Republicans know they're in trouble once the website problems are solved

[compuwiz1]

This is based on what exactly?

By knocking the knees out of the medical insurance companies. It's a huge blow to the free enterprise system and there will be a domino effect. All ancilliary businesses will also go bankrupt. You will see many medical professionals leaving us. Sorry if I can see farther down the road on this, but it's a disaster.

I am in a business that sells automobiles. We are seeing a slowdown already because people are suspending purchases because they don't know how this new healthcare law is going to affect their budgets. The economy hangs in the balance and some of us are seeing it now, yet people act like healthcare reform is the most important issue we have on our plates. A great economy can afford us the ability to take care of our people better than the government ever could or will.

 

[ivwshane]

By knocking the knees out of the medical insurance companies. It's a huge blow to the free enterprise system and there will be a domino effect. All ancilliary businesses will also go bankrupt. You will see many medical professionals leaving us. Sorry if I can see farther down the road on this, but it's a disaster.

I am in a business that sells automobiles. We are seeing a slowdown already because people are suspending purchases because they don't know how this new healthcare law is going to affect their budgets. The economy hangs in the balance and some of us are seeing it now, yet people act like healthcare reform is the most important issue we have on our plates. A great economy can afford us the ability to take care of our people better than the government ever could or will.

Now if I told you the exact opposite of what just wrote, with zero citations/studies etc, would you believe it? I would imagine you wouldn't. So try again but this time use credible data to back up your feelings.

You could very well be right but I tend not to believe everything anyone says, no matter how true they think it is😉

 

[WhipperSnapper]

America was built on capitalism and a free market. When the government decides to blow away a large insurance industry and replace it with single payer, government owned and controlled insurance, we are no longer a free country.

How do you define "free country" and "freedom"? Is a nation truly a free country if 5% of the populace owns almost all of the wealth and the other 95% lives in what is essentially servitude to that other 5%, always fearing job loss, loss home, loss of health insurance, etc.?

Also, is it possible that certain goods and services are just not very compatible with a perfect competition model? For example, if you're having a heart attack, you can't shop around and you can't choose to do without the service. You can't try to "grow it own your own" either. Medical expenses also tend to be opaque and very difficult to predict.

Amazingly, those evil "communist" nations with their socialized medicine seem to be making it work, and their systems are working far far better than ours for a fraction of the cost. That's not fiction. It's fact.

This is communism folks.

Communism! Fear! It's not communism, it's just a fraction of our societal structure. Having socialism in one fraction does not make the entire nation or society socialist or communist, just like having a socialized police force or military or fire department or public schools does not make the entire nation communist.

In fact, it could be argued that if socilalized medicine is superior to free market and quasi-free market medicine that it provides more actual freedom. Freedom also means not having to worry about medical expenses or the prospect of medical bill-induced bankruptcy.

How did that work out for the soviet union?

Thank goodness that in reality the only options are not all out communism with lunatic dictators or pure laissez-faire capitalism. There all sorts of degrees and mixtures of socialism and capitalism that can be present in an economy.

People trying to compare us to foreign countries just don't get it. We're different, our foundation is different and our freedoms are unique. I don't understand why so many people are so against our great way of life.

...Because our great way of life is not so great. It's great if you're a member of the top 5% or top 20% and not so great if you're a member of the bottom 50%. People in those evil socialist people's states often have a higher quality of life, such as the Scandinavian countries.

What exactly are our unique freedoms, anyway? In our nation we have Big Government in the bedroom regulating abortion and morning after pills. In some states gay people cannot get married. In the past interracial marriage and homosexual relations were illegal in many states. Also, drugs such as marijuana are illegal and we have "consensual crimes" which makes prostitution illegal. In recent times the government has begun spying on people.

What are these "unique freedoms" that people in other first world nations do not have? Keep in mind that other nation's have businesses and a private sector, so obviously that's not amazingly unique.

How have our "unique freedoms" served us? We have a small percentage of people, banksters and business executives, that end up receiving more compensation than their actual contribution to the act of wealth production--at the expense of lower level workers. Is that our unique freedom--that some people can become very rich at the expense of others? That wealth will concentrate in the hands of a small percentage of the populace?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Look knuckle dragger, a multi-billion dollar health insurance industry does much more for the economy, than a government entity will ever do. The people who profit from it spend their money back into the economy and that creates jobs.

Wouldn't government doctors and nurses also put their money back into the economy? Don't police, military, and firemen put money back into the economy?

What you and your ilk do not seem to grasp, is that these corporations employ people, they require suppliers who employ people and those people buy things with the money they earn. They buy and build homes. They provide $$$ to their communities. That's how a real economy works.

The problem with the insurance companies, medical billings specialists, medical accountants, insurance brokers, company benefits plan managers, and medical industry advertisers is that none of their work provides any direct medical care. They are just a huge overhead expense, like a parasite. The jobs they are performing are essentially "make work" jobs that would not need to be done under efficient socialized medicine.

That's why our nation is spending 17.6% of its GDP and getting less health care that other nations that spend much less.

Yeah, those people put money back into the economy, but they aren't actually producing any aggregate wealth. Their work isn't of any real value. Employing them is like building structures for the purpose of tearing them down.

Under more efficient socialized medicine, a smaller percentage of our GDP would be spent on health care, or at least we would receive much more health care for the same percentage of GDP (lost insurance company jobs would be replaced with an increased number of jobs for doctors and nurses). The insurance industry employees would end up having to find jobs that produce real value, such as home construction or providing actual medical care, etc.

Single payer is going to do extreme, unrecoverable damage to the economy.

Like it has to the Scandinavian countries? How much damage do you think our current quasi-market system is doing to our economy? Businesses practically can't take a piss without having to think about health insurance issues. Our current system is doing a huge amount of damage to our nation's economy.

Whatever...there will be no republican mud on this mess. The dems own it. I promise you that this is a case of "be careful what you wish for". You get to eat it too.

Obamacare is the Republican health care plan. It's what the Republicans advocated as an alternative to socialized medicine. The Republicans supported and advocated a plan very similar to Obamacare before they were against it.

Furthermore, Obamacare itself is not our health care system. It's just a small patch on top of it. Our health care system is the quasi-market system with insurance companies and private hospitals. The Republicans have shown no interest in changing that system and supported the status quo. Thus, they have ownership of it, even Obamacare.

 

[michal1980]

We're the laughing stock of the civilized world, but it's not all Obama's fault. Obama would probably liked to have instituted a health care program similar to what other nations have. Instead we ended up with the Republican plan for health care. (Obamacare is really the Republican's plan.)

In other news, a Republican candidate just said what (!?!) about rape? Talk about being the laughing stock of the civilized world. We have advocates of Christian Sharia law running for office.

Liberal Democrats pass Obamacare. Blame republicans.

How fucked in the head are you.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

You say "more efficient". I'm reminded of a fellow who told my father about a great restaurant. We went there and had one of the worst meals of our lives. When my father told him just hoe bad it was he replied "well yeah but it's cheap and a lot of food".

OK, I'm a provider. I have a thread going about conflict between government patient where I tell about how our "efficient" congressmen are doing harm for no good reason. Why don't you tell me what to say to them so they'll believe the same people will not do it again when they are able to tell me and others how to practice? When we cannot help because it's a crime? Please don't mention anywhere else. This is where ignorant Republicans and Democrats fish for votes using people's health as bait.

Some years ago I had someone who died because of HIV. He had Medicaid but the state decided to reissue new cards with new numbers because of widespread fraud. In principal that's a good thing and what could go wrong? He couldn't get his meds, and he died, that's what. But that can't happen? Sure it can when ignorance is all controlling. To prevent fraud Medicaid workers could give no one the correct numbers. Patients had to wait until their cards arrived. What could go wrong? That's as simple a thing as could be. Perhaps but the ones many see as salvation killed this man because of it. How? The date the regs kicked in was set in stone but somehow there was a delay in getting the cards made and out. No card no care. So I want you to stand in my shoes and tell me how you would tell this man the reason he has to die and that the same people who won't even return your call from their offices will not let this happen because although they got the easiest thing imaginable wrong with fatal consequence will do better with something a million times harder and completely beyond their understanding. He's dying in front of you. Go on, tell him.

 

[Jhhnn]

Liberal Democrats pass Obamacare. Blame republicans.

How fucked in the head are you.

Gawd. Moderate Dems bend over backwards to bring Repubs onboard with healthcare reform, pass Romneycare. Bitter & resentful Repubs spit in their eye, welcome the distraction from the fact that their policies crashed the economy while making the already Rich even richer at the expense of everybody else.

Streets everywhere are named after them- "One Way".

 

[Matt1970]

Gawd. Moderate Dems bend over backwards to bring Repubs onboard with healthcare reform, pass Romneycare. Bitter & resentful Repubs spit in their eye, welcome the distraction from the fact that their policies crashed the economy while making the already Rich even richer at the expense of everybody else.

Streets everywhere are named after them- "One Way".

Righties' faith in their most cherished beliefs is inviolable, beyond question. The myth of the Libruhl Media is one of them.

As intended, it poisons the well of their own consciousnesses, preventing full functionality.

Trying to see how high you can stack the bullshit today?

 

[ivwshane]

Well according to you, you tell him you are sorry because you feel the government program he uses is flawed and you feel the government program shouldn't exist. You then tell him he should get coverage from a private insurer where you can then deny him his medicine because it's not covered by his plan or deny him because he can't afford to pay for insurance on the private market.

So now when things don't work you no longer have to blame an incompetent government program you can just blame the free market, I'm sure it will be easier to advocate the changes you feel are needed in that system anyway. All you have to do is convince the marketplace that it's profitable to cover sick people, an easy task I'm sure.

You say "more efficient". I'm reminded of a fellow who told my father about a great restaurant. We went there and had one of the worst meals of our lives. When my father told him just hoe bad it was he replied "well yeah but it's cheap and a lot of food".

OK, I'm a provider. I have a thread going about conflict between government patient where I tell about how our "efficient" congressmen are doing harm for no good reason. Why don't you tell me what to say to them so they'll believe the same people will not do it again when they are able to tell me and others how to practice? When we cannot help because it's a crime? Please don't mention anywhere else. This is where ignorant Republicans and Democrats fish for votes using people's health as bait.

Some years ago I had someone who died because of HIV. He had Medicaid but the state decided to reissue new cards with new numbers because of widespread fraud. In principal that's a good thing and what could go wrong? He couldn't get his meds, and he died, that's what. But that can't happen? Sure it can when ignorance is all controlling. To prevent fraud Medicaid workers could give no one the correct numbers. Patients had to wait until their cards arrived. What could go wrong? That's as simple a thing as could be. Perhaps but the ones many see as salvation killed this man because of it. How? The date the regs kicked in was set in stone but somehow there was a delay in getting the cards made and out. No card no care. So I want you to stand in my shoes and tell me how you would tell this man the reason he has to die and that the same people who won't even return your call from their offices will not let this happen because although they got the easiest thing imaginable wrong with fatal consequence will do better with something a million times harder and completely beyond their understanding. He's dying in front of you. Go on, tell him.

 

[Incorruptible]

Well according to you, you tell him you are sorry because you feel the government program he uses is flawed and you feel the government program shouldn't exist. You then tell him he should get coverage from a private insurer where you can then deny him his medicine because it's not covered by his plan or deny him because he can't afford to pay for insurance on the private market.

So now when things don't work you no longer have to blame an incompetent government program you can just blame the free market, I'm sure it will be easier to advocate the changes you feel are needed in that system anyway. All you have to do is convince the marketplace that it's profitable to cover sick people, an easy task I'm sure.

Government has no right to be involved with healthcare. Socialized medicine is wrong and won't work.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Well according to you, you tell him you are sorry because you feel the government program he uses is flawed and you feel the government program shouldn't exist. You then tell him he should get coverage from a private insurer where you can then deny him his medicine because it's not covered by his plan or deny him because he can't afford to pay for insurance on the private market.

So now when things don't work you no longer have to blame an incompetent government program you can just blame the free market, I'm sure it will be easier to advocate the changes you feel are needed in that system anyway. All you have to do is convince the marketplace that it's profitable to cover sick people, an easy task I'm sure.

No, I'd rather you hand that line of bull chit to her. You offer a false dichotomy as an excuse. There's an immediate need and it's because those you embrace caused it, then you come in with this lame third grade trick. None of what you posted is relevant to this woman's situation. You can't justify so you deflect. It seems religious fundamentalism has taken a new form and you make a good follower.

 

[ivwshane]

No, I'd rather you hand that line of bull chit to her. You offer a false dichotomy as an excuse. There's an immediate need and it's because those you embrace caused it, then you come in with this lame third grade trick. None of what you posted is relevant to this woman's situation. You can't justify so you deflect. It seems religious fundamentalism has taken a new form and you make a good follower.

By all means, show us the way cult leader!

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

By all means, show us the way cult leader!

So I'm upset because there is a need blocked for no good reason. I correctly identify the cause and you jump in spitting nonsense which has nothing to do with her. You don't care about what harms or helps, you are a prophet of ignorance who has not offered any thoughts but to toe the party line. That's all you care about and I recognize you as one who has the same mentality which got us into war before. Your one true god with feet of clay, the whisperer of "he's right you know", the purveyor of ignorance. You, the 6 day creationist who only refuses to think, but derides those who question. Congratulations, you are number 2 on the ignore list as you offer nothing but noise.

 

[ivwshane]

So I'm upset because there is a need blocked for no good reason. I correctly identify the cause and you jump in spitting nonsense which has nothing to do with her. You don't care about what harms or helps, you are a prophet of ignorance who has not offered any thoughts but to toe the party line. That's all you care about and I recognize you as one who has the same mentality which got us into war before. Your one true god with feet of clay, the whisperer of "he's right you know", the purveyor of ignorance. You, the 6 day creationist who only refuses to think, but derides those who question. Congratulations, you are number 2 on the ignore list as you offer nothing but noise.

Lol!

So you just like bitching and when it's suggested how the problem gets fixed you just bitch some more?

Let's see:

Old and poor people dying because if not being able to get medical coverage, government steps in a creates Medicare and medicaid.

Fraud and abuse plague the above so the government steps in and addresses the issue.

Insurance companies lie and cheat their policy holders and the government steps in and creates the ACA to protect and cover more people.

No system is perfect, none! But if there were a system to be created I'd want one that's beholden to the American people and not to the dollar.

What you want is some mythical system that doesn't exist, you preach salvation with zero, zero ways to acheive it and you have the nerve to get pissy when someone calls you out on it?

Just take your ball and go home, you've already left once because people where "bullying" you. Obviously the Internet is too mean for you so you should probably just cancel your Internet service while you are at it.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Liberal Democrats pass Obamacare. Blame republicans.

The Democrats would have wanted to implement single payer, socialized medicine. That's what they were supporting in the '90's. The Republicans came up with the idea of Obamacare as an alternative plan to keep the insurance companies and private hospitals (and all their wealthy executives) in business.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Government has no right to be involved with healthcare. Socialized medicine is wrong and won't work.

Are you saying that it isn't working in all of those other first world nations that spend less on health care than we do and get more?

 

[Incorruptible]

Are you saying that it isn't working in all of those other first world nations that spend less on health care than we do and get more?

Free markets work better. And you're lying about the US healthcare system. You refuse to address the root causes.

It's idiotic to suggest the US needs socialized medicine. Capitalism works and socialism doesn't.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

<snip> And you're lying about the US healthcare system. <snip>.

Got proof of this claim indigestible?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Got proof of this claim indigestible?

Once again this is not the point. We need reform based on patient needs that support providers for this purpose. I work for a private company and the thing they care about is the financial gain. They have no clue as to health care. So lets replace them with those who care about political gain. They have no clue regarding healthcare. You notice a commonality?

People ought to be clamoring for other options, but the majority, who have no clue regarding healthcare, believe in one side or the other.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Lol!

So you just like bitching and when it's suggested how the problem gets fixed you just bitch some more?

Let's see:

Old and poor people dying because if not being able to get medical coverage, government steps in a creates Medicare and medicaid.

Fraud and abuse plague the above so the government steps in and addresses the issue.

Insurance companies lie and cheat their policy holders and the government steps in and creates the ACA to protect and cover more people.

No system is perfect, none! But if there were a system to be created I'd want one that's beholden to the American people and not to the dollar.

What you want is some mythical system that doesn't exist, you preach salvation with zero, zero ways to acheive it and you have the nerve to get pissy when someone calls you out on it?

Just take your ball and go home, you've already left once because people where "bullying" you. Obviously the Internet is too mean for you so you should probably just cancel your Internet service while you are at it.

13 years on this board and you're #2 on his ignore list. That's telling you something...but I'm sure such things fall on deaf ears.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Once again this is not the point. We need reform based on patient needs that support providers for this purpose. I work for a private company and the thing they care about is the financial gain. They have no clue as to health care. So lets replace them with those who care about political gain. They have no clue regarding healthcare. You notice a commonality?

People ought to be clamoring for other options, but the majority, who have no clue regarding healthcare, believe in one side or the other.

As someone who was openly denied insurance due to pre-existing conditions, I welcome the ACA, and while it is not perfect, pretty fucking far from it, it's better than nothing, which is exactly what we had.
This thing needed to be jump started, and it wasn't going to be pretty. It did get the ball rolling, and for those of us who were under-insured, un-insurable, it was a damn good thing.

Trust me, when you're looking down the barrel of open-heart surgery without any insurance, you'd understand.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

As someone who was openly denied insurance due to pre-existing conditions, I welcome the ACA, and while it is not perfect, pretty fucking far from it, it's better than nothing, which is exactly what we had.
This thing needed to be jump started, and it wasn't going to be pretty. It did get the ball rolling, and for those of us who were under-insured, un-insurable, it was a damn good thing.

Trust me, when you're looking down the barrel of open-heart surgery without any insurance, you'd understand.

I understand the need for insurance, and it's great to have when you need it, but what if changes price it out of your reach? What if you have insurance but are kept from using it? What if you there is something you need but you can't get it and those providing it are forbidden to get it to you by law?

The goal is noble but due diligence was not given. We have lowered our expectations of our representatives that anything is satisfactory? I hope the surgeon has higher standards than those we defend.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

PS, I support preexisting conditions being covered, but that did not require that the ACA be sold as something it was not.

 

[michal1980]

I understand the need for insurance, and it's great to have when you need it, but what if changes price it out of your reach? What if you have insurance but are kept from using it? What if you there is something you need but you can't get it and those providing it are forbidden to get it to you by law?

The goal is noble but due diligence was not given. We have lowered our expectations of our representatives that anything is satisfactory? I hope the surgeon has higher standards than those we defend.

Correct. Passing bullshit is better then not passing anything.

 

[Angry Irishman]

Any way ACA is spun it's an effort to socialize medicine...period. Given the governments track record of inefficiency, corruption, deceit, and willingness to print money its doomed to be very expensive and will most likely fail or turn into something different. Bigger government isn't the answer and God forbid anyone oppose the cult members on here who say otherwise. I don't recall reading anywhere in the Constitution the need or right of the federal government to control health care.