Republicans flunk math

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
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Conservatives are in denial: They claim that limiting the federal budget to 19.9% of GDP - decreasing over time to 18% of GDP - will solve all our fiscal problems. Turns out they're not even close to being correct.

An opinion piece from a conservative columnist at the Washington Post.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-gops-fuzzy-math/2011/07/20/gIQANu3hPI_story_1.html

The GOP’s fuzzy math

It’s one thing for a political party to lose its moral bearings – after all, community values evolve, and large swaths of people and their elected representatives can end up on the wrong side of history on such questions as slavery, suffrage, and civil rights. But when a party loses its mathematical bearings – well, that’s a little shocking.

Yet that’s what’s happened to the Republican Party. The debt ceiling endgame has exposed the denial gripping the GOP in the face of the inevitable loss of “lower taxes” as the core of the party’s identity. You can feel the Republicans’ pain; tax cuts have been the party’s defining issue since Ronald Reagan rode them to power in 1980. But in an aging America, the numbers no longer work, and Republicans have failed to develop a new conservative vision to replace their fading mantra.

The “cap, cut and balance” plan passed by the House Tuesday night captures Republican denial perfectly. The plan would cap federal spending at 19.9 percent of GDP by 2018, with the goal of lowering it to18 percent over time. Similar caps have been endorsed by most of the GOP’s presidential candidates.

You’d never know from listening to Republicans that these goals are mathematically and politically unattainable.

But they are. Why? If there’s one fact you need to emblazon in your mind to make sense of the current debate, it is that Ronald Reagan ran the federal government at 22 percent of GDP back when our population was much younger. (Under President Obama, the extraordinary measures enacted to fight the recession – plus a collapse in the denominator, GDP -- have boosted spending to around 24 percent, while revenue has dropped to 15 percent from its 18-19 percent longtime average).

It is simply not plausible to argue that as we double the number of seniors on Social Security and Medicare, Uncle Sam will be able to operate at spending levels 10 to 20 percent below those over which America’s modern conservative icon presided. (Though, as my colleague Dana Milbank notes, Reagan agreed to raise taxes 11 times.) Today there’s no question: Taxes must rise.

Republican “thinking” about these facts is telling. According to the Wall Street Journal, House leaders picked 19.9 percent as their cap “because it is in line with the average spending level over the last thirty years.”

Well, sorry, GOP: The average spending levels of the last 30 years are irrelevant because we weren’t retiring 76 million baby boomers over the last 30 years. And decades ago per capita health costs for seniors were far smaller than they are today.


Let me pause so there’s no caricaturing of these views as belonging to some “tax and spend liberal.” I’ve advocated more “conservative” changes to Social Security than Paul Ryan did in his budget or his prior “roadmap.” I’ve urged progressives to realize that if we don’t slow Medicare’s outsized growth, there will be no money left for poor children, infrastructure, or R&D. And I’ve said we need to learn from countries like Singapore that get outstanding results in health care while spending a fraction of what we spend. So count me as a longtime entitlement reformer who has the arrows from my friends on the left to prove it.

Here’s the point: Even if we enacted the platonic ideal of sane entitlement reform, and trimmed defense (as we need to), Republican budget math still doesn’t come close to adding up. Instead, as my colleagues at the Center for American Progress have shown, shrinking spending to sub-Reagan levels while retiring the boomers would involve dramatic cuts in everything else Americans think of as government – from national parks to NASA to the FBI to cancer research to student loans.

So why does the GOP pretend otherwise? Because acknowledging mathematical reality is too politically painful. Because uttering this simple phrase – “to accommodate the retirement of the baby boomers, taxes will need to rise” – is forbidden by official Republican doctrine.

Because official Republican doctrine has banned honest math.

Aversion to honest math explains why the Ryan budget embraced by the GOP doesn’t balance the budget — even after Medicare changes that may prove fatal to the party -- until the 2030s and racks up at least $14 trillion in debt between now and then.

That’s because the Ryan budget cuts taxes. Balanced budget math in an aging America doesn’t work without higher taxes.

This doesn’t mean we shouldn’t cut taxes in the near-term to goose the economy. But when it comes to a long-term fiscal fix, the GOP’s math anxiety has produced months of debt ceiling charades instead of framing the debate we really need, which is this: Once the economy has more fully recovered, how do we lift taxes to fund the boomers’ retirement in ways least harmful to economic growth?

My own view is that this means slashing payroll taxes and corporate income taxes, while more than offsetting those tax cuts with higher taxes on consumption and dirty energy. But we can’t even get to this conversation until Republicans relinquish the fantasy that we can keep cutting overall taxes as America ages.

At bottom, this fantasy masks fear. Republicans’ refusal to let go of the old time religion shows how little work the party has done to craft an agenda equal to America’s current challenges. The party has abandoned problem-solving for brand preservation. If tax cuts aren’t our defining issue, Republican pols ask themselves, what distinguishes us from Democrats? Why should voters choose us?

Maybe the Gang of Six can end the GOP’s war on math, but I’m skeptical. For now, if it’s a choice between defying math and staring into this policy and political abyss, Republicans choose defiance.
 
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a777pilot

Diamond Member
Apr 26, 2011
4,261
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You are not arguing math. You are arguing policy and politics.

I am not nor have I ever been for a Constitutional amendment to balance the federal budget or for that matter of any type...other than one to repeal the 22d Amendment (different thread).

Just because the current Fool, Bobo, the Post Turtle, and his lap dogs have greatly increase government spending does not mean that it has to remain at these levels.

I see no reason what so ever not to cut at a minimum one trillion dollars from the possible FY 2012 budget and keep that as the Standard Budget for further cuts in the out years.

Anyway, it would be a start to getting spending under control.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
It's kind of bad when politicians run on popular bad ideas they know won't pass, to get elected and enact unpopular bad ideas they avoid talking about in the campaign.

For Republicans, these are issues like 'abortion' and a balanced budget amendment and madeup issues like the 'War on Christmas'.

For Democracts when they do it, it can include exaggerating Republicans' love of war, eliminating nuclear weapons, and we have to add to the list, 'hope and change'.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
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The issue here is much more complex than the "progressive" view of redistribute, redistribute, redistribute, send money to the poor.

You have to compete with other countries to keep business centered in this country. You have to appease the credit rating agencies to keep the high credit ratings. You have to convince everyone that massive inflation is not in the future. Have to convince creditors that you are capable of repaying debt.

I don't see any of those factors in the ideological opinion. No, it's all "I'm a progressive and I love entitlements." It's focus is on only one single aspect of a highly complex issue. This "opinion" is worthless.

For all the criticisms of various Republican plans, I've yet to see ANY Democratic / "progressive" plan that I have any confidence in either.

So...
 

the DRIZZLE

Platinum Member
Sep 6, 2007
2,956
1
81
The piece conveniently ignores the fact that defense spending as a percent of GDP fell almost 2% from the Reagan era to 2008. That blows up the silly 10-20% less than Reagan claim. Whoever wrote this is a joke.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
The issue here is much more complex than the "progressive" view of redistribute, redistribute, redistribute, send money to the poor.

You have to compete with other countries to keep business centered in this country. You have to appease the credit rating agencies to keep the high credit ratings. You have to convince everyone that massive inflation is not in the future. Have to convince creditors that you are capable of repaying debt.

I don't see any of those factors in the ideological opinion. No, it's all "I'm a progressive and I love entitlements." It's focus is on only one single aspect of a highly complex issue. This "opinion" is worthless.

For all the criticisms of various Republican plans, I've yet to see ANY Democratic / "progressive" plan that I have any confidence in either.

So...

That says more about you than about the Progressive Budget, which balances the budget faster than the disastrous 'Ryan budget' and protects social programs.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,336
11
0
The last time the total outlays as a percentage of GDP was under 18% of GDP was 1966.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
81
Ideological opinions are news items now?

This isn't an opinion. It's fact:

Healthcare costs have been growing at a rate much greater than the economy. So has the number of American's living 10 or more years beyond the Social Security retirement age. Both of these phenomena mean that an ever greater fraction of America's GDP - and of the government's yearly budget - must be devoted to paying for Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security.

To put this another way, if funding for all Federal programs other than Medicare, Medicaid, and SS were kept at the 1983 level of 22% of GDP - plus inflation - then the only way that a federal budget of 19.9% of GDP would be possible in 2011 and beyond would be if healthcare and SS expenditures went DOWN by 2.1% in real terms since 1983. But we know that these two areas have in fact grown much FASTER than the rate of inflation. And remember, Republicans want an 18% rate of growth in the out years. That's why Republican math is BS.
 
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shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
81
The piece conveniently ignores the fact that defense spending as a percent of GDP fell almost 2% from the Reagan era to 2008. That blows up the silly 10-20% less than Reagan claim. Whoever wrote this is a joke.

You're suffering from a failure at reading comprehension. The author is stating that in order to achieve a federal budget of 19.9% in the face of the exponential growth in the costs of heath and SS, it will be necessary to cut all other ares of the federal budget by 10 to 20%.
 

the DRIZZLE

Platinum Member
Sep 6, 2007
2,956
1
81
You're suffering from a failure at reading comprehension. The author is stating that in order to achieve a federal budget of 19.9% in the face of the exponential growth in the costs of heath and SS, it will be necessary to cut all other ares of the federal budget by 10 to 20%.

The author is stating that the Republican's plan is unreasonable because it would require a 10-20% reduction in Federal spending from Reagan era levels. His argument is that we can't possibly do better than Reagan baseline levels because of the demographic changes. It's just not true. We have already knocked 10% off the Reagan baseline from lower defense spending. As the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan wind down we should be able to cut it down to 3% of GDP, which would represent roughly a 7.5% cut in Federal spending.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Here is some more math...

Highest revenue since the end of WW 2 occurred with Clinton's tax rates at the height of the dot.com bubble and still barely exceeded 20%

Current spending is nearly 25% of GDP


Do the math on that and get back to me...
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
Here is some more math...

Highest revenue since the end of WW 2 occurred with Clinton's tax rates at the height of the dot.com bubble and still barely exceeded 20%

Current spending is nearly 25% of GDP


Do the math on that and get back to me...

Except none of what you just wrote is true so your math blows, troll-tard.
 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,270
103
106
I don't see much math in that junk article, just political ideology pretending to be fact. Sure, you have to factor in the aging population and all that, but there's absolutely nothing that mathematically prevents you from reaching 19.9% of GDP. It just involves hard choices (politically) and changes to the sacred cows of defense, SS and medicare/medicaid. Those are political / policy issues, there's no "math" issues involved.

Terrible article.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
It's not anyone politician flunks at anything...it's what they get the people (who generally can't even do basic algebra, think abstractly, etc) to believe.
 

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
8,645
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www.facebook.com
I can think of a lot of Amendments that would go toward balancing the budget, but the two popular proposals sure as hell won't.

Currently, the best way to balance the budget is to repudiate the Federal debt. That will balance both private and public budgets, because then people would be looking at it in terms of how much interest they're paying (either individually or as a taxpayer), rather than debt.

They need to bring the Federal budget to <= $2T.
See the following:
http://www.jrhummel.com/articles/Government_Debt_Repudiation.pdf
 
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IBMer

Golden Member
Jul 7, 2000
1,137
0
76
I don't see much math in that junk article, just political ideology pretending to be fact. Sure, you have to factor in the aging population and all that, but there's absolutely nothing that mathematically prevents you from reaching 19.9% of GDP. It just involves hard choices (politically) and changes to the sacred cows of defense, SS and medicare/medicaid. Those are political / policy issues, there's no "math" issues involved.

Terrible article.

But thats the point. Nobody is going to change SS/Medicare/Medicaid for the current baby boomers that are retiring soon. Even the Republican plans are changing it for future generations which will not resolve the issue at hand that we are already seeing or will soon be seeing a large population of retired seniors that will receive these benefits.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
I'll try to post a reply once I finish laughing (which probably won't happen today) at Matt Miller, a Senior Fellow at the Center for American Progress, being termed a "conservative columnist". Perhaps you meant to call him a "fifth columnist" instead, which would be much more accurate. Miller's politics are somewhat to the left of Hugo Chavez.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
If you look at a pie chart Medicair is about twice the cost of SS. Link SS with Medicair and that is about half of the budget or so. It is estimated that if put Medicair, SS, and all of the Military Spending together that that is about 85&#37; of the budget. I think all 3 cold be cut. There are a lot of people on SS who are just drug addicts and mental patients, and low-life alcoholics. We need to trim off all the free-loaders.
 

D-Man

Platinum Member
Oct 18, 1999
2,991
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71
More than 58 million retirees and disabled Americans will get no increase in Social Security benefits next year, the second year in a row without a raise.
I think SS indirectly got a cut.
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
An opinion piece from a conservative columnist at the Washington Post.

I'll try to post a reply once I finish laughing (which probably won't happen today) at Matt Miller, a Senior Fellow at the Center for American Progress, being termed a "conservative columnist". Perhaps you meant to call him a "fifth columnist" instead, which would be much more accurate. Miller's politics are somewhat to the left of Hugo Chavez.

Maybe he meant "An opinion piece from the most conservative columnist at the Center for America Progress"? It's is pretty funny though, conservative lol.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,402
8,574
126
Conservatives are in denial: They claim that limiting the federal budget to 19.9&#37; of GDP - decreasing over time to 18% of GDP - will solve all our fiscal problems. Turns out they're not even close to being correct.

An opinion piece from a conservative columnist at the Washington Post.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-gops-fuzzy-math/2011/07/20/gIQANu3hPI_story_1.html

A senior fellow at the Center for American Progress
i doubt he's a conservative columnist


edit: i see this has been pointed out


edit2:
But thats the point. Nobody is going to change SS/Medicare/Medicaid for the current baby boomers that are retiring soon. Even the Republican plans are changing it for future generations which will not resolve the issue at hand that we are already seeing or will soon be seeing a large population of retired seniors that will receive these benefits.
would obama's proposed switch to chain-weighted CPI have gone into effect years from now?
 
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DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
Their math could work perfectly with death panels.

When the boomer seniors need medical care, just euthanize them. That solves both the Medicare and Social Security crises in one fell swoop.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Except none of what you just wrote is true so your math blows, troll-tard.
It is all true and provable.

Here is the link to prove it.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2012/assets/hist.pdf

Page 25:
FY 2000 receipts as percentage of GDP = 20.6%
The second highest level in the HISTORY of our country. And only the third time in our history we exceeded 20% and the first two were during WW 2.

FY 2011 estimated spending = 25.3% of GDP


So if we raised our revenue to its highest level in history we would still have a huge deficit.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
So are you suggesting that the government should spend 22&#37; or more of GDP even though your very article states the average income is 18-19% (never sustaining 20% for even a few years) of GDP?

Ever heard of the law of exponents? Its 5th grade math.