but most I've encountered are.



<< Didn't EVERYONE here learn everything they know about computers on their own or in a privet class?
Why didn't public school do a better job? >>


::smartass grin:: Because they didn't teach anything about them in 1st-grade.



<< What he was saying is that if people tend to keep that attitude the system WILL NOT get better. >>


Will it get any better if we say it is OK as-is and leave it alone?



<< Wrong, as long as the Parents don't do their part it will never happen. >>


I wish it were that simple. Everyone I know does have parents involved. But the school likes to take its time and lose documents. Then they complain when they have pissed parents requesting meetings.



<< << I went to a Catholic school in Ohio for a year where the teachers were paid $20K a year >>

And if you didn't turn in your homework assignments or if you screwed around in class you were history. >>


Hehe...not as long as the parents kept paying . I found catholic school where I went was a pretty good environment...not only were the parents involved in the school, but the school CARED about that. Now enter the domain of the Public Citizen Assembly Line, AKA School...



<< Tossing more money at teachers will do nothing concerning test scores and overall education. If a kid doesnt want to learn, he doesnt want to lean and he wont regardless of how &quot;good&quot; or &quot;happy&quot; the teacher is. >>


Yes. The problem is that in that, they allow that kid to pass and not learn, and those of who try to learn get pushed to a wall, &quot;Do what you're told and it will all work out.&quot;



<< Most likely. But it's common sense that if the Student does his work he is going to learn and if he can't handle it then it's the parents duty to find out why. >>


Yes, and it is the school's duty to do something about it, yet they don't. When all else fails, lose the forms.

 

[almostmakingit]

I didn't realize this thread was still going.. It's obvious everyone here in one form or another is interested in education.. I was hoping that this interest would lead to a meaningful discussion regarding education reform.. I understand that the one size fits all approach doesn't fit because different areas have different needs..

Speaking on my district school... it has become a political animal handing out jobs to the connected.. and not qualified.. We have one of the highest salaries for teachers in the state of NY.. yet that did nothing to rein in this political animal.. Most of our budget is spent on salaries and benefits and we spend in excess of $16,000 per year per student... Each teacher gets paid extra stipends for plays, tutoring, coaching..etc.. They dare not volunteer or else there own union will file greivance.. When last I checked we had approximately one employee for every three students.. (Probably more now) Our substitute bill alone would knock your socks off... (Even corporations expect you to show up for work) I was only trying to share some of the pitfalls I encountered, especially where some of the reforms touted amounted hype and succeeded in doing nothing.. I don't know if it's the same in other states but this politics has been spreading across the Long Island area and my biggest fear is that my district will be coming to a district near you...

 

[Tiger]

almostmakingit,

Compare the $16K/student on L.I. to the $3.4K/student in my brothers district.
Then compare test scores, they hang right in there with the best.
A beginning teacher in that state makes aproximately $22K/yr. A ten year vet like my brother makes $29-31K depending on extra assignments. Something is clearly out of whack.

If a begining teacher in that state has a choice between a noble profession like teaching and flipping burgers for the same pay, why would anybody bother teaching?

 

[almostmakingit]

Tiger I understand..

My point is that $16,000 per year per student still isn't enough... Our salaries are very competitive.. The best private schools cost about $6,000 a year... There is a systemic problem here..

I just found this..
it's a bit long but an interesting read.. An argument for getting back to basics Let me know what you think..