• Guest, The rules for the P & N subforum have been updated to prohibit "ad hominem" or personal attacks against other posters. See the full details in the post "Politics and News Rules & Guidelines."

Remembering Sabra and Shatila

pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
18,260
2,122
126
Holocaust isn't the right word for this. Just call it a massacre.
Well actually Holocaust does work for this:

Great destruction resulting in the extensive loss of life, especially by fire, any mass slaughter or reckless destruction of life.

Definition of HOLOCAUST
1: a sacrifice consumed by fire

2: a thorough destruction involving extensive loss of life especially through fire <a nuclear holocaust>

3a often capitalized : the mass slaughter of European civilians and especially Jews by the Nazis during World War II —usually used with the b : a mass slaughter of people; especially : genocide
 

iGas

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2009
6,240
1
0
Why are we rehashing things that happens many decades ago. Wouldn't it be more effective if the Palestinian and Jews forget about the past killings, and focus on the present of how to live with each other in harmony?

I'm sorry but the Israelis and Palestinians brought the killings/wars onto themselves because they are both acting like rotten children.

If the American people make me President I would take a big whooping stick on both, the Jews/Arabs.
 

Harabec

Golden Member
Oct 15, 2005
1,371
1
81
Actively "caring" about something that happened 30 years ago will only lead us in circles over and over again. The sons paying for the sins of their fathers.

So, sandeagle - when will you stop promoting hate and violence, let us forget about the past and think of a better future?
 

Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
8,059
55
86
Since no mainstream media will ever report about it and you'll probably never read about it in history books......
:(
Yup, I had never heard of this before..
Horrible stuff

So, sandeagle - when will you stop promoting hate and violence, let us forget about the past and think of a better future?
How can I forget what I didn't know before.
And now knowing this, I can understand more about where we are today.
 

Doboji

Diamond Member
May 18, 2001
7,912
0
76
Since no mainstream media will ever report about it and you'll probably never read about it in history books......

28 years ago to this day, September 16th, a two day holocaust took place that claimed thousands of civilians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre

:(
Should we view this as a day when...

1. Arabs slaughtered 800+ Palestinians including innocent civillians?

2. Christians slaughtered 800+ Palestinians including innocent civillians?

3. Israel failed to stop the slaughter of 800+ Palestinians including innocent civillians?

I know I know you will pick option 3... because the facts are really not important... and it's the damn Zionists who are evil.

edit: Just one question though... where is the thread to remember "Black September" ... you know when the Jordanians began the slaughter of 50,000 Palestinians... I believe that started on September 16th too. I guess we should only remember "Holocausts" that the Jews were associated with.
 
Last edited:

Doboji

Diamond Member
May 18, 2001
7,912
0
76
Holocaust isn't the right word for this. Just call it a massacre.
This is a common tactic used by anti-semites to attack Jews for remembering the Holocaust by using the term wherever possible to de-associate it with the systematic slaughter of 12 million innocent people in europe by the German Nazis.
 

Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
8,059
55
86
3. Israel failed to stop the slaughter of 800+ Palestinians including innocent civillians?
the Israeli forces enabled the entrance of the angry Kataeb Party group to the refugee camps, by providing them transportation from outside Beirut with Israeli military Helicopters (pick up and drop into the camps) and firing illuminating flares over the camps to enable the killing to continue during the night.
That looks a little bit more like the Israelis helped the massacre along, rather then simply failed to stop it?
 

Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
8,059
55
86
This is a common tactic used by anti-semites to attack Jews for remembering the Holocaust by using the term wherever possible to de-associate it with the systematic slaughter of 12 million innocent people in europe by the German Nazis.
Harabec up there a few posts would rather just not mention the Holccaust and just forget about it.
 

Harabec

Golden Member
Oct 15, 2005
1,371
1
81
Don't try to put words into my mouth.
I'm realistic. SandEagle is trolling us and using the massacre in a cynical way to bash *insert your opinion here* for his P&N post. I bet:
1. No one gives a damn about those who actually killed, only the fact that Israel was involved.
2. No one gives a damn about the whole thing but you'd still argue about it here.

Forget? no :)
But said event has zero relevance to me, my brothers and likewise to most palestinians living today.
Bringing up the past and blowing whistles over and over just calls for more hate by every new generation. Yeah, there are enemies here. We are each other's enemies. You make peace with your enemy. If you want to keep digging up the bad stuff each side does as an enemy, you're never going to get anywhere.

P&N has no real sympathy for anything, that's my POV, so any such attempt is BS/cynicism/propaganda at best.
 

Doboji

Diamond Member
May 18, 2001
7,912
0
76
That looks a little bit more like the Israelis helped the massacre along, rather then simply failed to stop it?
If you take this particular wiki article as truth, then yes. A wiki article couldnt be biased,and wrong could it?
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
11,905
1,244
126
So what really happened-did Israel merely fail to stop the massacre (as commonly reported in the Western press and as I vaguely remember it) or did Israel actively participate in the killings by trucking in the killers and dropping flares by helicopters so the killings could continue into the night, as the wiki article linked in the claims.

As a American without any skin in this game I always viewed it as another sad example of Mideast craziness, but my opinion of Israel would be greatly decreased if they actively participated in this massacre (certainly not a holocaust).
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
That looks a little bit more like the Israelis helped the massacre along, rather then simply failed to stop it?
If you take this particular wiki article as truth, then yes. A wiki article couldnt be biased,and wrong could it?
Other articles conflict with each other and Wiki.

Some state that the Israeli's let people in to look for terror cells within the Palestinians

Some state that the Israeli's participated

Others, that Israel stood by - internal issue


Israel was at least, an unwitting accomplis for a revenge party.
Whether they actually participated is up in the air.

The Palestinians within the camp(s) had previously done another massacre and were accussed of being responsible for the assination of the Lebonese president.
 

Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
8,059
55
86
It looks to me that everyone at the UN and separate commissions agreed, but would not go as far as calling it a genocide.
 

SandEagle

Lifer
Aug 4, 2007
16,813
11
0
Don't try to put words into my mouth.
I'm realistic. SandEagle is trolling us and using the massacre in a cynical way to bash *insert your opinion here* for his P&N post. I bet:
1. No one gives a damn about those who actually killed, only the fact that Israel was involved.
2. No one gives a damn about the whole thing but you'd still argue about it here.

Forget? no :)
But said event has zero relevance to me, my brothers and likewise to most palestinians living today.
Bringing up the past and blowing whistles over and over just calls for more hate by every new generation. Yeah, there are enemies here. We are each other's enemies. You make peace with your enemy. If you want to keep digging up the bad stuff each side does as an enemy, you're never going to get anywhere.

P&N has no real sympathy for anything, that's my POV, so any such attempt is BS/cynicism/propaganda at best.
if you're a realist, why do u care what I post? 90% of P&N threads are trolling against Muslims, Arabs, immigrants, etc anyway.

you and 99% of P&N may look at Palestinians and Lebanese people as worthless, thus the attitude. but to me they're real humans that are suffering without getting the help and attention that they deserve
 

Doboji

Diamond Member
May 18, 2001
7,912
0
76
Other articles conflict with each other and Wiki.

Some state that the Israeli's let people in to look for terror cells within the Palestinians

Some state that the Israeli's participated

Others, that Israel stood by - internal issue


Israel was at least, an unwitting accomplis for a revenge party.
Whether they actually participated is up in the air.

The Palestinians within the camp(s) had previously done another massacre and were accussed of being responsible for the assination of the Lebonese president.
This is correct... it is extremely unclear whether Israel knew what was happening inside the camps... I've actually done quite a bit of research on the subject... and there's alot more information out there than you might think. The research I did seemed to indicate that SOME soldiers were aware of what was happening, but the communication of the events was muddled and confused in transmission back to command.

What is clear however, is that Israel certainly didn't "illuminate the camp with flares in order to facilitate the slaughter during the night"... as indicated by the Wiki article linked by the OP.

What is also clear is that Lebanese Arabs, who were Christian DID commit a savage massacre in the refugee camps. But all anyone wants to talk about is Jewish involvement. Pretty sad.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
if you're a realist, why do u care what I post? 90% of P&N threads are trolling against Muslims, Arabs, immigrants, etc anyway.

you and 99% of P&N may look at Palestinians and Lebanese people as worthless, thus the attitude. but to me they're real humans that are suffering without getting the help and attention that they deserve
The problems may be that the Palestinian and Lebonese people have chosen a path that has turned out badly for them.

And when confonted about it; they refuse to change direction but blame others for their mistakes.

The Palestinians have recieved plenty of money from all over the world to help them; yet they have not utilized it effeciently to improve their lot.

Lebanon has been torn apart by wars; some of their own making; others that they left the door open for.
 

cumhail

Senior member
Apr 1, 2003
682
0
0
This is correct... it is extremely unclear whether Israel knew what was happening inside the camps... I've actually done quite a bit of research on the subject... and there's alot more information out there than you might think. The research I did seemed to indicate that SOME soldiers were aware of what was happening, but the communication of the events was muddled and confused in transmission back to command.

What is clear however, is that Israel certainly didn't "illuminate the camp with flares in order to facilitate the slaughter during the night"... as indicated by the Wiki article linked by the OP.

What is also clear is that Lebanese Arabs, who were Christian DID commit a savage massacre in the refugee camps. But all anyone wants to talk about is Jewish involvement. Pretty sad.
The Kahan commission found that Ariel Sharon (the Defense Minister at the time) and the IDF were indirectly responsible for the massacre. But I guess they were just biased against Israel...
 

Doboji

Diamond Member
May 18, 2001
7,912
0
76
The Kahan commission found that Ariel Sharon (the Defense Minister at the time) and the IDF were indirectly responsible for the massacre. But I guess they were just biased against Israel...
Did you read the commision's report? I did
... it did not find Ariel Sharon perpetrated the massacre... it found that as the military commander in the area, it was his responsibility to prevent the massacre... and thereby his responsibility.

However we do know for 100% certainty that Arab Christians did in fact massacre these poor Palestinians...
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY