Removing powersteering pump belt-->cause damage to rack? Yea or Nay?

[fleabag]

I know of people who convert their Power steering racks to Non Power steering by removing the pump and looping over the lines and whatnot back onto itself. (There is more to it than this but what ever)... So anyway I have no real opinion on this and for the sake of hearing what the majority has to say on this, I'm going to have a poll..

The question is, will simply the removal of the power steering belt and not making any other modifications to the steering system have an adverse effect on the power steering rack or not. Adverse meaning, will it damage it or not.

The difference that I am aware of between a Non Power Steering rack and Power steering rack on a same model of car is the ratio of turns and it not having the valves and whatnot in order to assist in steering.

 

[exdeath]

Shouldn't damage anything as long as you keep enough fluid in the rack to lubricate it, but your steering is going to be much harder than a plain manual rack. You'll have to push and balance fluid on both sides of the rack through small holes and back and forth through the valve with the force of the steering wheel alone; it has to go somewhere when you force the rack left or right since it can't compress.

Since the valve would be the highest point left in the system after removing the pump, and fluid would leak out when you remove the hoses, it would be difficult to be sure the valve isn't running dry unless you deliberately placed your loopback hose in such a way that you could top it before sealing it.

Dry, yes it will ruin it. There are lots of seals and teflon rings that rely on the fluid for lubrication.

Is this another idea to get .5 more mpg on a car that already gets 30+ ? Auto manufacturers are already going over to "on demand" electric power steering that only runs the pump when needed instead of all the time.

 

[fleabag]

Shouldn't damage anything as long as you keep enough fluid in the rack to lubricate it, but your steering is going to be much harder than a plain manual rack. You'll have to push and balance fluid on both sides of the rack through small holes and back and forth through the valve with the force of the steering wheel alone; it has to go somewhere when you force the rack left or right since it can't compress.

Dry, yes it will ruin it. There are lots of seals and teflon rings that rely on the fluid for lubrication.

Is this another idea to get .5 more mpg on a car that already gets 30+ ? Auto manufacturers are already going over to "on demand" electric power steering that only runs then pump when needed instead of all the time.

Hmm, its suppose to improve fuel consumption at idle which is a bit high for my liking.. I don't know what kind of gains to expect so I'll do a test some time in the future. I find the steering wheel to be pretty easy to turn with one hand despite the engine being off & the car being stationary which gave me the idea to, at the very least remove the PS belt.

They have non power steering racks for this car but if nothing is damaged by me doing this and it's already pretty easy to turn the wheel while stationary and the engine not running, then I think I could live with it quite easily. It's a lot of work to switch racks and so I'd only do that if I knew doing this could mean damaging this one or because it's too difficult to turn the wheel with the engine off. I asked my friend to turn the wheel with the engine off and he agreed that it felt pretty light as it is.. One of the many benefits to inflating to sidewall and having a lightweight car.

 

[allanon1965]

this is one of the most fool hardy things I have heard of in a long time.

true manual racks have different gear ratios to make steering the car fairly easy, also helps tremendously on keeping control of the car on rough roads, the caster angles on manual steering cars also are sometimes different than their power steering brothers....this also aids in handling and control on the road when encountering rough pavement, potholes, etc.

when you take a powersteering rack and stop the power assist, now you have no dampening of the road forces by the hydraulic system and run the risk of loss of control in a sudden encounter with a large pothole or similar road hazzard...

leave the belt on and dont worry about the measily 1% of fuel you will save on the tank of gas...you would save more gas by making sure you dont over accelerate from stops, keeping to the speed limits and taking excess baggage out of the car, especially extra crap in the trunk, and making sure your tires are inflated to the MANUFACTURERS specified inflation pressure.

The sidewall pressure is only there for a car that is at MAXIMUM LOAD! period! so unless you are at the max weight of the car, there is absolutley no need to go to the sidewall for the tire pressure...doing this over time will cause the center of the tire to wear more quickly than the outside edges. That sidewall pressure is only intended to be kept until the car is unloaded or the excess weight is removed...kinda like when you go on vacation and your all loaded down...when you get home, and unload, decrease the pressure back to manufacturers specs.

contrary to popular belief, car makers do test more than one tire on thier vehicles....the ones it comes with were the ones who bid the cheapest to get the supply contract...

one more thing, by not having the power assist, you are causing more stress to the input shaft of the rack and pinion...no assist makes it work much harder to turn and over time this will lead to damage in the bearings especially, as they now are now subjected to more sideload than originally designed, the fluid is pushing the piston in the rack to help the pinion shaft turn the gear and rack, take the assist away and you have more sideload on the bearings and teeth...

 

[SpatiallyAware]

wtf

Do not do this. Not worth the fuel economy, and as others said - running the rack dry will f it up.


I pray this becomes epic. Or are we not allowed to rag on good ole fb anymore?

 

[fleabag]

this is one of the most fool hardy things I have heard of in a long time.

true manual racks have different gear ratios to make steering the car fairly easy, also helps tremendously on keeping control of the car on rough roads, the caster angles on manual steering cars also are sometimes different than their power steering brothers....this also aids in handling and control on the road when encountering rough pavement, potholes, etc.

when you take a powersteering rack and stop the power assist, now you have no dampening of the road forces by the hydraulic system and run the risk of loss of control in a sudden encounter with a large pothole or similar road hazzard...

leave the belt on and dont worry about the measily 1% of fuel you will save on the tank of gas...you would save more gas by making sure you dont over accelerate from stops, keeping to the speed limits and taking excess baggage out of the car, especially extra crap in the trunk, and making sure your tires are inflated to the MANUFACTURERS specified inflation pressure.

The sidewall pressure is only there for a car that is at MAXIMUM LOAD! period! so unless you are at the max weight of the car, there is absolutley no need to go to the sidewall for the tire pressure...doing this over time will cause the center of the tire to wear more quickly than the outside edges. That sidewall pressure is only intended to be kept until the car is unloaded or the excess weight is removed...kinda like when you go on vacation and your all loaded down...when you get home, and unload, decrease the pressure back to manufacturers specs.

contrary to popular belief, car makers do test more than one tire on thier vehicles....the ones it comes with were the ones who bid the cheapest to get the supply contract...

one more thing, by not having the power assist, you are causing more stress to the input shaft of the rack and pinion...no assist makes it work much harder to turn and over time this will lead to damage in the bearings especially, as they now are now subjected to more sideload than originally designed, the fluid is pushing the piston in the rack to help the pinion shaft turn the gear and rack, take the assist away and you have more sideload on the bearings and teeth...

hehehe you're so funny... you're not GUARANTEED to have wear down the center of a tire by inflating to sidewall. In fact, in a lot of cars, I've found the tire wear to be more even after inflating to sidewall as before where it used to wear down the sides.. The only tires I've ever seen get wear down the center (and even then, it isn't the very very center) are the rear tires of an unloaded pickup...but even then those tires aren't inflated to anywhere near sidewall.

I do appreciate though that you distinguished between an unloaded vehicle and a loaded vehicle.. Yes I am aware that the load rating on a tire is only valid at sidewall pressure and that you should add air to a tire when loading a vehicle but there is something else you should know which you may or may not know. Manufacturers have and I just saw it recently in the Honda owner's manual to add 4-5psi to door jamb PSI if you're going to be driving fast.

Finally I'd like to point out that I have never, EVER seen the front tires that are on the vehicle they were intended for, that are inflated to sidewall PSI, wear down the center or even close to that.. The reason being the engine is heavy and since those wheels do all the turning, it's a bit hard for that to happen and it's usually why those are the wheels that wear down the sides first despite being inflated to manufacturer's PSI recommendations.

 

[fleabag]

wtf

Do not do this. Not worth the fuel economy, and as others said - running the rack dry will f it up.


I pray this becomes epic. Or are we not allowed to rag on good ole fb anymore?

Wait wait wait... are you saying that removing the P/S belt is basically running the rack dry?? I wouldn't consider it to be running dry but who knows...

 

[allanon1965]

hehehe you're so funny... you're not GUARANTEED to have wear down the center of a tire by inflating to sidewall. In fact, in a lot of cars, I've found the tire wear to be more even after inflating to sidewall as before where it used to wear down the sides.. The only tires I've ever seen get wear down the center (and even then, it isn't the very very center) are the rear tires of an unloaded pickup...but even then those tires aren't inflated to anywhere near sidewall.

I do appreciate though that you distinguished between an unloaded vehicle and a loaded vehicle.. Yes I am aware that the load rating on a tire is only valid at sidewall pressure and that you should add air to a tire when loading a vehicle but there is something else you should know which you may or may not know. Manufacturers have and I just saw it recently in the Honda owner's manual to add 4-5psi to door jamb PSI if you're going to be driving fast.

Finally I'd like to point out that I have never, EVER seen the front tires that are on the vehicle they were intended for, that are inflated to sidewall PSI, wear down the center or even close to that.. The reason being the engine is heavy and since those wheels do all the turning, it's a bit hard for that to happen and it's usually why those are the wheels that wear down the sides first despite being inflated to manufacturer's PSI recommendations.

I see Thousands of tires each year come thru our shop...how many do you see?
I have been in the auto repair business for 28 years, how long have you been in it?

my point is I have seen it happen over and over...the next time you get a chance...take a tread depth guage(not just a damn penny) and measure the tires inside tread, middle tread and outside tread...now run it at max sidewall pressure for 50,000 miles and measure again...let me know what you find.

driving fast essentially creates more sidewall load on the tire as it turns( like a curve in the road), very similar to what max load would subject a tire to...think about it for a second...when you run high speed and then initiate a turn, the road is, in effect, creating a pulll on the sidewall as the tires resist the friction of the road surface during the turn( they flex alot ). This is magnifyed at high speed and this is why they recommend max pressures for high speed driving..

 

[waffleironhead]

penny wise pound fleabagish

 

[SooperDave]

Somebody got that "aw geez, not this shit again" meme handy?

 

[jlee]

 

[jhu]

The sidewall pressure is only there for a car that is at MAXIMUM LOAD! period! so unless you are at the max weight of the car, there is absolutley no need to go to the sidewall for the tire pressure...doing this over time will cause the center of the tire to wear more quickly than the outside edges. That sidewall pressure is only intended to be kept until the car is unloaded or the excess weight is removed...kinda like when you go on vacation and your all loaded down...when you get home, and unload, decrease the pressure back to manufacturers specs.

You know, people keep saying this, but I'm not seeing it on my car. So far 20K miles on these tires at max sidewall with no abnormal wear characteristics.

 

[fleabag]

I see Thousands of tires each year come thru our shop...how many do you see?
I have been in the auto repair business for 28 years, how long have you been in it?

my point is I have seen it happen over and over...the next time you get a chance...take a tread depth guage(not just a damn penny) and measure the tires inside tread, middle tread and outside tread...now run it at max sidewall pressure for 50,000 miles and measure again...let me know what you find.

driving fast essentially creates more sidewall load on the tire as it turns( like a curve in the road), very similar to what max load would subject a tire to...think about it for a second...when you run high speed and then initiate a turn, the road is, in effect, creating a pulll on the sidewall as the tires resist the friction of the road surface during the turn( they flex alot ). This is magnifyed at high speed and this is why they recommend max pressures for high speed driving..

And a lot of people in my area take turns quickly and consequently they have tires that wear down the sides.. Again, I've never seen tires in my area on the front of a vehicle with MORE wear down the center than down the sides.. Yes you may work in a tire shop but that doesn't mean you've necessarily seen more tires than me. There are these things called parking lots, and it's quite easy to spot the condition that tires are in especially when you are blessed with good eye sight. While you're checking out the walmartians, I'm checking out their tires...

 

[allanon1965]

And a lot of people in my area take turns quickly and consequently they have tires that wear down the sides.. Again, I've never seen tires in my area on the front of a vehicle with MORE wear down the center than down the sides.. Yes you may work in a tire shop but that doesn't mean you've necessarily seen more tires than me. There are these things called parking lots, and it's quite easy to spot the condition that tires are in especially when you are blessed with good eye sight. While you're checking out the walmartians, I'm checking out their tires...

I worked 10 years for goodyear, 3 more at firestone and the rest in dealers and independent shops, I will promise you I have seen more tires than you have, and not from just the parking lot, hands on dismounted tires checking the inside halobutyl liners for heat erosion from overloading and extended high speed driving....and abuse of the tire casings in general, trust me, goodyear didnt send us to training for shits and giggles...

I have been an ASE Certified Master Automotive Technician since 1990 and I have spent 28 years fixing cars and diagnosing failure of parts and tires, so I have seen alot of things normal car geeks will never see...maybe your area is different from mine, but from what I have experienced, I have seen it happen over and over...if you dont rotate your tires every 6,000 miles....you will see heavy wear on outside shoulders faster than the center, but I dont see it in my area when we have customers coming in for scheduled maintenance, we have soome who insist on the sidewall pressure and they usually have about a 1/32 difference on the tread in the center after 50,000 miles...the center being 1/32 less than the outsides...

I am done with this issue, I know what I see in my experience here from years of measured and verifiable study....

 

[fleabag]

..if you dont rotate your tires every 6,000 miles....you will see heavy wear on outside shoulders faster than the center, but I dont see it in my area when we have customers coming in for scheduled maintenance, we have soome who insist on the sidewall pressure and they usually have about a 1/32 difference on the tread in the center after 50,000 miles...the center being 1/32 less than the outsides...

I am done with this issue, I know what I see in my experience here from years of measured and verifiable study....

Oh that's the thing though, what if you DON'T rotate your tires? Since you're the expert, on a properly aligned non sporty FWD vehicle, if the wheels aren't rotated, how will they wear on the rear wheels? These tires are inflated to the manufacturer's recommendation..

I'm aware of the suggestion to rotate your tires but I haven't given it too much thought as to why I find myself doing it. Maybe the reason why is so that they can continue to keep the tires at a lower inflation level since doing that will cause wear down the sides, they have you rotate them so the wear is more mixed.. Maybe if tires were inflated to a higher pressure in the front, you wouldn't see wear down the sides which would explain why I no longer see the uneven wear like I used to.

But even with the above in mind, if the tires are rotated like they're supposed to, even though you say otherwise, I still have found rotated tires wear faster down the sides, except that you now see it on all four tires. My mom's LS430 as a perfect example of this.. I just ordered some tires for her car and so when I replace the tires, I be sure to take pictures and show you what I'm talking about when I say more wear down the sides.. (You'll see it on all four tires)

 

[Meghan54]

I worked 10 years for goodyear, 3 more at firestone and the rest in dealers and independent shops, I will promise you I have seen more tires than you have, and not from just the parking lot, hands on dismounted tires checking the inside halobutyl liners for heat erosion from overloading and extended high speed driving....and abuse of the tire casings in general, trust me, goodyear didnt send us to training for shits and giggles...

I have been an ASE Certified Master Automotive Technician since 1990 and I have spent 28 years fixing cars and diagnosing failure of parts and tires, so I have seen alot of things normal car geeks will never see...maybe your area is different from mine, but from what I have experienced, I have seen it happen over and over...if you dont rotate your tires every 6,000 miles....you will see heavy wear on outside shoulders faster than the center, but I dont see it in my area when we have customers coming in for scheduled maintenance, we have soome who insist on the sidewall pressure and they usually have about a 1/32 difference on the tread in the center after 50,000 miles...the center being 1/32 less than the outsides...

I am done with this issue, I know what I see in my experience here from years of measured and verifiable study....

Dude, you can have all the experience in the world, but in fleabag's alternate reality, what he reads on someone's blog or what he "learns" when talking to the other high school kids in the john overrides anyone's real world training and experiences. Everyone knows that!

 

[allanon1965]

Dude, you can have all the experience in the world, but in fleabag's alternate reality, what he reads on someone's blog or what he "learns" when talking to the other high school kids in the john overrides anyone's real world training and experiences. Everyone knows that!

I am seeing that...point taken...(tires not rotated that stay on the rear of a FWD wehicle will chop and have diagonal wear patterns)

I'm outta here!

 

[Capt Caveman]

I worked 10 years for goodyear, 3 more at firestone and the rest in dealers and independent shops, I will promise you I have seen more tires than you have, and not from just the parking lot, hands on dismounted tires checking the inside halobutyl liners for heat erosion from overloading and extended high speed driving....and abuse of the tire casings in general, trust me, goodyear didnt send us to training for shits and giggles...

I have been an ASE Certified Master Automotive Technician since 1990 and I have spent 28 years fixing cars and diagnosing failure of parts and tires, so I have seen alot of things normal car geeks will never see...maybe your area is different from mine, but from what I have experienced, I have seen it happen over and over...if you dont rotate your tires every 6,000 miles....you will see heavy wear on outside shoulders faster than the center, but I dont see it in my area when we have customers coming in for scheduled maintenance, we have soome who insist on the sidewall pressure and they usually have about a 1/32 difference on the tread in the center after 50,000 miles...the center being 1/32 less than the outsides...

I am done with this issue, I know what I see in my experience here from years of measured and verifiable study....

You're talking to a 16 year old kid who thinks spraying vinegar/water mix on the windshields will prevent icing and won't go to the gym til his civic can get 50 mpg.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Fuck all these haters, I say go for it! And be sure to let us know how that works out for you...I, for one, cannot wait!

 

[Fenixgoon]

You're talking to a 16 year old kid who thinks spraying vinegar/water mix on the windshields will prevent icing and won't go to the gym til his civic can get 50 mpg.

don't forget he wanted to do a transmission swap

 

[grrl]

Yes you may work in a tire shop but that doesn't mean you've necessarily seen more tires than me.

Yep, 28 years of work experience is nothing compared to 16 years of life as fleabag.

fleabag, the gift that keeps on giving.

 

[Meghan54]

Yep, 28 years of work experience is nothing compared to 16 years of life as fleabag.

fleabag, the gift that keeps on giving.

So true. I wonder how insufferable he is in other aspects of life? Meh, he's probably just as bad. His attitude towards everyone else sort of makes you wonder how much he has to pay others to hang out with him.....or if he really has any acquaintances at all (surely he doesn't have any true friends....who could put up with his "I know everything about anything" attitude.)

 

[fleabag]

I am seeing that...point taken...(tires not rotated that stay on the rear of a FWD wehicle will chop and have diagonal wear patterns)

I'm outta here!

http://www.accidentreconstruction.com/research/tires/tirewear.asp

Fine but how about you explain to me why I see this:
"Worn Outer Edges:
This type of tire wear can be found on a visual inspection where the outer edges of the tire are worn smoothly. This is typically caused by low air pressure."
on cars with rotated tires that are inflated to doorjamb pressure? That would indicate to me under-inflated tires..

Fuck all these haters, I say go for it! And be sure to let us know how that works out for you...I, for one, cannot wait!

In the short term I know it won't be an issue which is why I'm asking. There are people who already do this but they don't exactly have a car's lifetime worth of testing this idea out. I mean they've probably done it for maybe 2-3 years and seem to be trouble free.

 

[CurseTheSky]

You'd get better fuel mileage by stripping out all non-essential interior parts. Creature comforts, if you will.

Back seat, passenger seat, radio, air conditioning, carpet, sound deadening, console, trim, accessories, etc.

If the car has a spoiler or exhaust tip, take that off as well.

I'm not kidding. The weight reduction would be far more beneficial if your true goal is to get the best mileage that you can.

 

[sdifox]