Replace Trickle Down with Middle Class up

[JSt0rm]

 

[trenchfoot]

Standard of living MUST go down. The current American lifestyle is not sustainable. Even your Obama said it, that we can't keep running our air conditioners and using all of the world's resources.

You're advocating economic isolationism. You realize that's a failed concept, right?

So what we're looking for then is a "balance in trade" wherein the American middle class gets back the share that it used to have but got taken away via redistribution to the top 1%?

 

[BoberFett]

Tell that to Trump and every billionaire.

Yet another sucker who believes if only it weren't for those damn billionaires, then every American would be eating caviar and driving Rolls Royces.

Billionaires don't consume resources (because that's what we're talking about here is consumption) at a rate anywhere near their share of income or wealth. Every billionaire in the world could sell half the automobiles they own and nobody would notice. A piss ocean. If every middle class American owned half as many cars as they do, the economic affect would be staggering.

Do you understand how numbers work?

 

[JSt0rm]

Yet another sucker who believes if only it weren't for those damn billionaires, then every American would be eating caviar and driving Rolls Royces.

Billionaires don't consume resources (because that's what we're talking about here is consumption) at a rate anywhere near their share of income or wealth. Every billionaire in the world could sell half the automobiles they own and nobody would notice. A piss ocean. If every middle class American owned half as many cars as they do, the economic affect would be staggering.

Do you understand how numbers work?

This is all jibberish and has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

 

[glenn1]

Standard of living has less to do with how much resources we consume and more to do with what services and opportunities are available to americans.

Not everyone gets to live the dream but they should all have the opportunity.

Moving towards using less fossil fuels and less plastics would be a great thing.

Im not advocating economic isolation. Im advocating a even playing field. We should do business with other first world open countries and the rest of the world can strive to become that. Instead we pollute some 3rd world shit hole and use slave labor and say its a good thing. Fuck that. Its not.

This is what someone looks like who is intellectually flailing about because they understand what they don't like (mean ol' rich people) but have no coherent idea of what they do want. It's a unrelated grab bag of personal preferences dressed up as an economic policy, a bunch of nonsense words strung together that doesn't even make sense. For example, WTF does it even mean to "have an opportunity" and how is that different than things are now?

 

[TheGardener]

There is no such thing as "middle class up". It should be called push everyone down! That's what is happening. The middle class has been losing ground for the last 30 years. That most people left or right will agree with. Where we part is on why. My observation is this. Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, skip over 8 years of greatness, Bush, Clinton, Bush and Obama. They have been pushing the middle class down.

So what is the left's REAL agenda? Total equality. How do you achieve this in the REAL? They know that gravity prevents you from pushing people up, so push everyone one down. Then as always, blame the rich, blame the conservatives, because no one is getting ahead. But that is the point of total equality. Everyone lives in the same squalor, everyone worries about nightly neighborhood shootings, everyone takes a bus... no cars, everyone gets the same wage with no rewards for initiative and merit or gets to be on the public dole getting the same as those who work, all kids get to go to lousy schools where education is talked about on soapboxes, but never occurs, and medical care is provided by unqualified doctors and nurses and real care is not available.... where malaise and hope are the words of the day. People have opportunity with "trickle down". But in the world of total equality, opportunity is a word synonymous with [add your *ism here].

 

[Blackjack200]

Exactly. The reason companies don't invest here is because it's a nightmare of red tape and bullshit.

If everything changed, why does a large a CRT television weigh 100+ pounds? Do they fill the thing with rocks? I think it's more reasonable to assume it weighs 100 pounds because it's full of copper, iron, and glass.

Really? Companies don't invest here? Tech companies don't invest here? Bio-tech and pharmaceutical firms don't invest here? Manufacturing doesn't invest here? Entertainment industry doesn't invest here? Aerospace doesn't invest here? Is that what you're saying?

Standard of living MUST go down. The current American lifestyle is not sustainable. Even your Obama said it, that we can't keep running our air conditioners and using all of the world's resources.

Really? Standard of living must go down? So we're at the limits of our productive capacity? Even though we only have 62% labor force participation? Even though energy and commodity prices have crashed? How exactly did you arrive at that conclusion?

 

[BoberFett]

This is all jibberish and has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

The idiot I was responding too indicated that he believed that the wealthy should see a diminished lifestyle at the same rate as the average American. I'm sorry if you're too slow to understand why that isn't true.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Lot's of people rambling on clearly without having watched the doc. If you can't spend 90 minutes with your head outside your bubble at least take 20 to watch the TED talk from the "job creator" I linked to.

Edit: Or read one of his his articles here:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/making-sense/middle-class-cant-get-ahead/

 

[BoberFett]

Really? Standard of living must go down? So we're at the limits of our productive capacity? Even though we only have 62% labor force participation? Even though energy and commodity prices have crashed? How exactly did you arrive at that conclusion?

So then you believe that US consumption can realistically go up? And continue increasing forever?

I'm getting ahead of myself, let me back up...

You do realize that UP is the opposite of DOWN, yes?

 

[TheGardener]

Lot's of people rambling on clearly without having watched the doc. If you can't spend 90 minutes with your head outside your bubble at least take 20 to watch the TED talk from the "job creator" I linked to.

I'm not going to spend 90 minutes of my life watching Robert Reich. I've heard him talk in the past, and I know what is in the water he is carrying. Btw, I'm not the one living in a bubble. But when the bubble comes, swimming to Cuba will seem like a plausible option.

 

[Blackjack200]

So then you believe that US consumption can realistically go up? And continue increasing forever?

I'm getting ahead of myself, let me back up...

You do realize that UP is the opposite of DOWN, yes?

Of course it can go up. Why the fuck couldn't it go up? Inflation has been near zero for years. Do you understand what that means? It means the money supply is too low for demand to drive prices up.

Aggregate demand should absolutely increase indefinitely unless the population stops growing or you get price deflation, which would be disasterous.

 

[glenn1]

Lot's of people rambling on clearly without having watched the doc. If you can't spend 90 minutes with your head outside your bubble at least take 20 to watch the TED talk from the "job creator" I linked to.

Edit: Or read one of his his articles here:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/making-sense/middle-class-cant-get-ahead/

I did and it sucked. It also lacked any true policy recommendations, which makes sense because as soon as the inequality warriors start mentioning their solutions the middle class voters they're seeking to "help" realize how crazy their ideas are and how much they'd hurt that same middle class. Only someone who has lost touch with middle class reality could say with a straight face "we should adopt policies which make boots cost $500/pair (and every other consumer product will increase hugely in price too) but it will be so worth it because some other person will get a job, and your great-grandkids can inherit the boots and wear them someday."

 

[JSt0rm]

This is what someone looks like who is intellectually flailing about because they understand what they don't like (mean ol' rich people) but have no coherent idea of what they do want. It's a unrelated grab bag of personal preferences dressed up as an economic policy, a bunch of nonsense words strung together that doesn't even make sense. For example, WTF does it even mean to "have an opportunity" and how is that different than things are now?

What? Im not creating economic policy. Im discussing the diminishing middle class on a tech forum.

So far in response we have

1. tvs were expensive in the 50's therfore...

2. if rich people sold all their cars nobody would even feel it.

3. Them pants are too expensive. Its like 15.

4. We need 0% taxes so companies want to bring their jobs here. Oh and lets get rid of the epa, minimum wage and child labor laws as well.

excuse me for have a discussion about something without 20 years of education on the topic.

 

[Blackjack200]

We need 0% taxes so companies want to bring their jobs here. Oh and lets get rid of the epa, minimum wage and child labor laws as well.

Corporate taxes should be 0, but dividends and capital gains should be taxed as ordinary income, and the top marginal rates should be a little higher.

 

[realibrad]

What? Im not creating economic policy. Im discussing the diminishing middle class on a tech forum.

So far in response we have

1. tvs were expensive in the 50's therfore...

2. if rich people sold all their cars nobody would even feel it.

3. Them pants are too expensive. Its like 15.

4. We need 0% taxes so companies want to bring their jobs here. Oh and lets get rid of the epa, minimum wage and child labor laws as well.

excuse me for have a discussion about something without 20 years of education on the topic.

So how should a poor person pay for the shoes you feel should be made? Are you just suggesting to pay everyone more to afford the things you feel they should be buying?

 

[MagickMan]

Standard of living has less to do with how much resources we consume and more to do with what services and opportunities are available to americans.

Not everyone gets to live the dream but they should all have the opportunity.

Then the #1 focus should be to educate Americans to stop buying things with debt.

 

[BoberFett]

Of course it can go up. Why the fuck couldn't it go up? Inflation has been near zero for years. Do you understand what that means? It means the money supply is too low for demand to drive prices up.

Aggregate demand should absolutely increase indefinitely unless the population stops growing or you get price deflation, which would be disasterous.

/facepalm

So as long as we keep printing more money, the planet will keep creating new oil and rare earth metals?

 

[Blackjack200]

/facepalm

So as long as we keep printing more money, the planet will keep creating new oil and rare earth metals?

No, but we will dig more of them out of the ground? Holy fuck, are you not aware that we've stopped drilling for oil in Texas and ND because the prices cratered? Is that a supply problem or a demand problem? Jesus, this story came out today. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/29/b...h-shell-alaska-oil-exploration-halt.html?_r=0

 

[BoberFett]

What? Im not creating economic policy. Im discussing the diminishing middle class on a tech forum.

So far in response we have

1. tvs were expensive in the 50's therfore...

2. if rich people sold all their cars nobody would even feel it.

3. Them pants are too expensive. Its like 15.

4. We need 0% taxes so companies want to bring their jobs here. Oh and lets get rid of the epa, minimum wage and child labor laws as well.

excuse me for have a discussion about something without 20 years of education on the topic.

You and the idiot blackjack realize that money is an abstract concept, right?

The treasury could print $100 Quadrillion tomorrow and distribute it evenly to all Americans, and it wouldn't really change how much we consume, right?

 

[JSt0rm]

So how should a poor person pay for the shoes you feel should be made? Are you just suggesting to pay everyone more to afford the things you feel they should be buying?

Im not talking about paying people more.

Trickle down doesnt work. We know that from 30 years of trickle down. So its time to try something else. I cut car chases and gunfights for a living. Im not a economist. The nuts and bolts of it will be whipped together by someone else.

 

[JSt0rm]

You and the idiot blackjack realize that money is an abstract concept, right?

The treasury could print $100 Quadrillion tomorrow and distribute it evenly to all Americans, and it wouldn't really change how much we consume, right?

Who is asking for that?

 

[BoberFett]

No, but we will dig more of them out of the ground? Holy fuck, are you not aware that we've stopped drilling for oil in Texas and ND because the prices cratered? Is that a supply problem or a demand problem? Jesus, this story came out today. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/29/b...h-shell-alaska-oil-exploration-halt.html?_r=0

LOL, it's so funny to see the left backtracking on the whole peak oil thing. If only we had printed more money, the oil would just appear!

 

[Blackjack200]

You and the idiot blackjack realize that money is an abstract concept, right?

The treasury could print $100 Quadrillion tomorrow and distribute it evenly to all Americans, and it wouldn't really change how much we consume, right?

Holy shit, you don't think the money supply affects consumption? LOL!!

Tell the fed, they can all just go home, none of what they do matters!

 

[BoberFett]

Who is asking for that?

Every dumbass in this thread who thinks that we could consume more goods if only if it weren't for the rich and the rest of the world stealing our birthright to stuff.