Religious discrimination or not?

[bfdd]

What are you talking about? Religious Jews don't work friday night, they go home early.

really? someone should have told my boss then.

 

[ElFenix]

really? someone should have told my boss then.

only during the high holidays is my boss gone on friday night. usually he's up here on saturdays, though i think he's trying to avoid his wife.

It cannot wait till Summer? Is she terminally ill or thinks she is likely to die before the summer? Or is there something special about the date she picked in regards to the religion?

the hajj is the 8th - 12th days of the last month of the islamic calendar. because the islamic calendar is lunar, the hajj moves earlier in the gregorian calendar each year. so, if she waited to do the hajj in summer it'd be a decade or two.

but 3 weeks is unnecessary and unreasonable.

 

[piasabird]

There are plenty of laid off school teachers in Illinois. This is a joke. Schools always think every time you want to take an extended vacation, is the wrong time. It is a sorry excuse to just deny her some vacation time. After all if this is a one time in a lifetime request, then it might make her a better teacher. At least she cant request time off every year and claim she needs to go. If it is important just go and worry about it later. It is harder to fire teachers than you think.

Let her teach Summer school to make up the time.

If need be offer to let her leave on vacation with no pay.

 

[Unheard]

There are plenty of laid off school teachers in Illinois. This is a joke. Schools always think every time you want to take an extended vacation, is the wrong time. It is a sorry excuse to just deny her some vacation time. After all if this is a one time in a lifetime request, then it might make her a better teacher. At least she cant request time off every year and claim she needs to go. If it is important just go and worry about it later. It is harder to fire teachers than you think.

Let her teach Summer school to make up the time.

If need be offer to let her leave on vacation with no pay.

Try working for any other job for just 9 months and saying, I need 3 weeks off boss.

 

[Zargon]

There are plenty of laid off school teachers in Illinois. This is a joke. Schools always think every time you want to take an extended vacation, is the wrong time. It is a sorry excuse to just deny her some vacation time. After all if this is a one time in a lifetime request, then it might make her a better teacher. At least she cant request time off every year and claim she needs to go. If it is important just go and worry about it later. It is harder to fire teachers than you think.

Let her teach Summer school to make up the time.

If need be offer to let her leave on vacation with no pay.

she probably has 1-3 vaction days, period

the rest would be sick leave, and shes OBVIOUSLY not sick.

teachers dont generally get much for actual vacation time, beyond the 100 weekdays they already get off

'working for free during summer school' would likekl violate the union contract, also, summer school is usually pretty sought after for teaching, so you would piss off a bunch of other teachers to make this annoying new teacher happy

What are you talking about? Religious Jews don't work friday night, they go home early.

the handful I used to work with didnt except for actual 'holiday seasons'

I have certainly been at work on sundays next to devout catholics

 

[boomerang]

Then the cardinals would have to prove that they couldn't spare him at that time. I think they'd probably win that case. Here it remains to be seen.

It's nice everyone has an opinion and all, anyone care what the law is or nah?

In the scenario you're replying to, would it require the intervention of the DOJ? That's part of what rudder is asking. I would say not.

You're sounding like a broken record with the legal this and legal that shtick, but some investigation beyond the scope of this article reveals more facts that clarify what really transpired.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/263025/mecca-she-goes-mona-charen

Here are the facts: Safoorah Khan, 29, was hired to teach middle-school math in November 2007. According to her lawyer, she was happy in her job, which included preparing sixth, seventh, and eighth graders for state tests, and running the “math lab.” After nine months on the job, Khan requested a three-week leave of absence in order to perform the hajj — the pilgrimage to Mecca that all Muslims are obliged to undertake at least once in their lives if they can afford it.

-​

Employers are required by law to honor requests for religious accommodations provided that they do not impose “undue hardship” on the employer or other employees. Berkeley officials maintained that a three-week absence in December — which would have denied the school its only math-lab instructor right before exams — was unreasonable and not covered by the teachers’-union contract. They denied her request. Khan decided to make the trip anyway and submitted her resignation.

She also submitted a letter of complaint to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, charging that the school board’s refusal to grant the 19-day leave amounted to religious discrimination. “They put her in a position where she had to choose,” her lawyer, Kamran A. Memon, told the Post, and this revealed “anti-Muslim hostility.”

The town’s former mayor disagreed. “The school district just wanted a teacher in the room for those three weeks,” said Michael A. Esposito. “They didn’t care if she was a Martian, a Muslim, or a Catholic.”

The evidence against her case is pretty sizable. Your argument revolves around her right to sue. She has that for sure. The DOJ being involved hearkens back to the day of Obama sticking his nose in petty cases involving cops and professors in Massachusetts. It's micro-management and is unnecessary. What's the Muslim version of a Beer Summit called?

IMO, she should lose this case and be required to reimburse the school district for the cost of its defense. This is a nuisance suit and should be treated as such. Mr. Holder and his minions should devote their resources to far bigger issues that one individual.

But then again, it is in Illinois...

 

[jonks]

Mr. Holder and his minions should devote their resources to far bigger issues that one individual.

My position, as Megyn Kelly stated (did I just say that?) is that the school will have to prove it's claim, not that they can or can't. It's impressive that you've read the articles and determined she has no case, I'm withholding judgment just yet.

And it's silly to say this is about one individual when almost all cases are about one individual. The precedent will affect millions and that's why they intervened.

As to the folks above it doesn't sound like your jewish bosses are particularly observant.

 

[ch33zw1z]

It's not discrimination. It doesn't matter if she's going to mecca or South America, Indonesia, Idontgiveafuckistan...paid leave during crunch time are not usually granted.

 

[ElFenix]

And it's silly to say this is about one individual when almost all cases are about one individual. The precedent will affect millions and that's why they intervened.

As to the folks above it doesn't sound like your jewish bosses are particularly observant.

i'm going to guess this is not a novel new question. this case likely won't make any precedent, it will likely follow whatever precedent already exists.


the guy puts cheese on his hamburger so no, i guess he's not that observant.

 

[Darwin333]

Sure glad they are handling the really important shit and not bothering with the non-important stuff like banksters (among others) committing a few thousand counts of fraud and stealing trillions of dollars.

 

[Zargon]

My position, as Megyn Kelly stated (did I just say that?) is that the school will have to prove it's claim, not that they can or can't. It's impressive that you've read the articles and determined she has no case, I'm withholding judgment just yet.

And it's silly to say this is about one individual when almost all cases are about one individual. The precedent will affect millions and that's why they intervened.

As to the folks above it doesn't sound like your jewish bosses are particularly observant.

probably not

way easier for someone with a 'real job' to make up lost time, teachers can't. so it snot really a good comparison

 

[Darwin333]

the school needs to prove that it could not spare this teacher for the three weeks during the school year. Can it do that? I have no idea. It hasn't offered that evidence to date. It will have to prove that in a court of law, and if it can, it will win. If it cannot, the Department of Justice will win. Period. [Fox News, America Live, 3/23/11]

so there ya go

The school has stated that the teacher in question is the only teacher at the school qualified to teach the specific subject or lab. Should be quite easy to verify.

The school has stated that the timing was right before exams which in the schools opinion, and mine as well, is just about the worst time to lose the only teacher for pretty much the most important subject taught. Should also be quite easy to determine when exams where held. I guess the necessity of having a teacher qualified to teach a particular subject leading up to exams is subjective but I think most reasonable people agree that it is pretty damned important.

Lastly, I am not aware of any requirement that says you have to go travel to Mecca at a certain time of year or even in a certain year. From what I understand a Muslim is required to make the pilgrimage once in their lifetime and that is pretty much it, please correct me if I am wrong. I would think that most reasonable people would agree that one of the two parties schedules was very flexible and the others was not flexible at all. There could have been "convenience" factors involved such as a group of her family and friends all making the trip at that time and she wanted to join them but that would be a matter of convenience and not of religion.

Assuming that the easily verifiable things that the school has stated are true, what other facts do you require to form a semi-educated opinion?

 

[Darwin333]

Then the cardinals would have to prove that they couldn't spare him at that time. I think they'd probably win that case. Here it remains to be seen.

It's nice everyone has an opinion and all, anyone care what the law is or nah?

This is an honest question as I am not a lawyer nor am I very familiar with this particular law:

Wouldn't the other side have to also prove that their religion required them to go at that specific time or at the very least some other circumstances that absolutely required them to go at that particular time and not at a time that was not as critical to the employer?

 

[ElFenix]

Lastly, I am not aware of any requirement that says you have to go travel to Mecca at a certain time of year or even in a certain year. From what I understand a Muslim is required to make the pilgrimage once in their lifetime and that is pretty much it, please correct me if I am wrong. I would think that most reasonable people would agree that one of the two parties schedules was very flexible and the others was not flexible at all. There could have been "convenience" factors involved such as a group of her family and friends all making the trip at that time and she wanted to join them but that would be a matter of convenience and not of religion.

Assuming that the easily verifiable things that the school has stated are true, what other facts do you require to form a semi-educated opinion?

i already posted the answer to that above. the hajj is a specific holiday that happens at a specific time in the islamic calendar. so, yes, it does say to go to mecca at a certain time of year.

however, compared to a solar year that time of year moves up more than a week each year. per wiki it cycles through every 33 years or so.



i think the worst fact against her is that she asked for 3 weeks off for a 5 day holiday. if she asked for 3 weeks, was denied, and didn't come back with a more narrowly tailored period, she didn't offer to be reasonably accommodated in the first place.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

It's not religious discrimination as everyone sane responding has already made quite clear.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

I think I will change my religion to roman catholic, take a month off to go to rome and make a holy pilgrimage.

I am sure there are all kinds of sites I can see,,, uh,,,,, I mean pray at in Rome.

There is too much involved, just be an evangelical, that's a free card for being as crazy as you like in all situations.

 

[Darwin333]

i already posted the answer to that above. the hajj is a specific holiday that happens at a specific time in the islamic calendar. so, yes, it does say to go to mecca at a certain time of year.

however, compared to a solar year that time of year moves up more than a week each year. per wiki it cycles through every 33 years or so.



i think the worst fact against her is that she asked for 3 weeks off for a 5 day holiday. if she asked for 3 weeks, was denied, and didn't come back with a more narrowly tailored period, she didn't offer to be reasonably accommodated in the first place.

But it does happen every year and Muslims are not required to do it any particular year? I didn't necessarily say she had to do it over the summer only that removing the only teacher that can teach a math class for 3 weeks right before exams is the absolute worst time. If it moves up a week each year it should conflict less with exam time each year. I agree with the 3 weeks for a 5 day holiday but even beyond that it seems unreasonable to request off during the time you are most needed and suing for religious discrimination for something your religion does not require you to do any particular year. Especially considering what you said about the date moving every year as it won't always conflict with exams.

And thank you for posting the information again, I generally skim in religious threads and even more so in threads having anything to do with Islam.

 

[HAL9000]

So obama's justice department is suing an Illinois school district because they denied leave to a teacher. The leave was for the teacher to attend a pilgrimage to mecca which many muslims do at least once in a lifetime.

This teacher was the school's only meth lab instructor...

D:

No it's not religious discrimination, because this isn't a religious pilgrimage she can only make on these dates, she chose when to do it, the rule isn't "Muslims must make a pilgrimage to mecca on their 33rd year between April and May..." or "when the moon is full and twelve chickens have died in your presence" or some other bollocks. You have to do it "at some point"... Therefore do it whenever.

 

[piasabird]

East St Louis, School District (Near St Louis, MO), just announced it was laying off 300 teachers. So you cant say that they cant find a math teacher to replace her for 3 weeks. Just hire a University Math Major. You guys act like this is such a rediculous request. I think it is reasonable to allow her to take the time off. Probably asked for the time off way ahead of time. I think it would be a reasonable accomodation. You have no point of reference concerning people that come from different cultures.

If a school system hires a muslim, then they have to expect them to eventually make a pilgrimige. I think it is a reasonable request.

 

[Zargon]

East St Louis, School District (Near St Louis, MO), just announced it was laying off 300 teachers. So you cant say that they cant find a math teacher to replace her for 3 weeks. Just hire a University Math Major. You guys act like this is such a rediculous request. I think it is reasonable to allow her to take the time off. Probably asked for the time off way ahead of time. I think it would be a reasonable accomodation. You have no point of reference concerning people that come from different cultures.

If a school system hires a muslim, then they have to expect them to eventually make a pilgrimige. I think it is a reasonable request.

I'm sure one of those teachers would make the 5 hour commute to sub for a few days

you seem to forget that costs money and they are paying you to be there.

just hire a math major? last I heard in IL you have to have a 4 year degree to sub

look into more and see for a week long thing she requested 19 days off too


you have shown in your posts you really hae no clue how schools work at all

3 weeks off is a large request at any job, let alone one where they have to pay someone to be there when you arent, and you only work ~186 days a year....she asked for 10% of her contract off, with pay.

must be nice to expect that to happen

 

[ch33zw1z]

East St Louis, School District (Near St Louis, MO), just announced it was laying off 300 teachers. So you cant say that they cant find a math teacher to replace her for 3 weeks. Just hire a University Math Major. You guys act like this is such a rediculous request. I think it is reasonable to allow her to take the time off. Probably asked for the time off way ahead of time. I think it would be a reasonable accomodation. You have no point of reference concerning people that come from different cultures.

If a school system hires a muslim, then they have to expect them to eventually make a pilgrimige. I think it is a reasonable request.

Bold 1: Yea, easy peasy, just hire one on the spot JUST for the last part of the semester. An new hire who knows the students and the curriculum and can teach at that level. Perfect, no sweat. Be sure to let them know that it's only for a few weeks as well.

Bold 2: When you hire somebody and they're a practicing Muslim, you don't ask IF they've taken the pilgrimage or not, you don't assume...it's not even a f'in topic during the hiring process. You CAN expect them to make it a reasonable time to request the paid leave..not when you're needed the most.

 

[Scotteq]

Bold 1: Yea, easy peasy, just hire one on the spot JUST for the last part of the semester. An new hire who knows the students and the curriculum and can teach at that level. Perfect, no sweat. Be sure to let them know that it's only for a few weeks as well.

Bold 2: When you hire somebody and they're a practicing Muslim, you don't ask IF they've taken the pilgrimage or not, you don't assume...it's not even a f'in topic during the hiring process. You CAN expect them to make it a reasonable time to request the paid leave..not when you're needed the most.

To add: As a hiring manager, you are not even allowed to *ask* about a person's religion (as well as several other topics)

 

[Zargon]

yup.

pisa doesnt have a clue...

 

[ConstipatedVigilante]

Its the American way - You either be here when we need you, or your fired.

I do not think that is discrimination, its our American workaholic attitude. In other words, its the American way.

It's called being reliable and doing your job. People depend on her expertise (which she said she would give) and now she wants to leave for an unjustified reason. I can't believe this is foreign to some people.

 

[piasabird]

I work at a community college stupid.