Republicans know they're in trouble once the website problems are solved

[Doc Savage Fan]

The problem with your analogy is that when you need a car and you don't have one, the only person that is fucked is you. Meanwhile when you get really sick or injured and you don't have insurance, everyone else is fucked along with you.

Nope...you just go to the Emergency Room like you always have. Nothing has changed in this regard.

 

[dank69]

Nope...you just go to the Emergency Room like you always have. Nothing has changed in this regard.

I didn't realize the ER is free, my bad. Also didn't realize you can get regular cancer treatment at the ER. My bad again.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

I didn't realize the ER is free, my bad. Also didn't realize you can get regular cancer treatment at the ER. My bad again.

You apparently missed my point...but I'm somehow not surprised.

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba709

 

[dank69]

You apparently missed my point...but I'm somehow not surprised.

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba709

Are we pretending the mandate/penalty do not exist?

 

[boomerang]

The problem with your analogy is that when you need a car and you don't have one, the only person that is fucked is you. Meanwhile when you get really sick or injured and you don't have insurance, everyone else is fucked along with you.

You've forgotten that there will still be tens of millions without insurance. Like you said, we'll still all be fucked.

You can't ignore certain aspects of this bill and you can't pretend certain aspects don't exist. Nobody is mandated to get insurance because they can pay a tax in lieu of having it. If you're one of the tens of millions here illegally, you are precluded from getting insurance even if you wanted it. I know of no part of the law that allows emergency rooms to turn people away if they have no insurance. If it's in there I would like to know.

There will be little change in the status quo from the perspective of who is insured. Wishing doesn't make it so.

 

[dank69]

You've forgotten that there will still be tens of millions without insurance. Like you said, we'll still all be fucked.

You can't ignore certain aspects of this bill and you can't pretend certain aspects don't exist. Nobody is mandated to get insurance because they can pay a tax in lieu of having it. If you're one of the tens of millions here illegally, you are precluded from getting insurance even if you wanted it. I know of no part of the law that allows emergency rooms to turn people away if they have no insurance. If it's in there I would like to know.

There will be little change in the status quo from the perspective of who is insured. Wishing doesn't make it so.

Oh, so we're pretending that the penalties collected for not carrying insurance won't be used to offset the cost of uninsured ER visits.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Are we pretending the mandate/penalty do not exist?

It doesn't matter...it will not have any significant positive effect on ER usage. And I'm not pretending anything...reality will be poking up it's ugly head shortly.

 

[boomerang]

Oh, so we're pretending that the penalties collected for not carrying insurance won't be used to offset the cost of uninsured ER visits.

Don't tear off your fingernails clinging in desperation.

 

[boomerang]

Obamacare - it's the Zil of health insurance, good for all citizens.

Da! And approved by Central Planning!

 

[dank69]

It doesn't matter...it will not have any significant positive effect on ER usage. And I'm not pretending anything...reality will be poking up it's ugly head shortly.

We'll have to wait and see, won't we? In the meantime, I assume the ERs will be reimbursed for services rendered to the uninsured out of the penalties collected, thus those costs will no longer be passed on to you or me. Feel free to send the ER any extra money you have lying around if you miss that feeling, though.

Don't tear off your fingernails clinging in desperation.

Oh, boomer, how can I possibly win when you are the sole judge of victory conditions? Simply asking why you are ignoring important factors equates to desperation. :'(

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Oh, so we're pretending that the penalties collected for not carrying insurance won't be used to offset the cost of uninsured ER visits.

If anyone is pretending it's those who believe that enough young people will actually enroll to offset the costs of millions of those now signing up with pre-existing conditions (adverse selection)...much less the costs associated with 32mm uninsured people still using emergency room visits for their primary healthcare needs.

 

[dank69]

If anyone is pretending it's those who believe that enough young people will actually enroll to offset the costs of millions of those now signing up with pre-existing conditions (adverse selection)...much less the costs associated with 32mm uninsured people still using emergency room visits for their primary healthcare needs.

I'm sure you did all the calculations yourself? Well it's settled then.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

I'm sure you did all the calculations yourself? Well it's settled then.

I read...you should try it.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Oh, so we're pretending that the penalties collected for not carrying insurance won't be used to offset the cost of uninsured ER visits.

Nope:

1) Penalties are collected at the Federal level IF paid

2) ER visits by uninsured are not controlled by a government entity. The hospitals are not being given authorization within the ACA (that I have heard) to bill the Feds for the uninsured. where are they going to go to get reimbursed?

 

[First]

I read...you should try it.

lol.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

lol.

He makes zero effort. Anyway, I said 32mm from memory....CBO says it should go as low as 30mm (uninsured nonelderly) by 2017 if everything goes as planned.

http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/fi...ffordableCareActHealthInsuranceCoverage_2.pdf

 

[shira]

Nope:

1) Penalties are collected at the Federal level IF paid

2) ER visits by uninsured are not controlled by a government entity. The hospitals are not being given authorization within the ACA (that I have heard) to bill the Feds for the uninsured. where are they going to go to get reimbursed?

There will be fewer uninsured under the ACA than there are now. This will reduce the burden on hospitals. Thus, federal subsidies are being reduced.

http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/stories/2012/october/11/health-care-immigrants.aspx

Recognizing that more health centers would be needed to help care for the estimated 30 million newly insured, Congress included in the health law $11 billion over five years for community health centers. However, Congress in 2011 cut $600 million from health center funding. Unless Congress restores that money, the cuts will continue and over five years will trim $3 billion off the $11 billion.

Federal payments to hospitals are also going to be reduced. Because they expected to see fewer uninsured patients as a result of the health law, hospitals agreed to cuts in federal funding to reimburse facilities caring for the uninsured. Called disproportionate share payments, the money is scheduled to be scaled back by about $18 billion from 2014 to 2020.

 

[werepossum]

If anyone is pretending it's those who believe that enough young people will actually enroll to offset the costs of millions of those now signing up with pre-existing conditions (adverse selection)...much less the costs associated with 32mm uninsured people still using emergency room visits for their primary healthcare needs.

Kentucky said 82% of enrollees signed up for the expanded Medicaid. Given that other evaluations have seen the non-Medicaid exchange enrollees as vastly disproportionally older people, it's apparent that much more painful penalties will be required to make healthy young men willingly subsidize everyone else. Well, those who are not themselves being subsidized.

 

[shira]

Kentucky said 82% of enrollees signed up for the expanded Medicaid. Given that other evaluations have seen the non-Medicaid exchange enrollees as vastly disproportionally older people, it's apparent that much more painful penalties will be required to make healthy young men willingly subsidize everyone else. Well, those who are not themselves being subsidized.

Let's all jump to conclusions about what the numbers will be on March 31, 2014. Because we all know that no one faced with a task they'd rather not perform never waits until the last minute to do it.

 

[werepossum]

Let's all jump to conclusions about what the numbers will be on March 31, 2014. Because we all know that no one faced with a task they'd rather not perform never waits until the last minute to do it.

That is certainly a valid point. Those whose health insurance is going to be paid by others have the most incentive to sign up early, whereas those tasked with financing others' health insurance from their own pockets have an incentive to hold off until the last minute. We may yet see a flood of eager young men with checkbooks in hand. If not, penalties will be made more draconian each year until they do flood in. In the mean time though, the left has been saying that Obamacare can only work if healthy young people sign up (something with which at least part of the right agreed, as evidence of their embracing of the individual mandate to avoid the abomination of Hilarycare) and to date, that isn't happening. We're probably looking at a third of a year before we can force those healthy young people to step up and pay for our health insurance, at best.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Nope:

1) Penalties are collected at the Federal level IF paid

2) ER visits by uninsured are not controlled by a government entity. The hospitals are not being given authorization within the ACA (that I have heard) to bill the Feds for the uninsured. where are they going to go to get reimbursed?

There will be fewer uninsured under the ACA than there are now. This will reduce the burden on hospitals. Thus, federal subsidies are being reduced.

http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/stories/2012/october/11/health-care-immigrants.aspx

Recognizing that more health centers would be needed to help care for the estimated 30 million newly insured, Congress included in the health law $11 billion over five years for community health centers. However, Congress in 2011 cut $600 million from health center funding. Unless Congress restores that money, the cuts will continue and over five years will trim $3 billion off the $11 billion.

Federal payments to hospitals are also going to be reduced. Because they expected to see fewer uninsured patients as a result of the health law, hospitals agreed to cuts in federal funding to reimburse facilities caring for the uninsured. Called disproportionate share payments, the money is scheduled to be scaled back by about $18 billion from 2014 to 2020.

There is already funding to hospitals

However, there is no procedure in the ACA for hospitals to request additional funding for the uninsured.

The system (ACA) is hoping that the insured goes up enough while the uninsured counts goes down to offset the drop in funding.
If the uninsured have not been able to get insurance at this point; even if subsidized; there are deductibles to be covered.

It may be easier on them to claim no insurance than to file and get the bill because of the deductible.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Nope:

1) Penalties are collected at the Federal level IF paid

2) ER visits by uninsured are not controlled by a government entity. The hospitals are not being given authorization within the ACA (that I have heard) to bill the Feds for the uninsured. where are they going to go to get reimbursed?

There will be fewer uninsured under the ACA than there are now. This will reduce the burden on hospitals. Thus, federal subsidies are being reduced.

http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/stories/2012/october/11/health-care-immigrants.aspx

Recognizing that more health centers would be needed to help care for the estimated 30 million newly insured, Congress included in the health law $11 billion over five years for community health centers. However, Congress in 2011 cut $600 million from health center funding. Unless Congress restores that money, the cuts will continue and over five years will trim $3 billion off the $11 billion.

Federal payments to hospitals are also going to be reduced. Because they expected to see fewer uninsured patients as a result of the health law, hospitals agreed to cuts in federal funding to reimburse facilities caring for the uninsured. Called disproportionate share payments, the money is scheduled to be scaled back by about $18 billion from 2014 to 2020.

There is already funding to hospitals

However, there is no procedure in the ACA for hospitals to request additional funding for the uninsured.

the system is hoping that the insured goes up while the uninsured goes down.
If the uninsured have not been able to get insurance at this point; even if subsidized; there are deductibles to be covered.

It may be easier on them to claim no insurance than to file and get the bill because of the deductible. A 3-4K deductible is not what the newly insured want to be faced with.

 

[shira]

there is already funding to hospitals

However, there is no procedure in the ACA for hospitals to request additional funding for the uninsured.

the system is hoping that the insured goes up while the uninsured goes down.
If the uninsured have not been able to get insurance at this point; even if subsidized; there are deductibles to be covered.

It may be easier on them to claim no insurance than to file and get the bill because of the deductible.

So what's your point? Clearly there will be fewer uninsured people under the ACA. Clearly, that means that hospitals won't need as much of a subsidy as before. And, obviously, as with every other entitlement program, some recipients will try to game the system. If it's determined that the hospitals aren't bringing in enough money or the number of people gaming the system is greater than expected, I'm guessing that as this all plays out there will be adjustments to the rules.

Maybe you should wait and see what happens before predicting chaos.

 

[werepossum]

So what's your point? Clearly there will be fewer uninsured people under the ACA. Clearly, that means that hospitals won't need as much of a subsidy as before. And, obviously, as with every other entitlement program, some recipients will try to game the system. If it's determined that the hospitals aren't bringing in enough money or the number of people gaming the system is greater than expected, I'm guessing that as this all plays out there will be adjustments to the rules.

Maybe you should wait and see what happens before predicting chaos.

That is the intent, but it may well not be the fact. Millions of people are losing health insurance due to the ACA; so far, tens of thousands are getting health insurance due to the ACA. At least for the first couple years we may well see vastly more people without health insurance due to the ACA.

 

[shira]

That is the intent, but it may well not be the fact. Millions of people are losing health insurance due to the ACA; so far, tens of thousands are getting health insurance due to the ACA. At least for the first couple years we may well see vastly more people without health insurance due to the ACA.

This canard has been soundly refuted. Rather than derail this thread proving yet again that this is just another baseless claim that keeps being repeated like a tired joke, I invite you to do a little googling.