Remembering Sabra and Shatila

[cumhail]

Ummm... yeah. Hence the word "indirectly."

 

[Doboji]

Ummm... yeah. Hence the word "indirectly."

Right... So were you saying that the commission was biased... so that the "indirect" ruling was in Israel's favor? Or were you saying that the commission was biased sarcastically?

 

[Infohawk]

This is a common tactic used by anti-semites to attack Jews for remembering the Holocaust by using the term wherever possible to de-associate it with the systematic slaughter of 12 million innocent people in europe by the German Nazis.

Yep. Holocaust isn't just a synonym for a slaughter.

 

[iGas]

The problems may be that the Palestinian and Lebonese people have chosen a path that has turned out badly for them.

And when confonted about it; they refuse to change direction but blame others for their mistakes.

The Palestinians have recieved plenty of money from all over the world to help them; yet they have not utilized it effeciently to improve their lot.

Lebanon has been torn apart by wars; some of their own making; others that they left the door open for.

Absolutely true, however it take more than just money to develop a society.

Have the Israelis stop stealing Palestinian land and give them their fair share of water right (water well/aquifer water rights)?
The Palestinian should be include in talks regarding the Jordan river water rights, because presently they don't have a voice or very small saying in the mater where everyone upstream are dumping waste and farming chemical runoff into it.

IMHO, it is very difficult to improve your life when you don't have water and your land are been taken away from you.

[add]
Also, splitting a country into 2 come with a host of trouble ie. the former Germanies & Vietnam, and presently the Koreas. What you have in Israel and Palestine is a unique situation where the people is split and completely separate into 2~3 damned entities within "the occupied territories", and the problem will not go away unless the Jews and Arabs/Muslims are willing to absorb each other culture. Or, the Jews completely wipe out the Palestinian Arabs as the wish of the right wingnut Zionist, and the other option is that the American pull out the support for the Jewish state and let the Arabs wipe out the Jews (that will only happens if the Jews somehow lost all of its influent in America, such as the media and political system, and American befriend all Arab countries).

 

[SandEagle]

bump for the remembrance of Sabra and Shatila as no one cares to report about it. as you can see, nothing has changed in the last two years. i expect the same responses from all of the same users.

 

[shira]

what's anti-israel about this thread?

Please tell us your unfiltered opinion about what you think of Israel and what would be your ideal solution to the Palestinian problem?

 

[SandEagle]

Please tell us your unfiltered opinion about what you think of Israel and what would be your ideal solution to the Palestinian problem?

two state solution, equal in land and military might, with defined borders and a 20 mile high wall between the two.

 

[EXman]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Lebanon

Keeping everything in perspective.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Should we view this as a day when...

1. Arabs slaughtered 800+ Palestinians including innocent civillians?

2. Christians slaughtered 800+ Palestinians including innocent civillians?

3. Israel failed to stop the slaughter of 800+ Palestinians including innocent civillians?

I know I know you will pick option 3... because the facts are really not important... and it's the damn Zionists who are evil.

edit: Just one question though... where is the thread to remember "Black September" ... you know when the Jordanians began the slaughter of 50,000 Palestinians... I believe that started on September 16th too. I guess we should only remember "Holocausts" that the Jews were associated with.

Arab on Arab violence does not count. Even though more are killed that way than most others.

 

[EagleKeeper]

two state solution, equal in land and military might, with defined borders and a 20 mile high wall between the two.

Such existed without the wall.

One side got greedy though.

How many other times was using the military might attempted, to re-equalize the situation.


you apparently believe that 15 vs 1 is a fair fight only when you have the 15.

 

[SandEagle]

Such existed without the wall.

One side got greedy though.

How many other times was using the military might attempted, to re-equalize the situation.


you apparently believe that 15 vs 1 is a fair fight only when you have the 15.

and you apparently believe that using F-15s, tanks, bulldozers, phosphorous shells, flechette rounds, machine guns, etc against rocks is fair.

 

[randomrogue]

and you apparently believe that using F-15s, tanks, bulldozers, phosphorous shells, flechette rounds, machine guns, etc against rocks is fair.

There was a two state solution. The Palestinians turned it down and declared war on the Jews.

I'm unclear on your motivation with this thread. Although I sympathize with the dead and find such events tragic why would we make a big deal out of 800 dead from 30 years ago? Some Lebanese went in and went ape shit on some Palestinians. They're crazy over there the whole lot of them and dwelling on something from 30 years ago is NOT HEALTHY! These people need to move forward and not dwell on the past.

If you're into the whole massacre subject maybe you should read up on the Partition of India or maybe the Rwandan Genocide since those are far more interesting and on a much larger scale. If you're stuck on the middle east then there are several wars to be read about. They're actually historically significant and not such a minor spate in the whole tragic situation of the middle east.

 

[QuantumPion]

and you apparently believe that using F-15s, tanks, bulldozers, phosphorous shells, flechette rounds, machine guns, etc against rocks is fair.

Well it wasn't very fair when 3 times the arabs invaded Israel 5v1 Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt and Iraq vs Israel.

Seriously though, are you a fucking moron or what? You think it is the duty of the defender to give the attacker a fair chance to kill them? You think it is unfair when a 5' 100 lb woman uses a gun to shoot a 6'4 250 lb rapist?

 

[cybrsage]

This is a common tactic used by anti-semites to attack Jews for remembering the Holocaust by using the term wherever possible to de-associate it with the systematic slaughter of 12 million innocent people in europe by the German Nazis.

6 million, but your point still stands. Roughly one third of the Jews in the world were killed...but roughtly two thirds of the Jews in Europe were killed.

 

[cybrsage]

Sins were committed on all sides. We can either continue the endless cycle of revenge or move forward.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

I remember it well, the ship (USS DuPont DD-941) I was stationed on had just completed the PLO evacuation from Beirut. The ship supposed to be heading to port for a liberty call and was diverted back to the Beirut coast to assist in the return of the US contingent of the multinational peace keeping force.

 

[cybrsage]

and you apparently believe that using F-15s, tanks, bulldozers, phosphorous shells, flechette rounds, machine guns, etc against rocks is fair.

If you are stupid enough to throw a rock at a man with a machine gun, do not be surprised to be shot.

 

[Tom]

So what really happened-did Israel merely fail to stop the massacre (as commonly reported in the Western press and as I vaguely remember it) or did Israel actively participate in the killings by trucking in the killers and dropping flares by helicopters so the killings could continue into the night, as the wiki article linked in the claims.

As a American without any skin in this game I always viewed it as another sad example of Mideast craziness, but my opinion of Israel would be greatly decreased if they actively participated in this massacre (certainly not a holocaust).

I too am old enough to remember this. My recollection of my opinion at the time is that Israel was very much responsible because they set up the camps and therefore were responsible for their safety.

I'm not an enemy of Israel, but at times they behave as a bully, and to the extent they get away with it because we are their best friends, I don't like it.

 

[EagleKeeper]

and you apparently believe that using F-15s, tanks, bulldozers, phosphorous shells, flechette rounds, machine guns, etc against rocks is fair.

One should never start a fight that they are not planning on winning. The Palestians start such fights deliberately to prove sympathy. Case in point.

You poke a tiger with a stick, do not complain if you get clawed.

Blow up a bus and complain that the plotters got vaporized in a retailiation raid. Israel values lives of their people more than the Palestinians. They are not going to do an eye for an eye if a more effective way is available that is less dangerous.

All those weapons could be made available to the helpless Palestinians by their sponsors. Ask why not?

 

[SandEagle]

6 million, but your point still stands. Roughly one third of the Jews in the world were killed...but roughtly two thirds of the Jews in Europe were killed.

the 12 million includes the non-jews that were killed. the holocaust isnt specific to jews only.

 

[randomrogue]

the 12 million includes the non-jews that were killed. the holocaust isnt specific to jews only.

It's not but 6 million were Jews. That's a lot of people from one particular group. If you ever visit Auschwitz they have museums setup in the different barracks representing everyone who was slaughtered there but it's very apparent that the Jews were their primary focus.

 

[amish]

and let's not forget the cause for the beginning of the religious strife in Lebanon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_massacre

another story of "keepin' it real" gone wrong...

 

[werepossum]

Why are we rehashing things that happens many decades ago. Wouldn't it be more effective if the Palestinian and Jews forget about the past killings, and focus on the present of how to live with each other in harmony?

I'm sorry but the Israelis and Palestinians brought the killings/wars onto themselves because they are both acting like rotten children.

If the American people make me President I would take a big whooping stick on both, the Jews/Arabs.

Very well said. I salute you, sir.

Yup, I had never heard of this before..
Horrible stuff



How can I forget what I didn't know before.
And now knowing this, I can understand more about where we are today.

Horrible stuff indeed, but hardly the entire story. This massacre was in response to other Palestinian terrorist attacks which were in response to an Israeli invasion which was in response to Palestinian terrorist attacks which were in response to . . .

I think iGas has the right idea. Both sides will have to give up revenge for peace. Unfortunately it's far more likely we'll have peace when one side or the other is exterminated.

And as Doboji aptly points out, this pales in comparison to the Jordanian massacre - though even that isn't the entire story as the Palestinians attempted a coup in Jordan.

 

[WHAMPOM]

Actively "caring" about something that happened 30 years ago will only lead us in circles over and over again. The sons paying for the sins of their fathers.

So, sandeagle - when will you stop promoting hate and violence, let us forget about the past and think of a better future?

Well there is that all about those who do not learn fron history repeating it.