Christ says nothign prohibiting consentual homosexual relationships.
He explicitly commands that the "old laws" be thrown out when they do not square with the great commandment.
Lots of "Christians" want homosexuallity to be immoral, but they must put God first and read what Christ said.
He explicitly commands that the "old laws" be thrown out when they do not square with the great commandment.
Lots of "Christians" want homosexuallity to be immoral, but they must put God first and read what Christ said.
Amused
Elite Member
- Apr 14, 2001
- 57,543
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Maybe as soon as you realize there is no god, you'll find reality.
The only system that allows a free mind, is a free market. Of course, this matters not to elitists like yourself who feel they know better than the masses, and must control them. Only you wrap it up in some BS story that it's about "love." If you really love people, you'll leave them the fsck alone.
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
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Moonie, if you know no more about God than do the Fundies, then I really don't see how you can expect me to read or reply to your posts on the subject.
In the New Testament, Jesus gave the people the Great Commandment, given in 2 forms.
This is found in Matthew 22:34-40:
34 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.
35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Another form is found in Matthew 7:12, otherwise known as the "Golden Rule"
"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets."
To me, this is the shining example of what God expects from people and what plan He has for them. In order to have a perfect world, the shining utopia that most of us dream of, all that we as human beings have to do is voluntarily chose to treat everyone else as we ourselves would wish to be treated. In every circumstance and in every case, "there but for the Grace of God go I" is what we should think. That is all.
Knowing that, Moonie, how can you say that "what God wants is for the people on earth to live in the sickest, most psychotically self centered culture they can devise" ??
What God knows is that human beings cannot be forced to do anything against their will and like it at the same time.
For example, the article above quotes, from the story of the "Rich Young Prince," Matthew 19:21 -
"Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me."
And Matthew 19:23 -
"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven."
But conveniently leaves out the verse between, Matthew 19:22 -
"But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions."
Jesus let the rich young prince walk away, his soul unsaved. He did nothing to stop him, nor to force the prince to give his "great" wealth to the poor, as I know that you would advocate doing.
So yes, Moonie - voluntary.
And I believe that it is widely recognized that Jesus whipped the money-changers in the temple, not simply because they were money-changers, but because they were in the temple and they were forcing the people to use their services (the purchasing of alms and offerings) in order for them to worship. In essence, they were charging admission to the temple. This is why Jesus whipped them. I would not say the He was whipping capitalism so much as He was whipping monopoly and the desecration of the sacred temple.
editted per post below
yea it always threw me off that no one else noticed that most christians today would probably call jesus a hippie if they ever met him
he never said anything against sleeping with your mother or your dog either. I guess those are two more old laws that he wanted thrown out?
Or would the first century church (whose leaders lived with Jesus), maybe known what Jesus considered moral and immoral when they instituted specific rules against homosexual behavior in their community?
One way to study this type of stuff is to ask "were Judeo-Christian laws more or less strict/prohibitive about a topic than the general cultural acceptance level at the time?"
Apply this question to three different topics:
Slavery: Judeo-Christian laws generally treated slaves better than what the ancient culture required. Conclusion: ultimate priciple of abolition of slavery.
Women: Judeo-Christian laws generally treated women better than what the ancient cuture required. Conclusion: principles of women's equallity.
Homosexuality: Judeo-Christian laws specifically prohibited activities accepted in ancient culture. Conclusion: continued prohibition of activities sill accepted in modern culture within church.
ooooh, there's a shocker! more personal attacks from the pagans!!!
You obviously have no idea what my beliefs are nor have you read any of my posts regarding this matter (adherence to Biblical teachings). I have stated many times in the past that I believe the Bible is the literal word of G-d and have spoken out against the apostate Luciferian churches of today. Yeshua said in Matthew 5:17-18 (this is not the first time I have quoted this passage by any means) "17 Think not that I have come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one title shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Yeshua followed the Mosaic Law/ten commandments and commanded his followers to do the same.
Please explain how this demonstrates "my belief" that when Yeshua came "everything changed to whatever I want it to mean." Quite the opposite.
Feel free to insert foot in mouth now. Now the question is: will you? Your humanistic attitude and foolish pride dictate that you won't but the outcome remains to be seen.
Sorry, no. Read my previous post. Matthew 5:17-18 (spoken by Yeshua HaMashiach) states the exact opposite of this modern-day fallacy. This is a false belief furthered by the modern apostolic church so as to lead Christians away from righteousness and salvation. "Jesus" never rescinded anything, Matthew 5:17-18 states this *specifically*.
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
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Pardon me, I used improper wording. He didn't rescind them, He made them superfluous, i.e. following the 10 Commandments falls inside following the Great Commandment and the Golden Rule as a matter of course. For example, if one murders or thieves, then one is certainly NOT loving thy neighbor as thyself.
Obviously you want homosexuality to be wrong.
Ask yourself what is more important, what you want or what God wants?
Miramonti
Lifer
- Aug 26, 2000
- 28,653
- 100
- 106
The verses mentioned above and what I mentioned, all of which I'm sure you're familiar with, support a much more socialistic ideology than capitalism. Capitalism is as contrary to Jesus' teachings as you can get imo
I would be interested in what verses in the new testament you feel support a more capitalist ideology than a socialist one as referenced from the verses above.
Spoken like a true elitist. The only system. Hehe, where have I heard that before. You are a true believer. If you believed your own Bull sh!t you'd let your kids drown in a pool or wonder out in the street. When you turned 18 you didn't stop being a moron. But fret not, I'm here to save you, you poor poor dear. I know Mommy smothered you in attention and you haven't yet broken psychologically free, but your individuality crap is just that, crap. Man is a collective mind. We live by donating our gifts. You no doubt make a mean sandwich. And if you knew anything about yourself you'd know something about God, oh relatively ignorant one.
I wasn't saying that people should live in the sickest world, Vic. That was sarcasm against the notion that if we live in a sick society we should accept it because God's kingdom is elsewhere. I believe that God revelation is active and not passive. Perhaps you can tell me why Jesus let the prince walk away unsaved but scattered the money changers. Why didn't he let them continue their ways unsaved. Would God take a piece of food from the hand of a rich man to feed a starving man if the rich man didn't want to give it? How much should the Lover stand by and watch. What should be the response to evil. Turn the other man's cheek?Originally posted by: Vic
Moonie, if you know no more about God than do the Fundies, then I really don't see how you can expect me to read or reply to your posts on the subject.
In the New Testament, Jesus gave the people the Great Commandment, given in 2 forms.
This is found in Matthew 22:34-40:
34 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.
35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Another form is found in Matthew 7:12, otherwise known as the "Golden Rule"
"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets."
To me, this is the shining example of what God expects from people and what plan He has for them. In order to have a perfect world, the shining utopia that most of us dream of, all that we as human beings have to do is voluntarily chose to treat everyone else as we ourselves would wish to be treated. In every circumstance and in every case, "there but for the Grace of God go I" is what we should think. That is all.
Knowing that, Moonie, how can you say that "what God wants is for the people on earth to live in the sickest, most psychotically self centered culture they can devise" ??
What God knows is that human beings cannot be forced to do anything against their will and like it at the same time.
For example, the article above quotes, from the story of the "Rich Young Prince," Matthew 19:21 -
"Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me."
And Matthew 19:23 -
"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven."
But conveniently leaves out the verse between, Matthew 19:22 -
"But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions."
Jesus let the rich young prince walk away, his soul unsaved. He did nothing to stop him, nor to force the prince to give his "great" wealth to the poor, as I know that you would advocate doing.
So yes, Moonie - voluntary.
And I believe that it is widely recognized that Jesus whipped the money-changers in the temple, not simply because they were money-changers, but because they were in the temple and they were forcing the people to use their services (the purchasing of alms and offerings) in order for them to worship. In essence, they were charging admission to the temple. This is why Jesus whipped them. I would not say the He was whipping capitalism so much as He was whipping monopoly and the desecration of the sacred temple.
editted per post below
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
- 50,422
- 14,337
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The response to evil is to do righteous; and not evil in return.
Many people throughout the ages (and even in the Bible) have asked, How long will God stand by and let evil continue? The answer is as long as He sees fit to do so.
Ask yourself this: if God came today and purged the world of evil and forced all people to do righteousness, would we praise Him or curse Him? IMO, it will be in that day when we will praise Him that He will finally come. That could be a long wait still (or not).
For myself, I will not usurp God's place or power, nor picture myself to do what God will not.
But IMO, neither the OT or the NT dictate any political doctrines that could be compared with either modern liberalism or modern conservativism, because both of the modern philosophies are tainted with the evil of enforced non-voluntary individual participation (whether their respective supporters choose to see this evil or not).
You see, Moonie, the basis of freedom is the freedom not to take part. No one seems to remember that anymore. As the collective of the ant colony begins with an individual ant, so does the collective of the human city. As man may be a collective mind, so is the human brain, where I think you would agree that it is wise not to lose too many brain cells.
Inside the doctrine of Jesus is satisfaction for both the collective and the individual, but it requires the voluntary participation of the individual. Hence "faith," which can never be enforced upon the individual by the collective. Faith, in the secular sense, is believing that the right actions of the individual can lead to the greater good of all, including the individual in return. As with faith in the religious sense, it can be very difficult to acheive.
edit: About the money-changers, I thought I already said so. They blocked access to the temple, charging admission to the faithful. They corrupted the faith in God with the worship of mammon, affecting and tainting all the worshippers. The prince did none of these things. He had faith in all that God said (read the whole passage) EXCEPT that he lacked the belief that God would provide for him or make him great, and instead placed that faith upon his material wealth. In doing so, only his own soul was lost.
edit2: There's a lesson to learned there, Moonie. You do not need to force the wealth from others (even though the wealthy wickedly and selfishly withhold it). The Lord will provide or, in secular terms, there's enough to go 'round.
Many people throughout the ages (and even in the Bible) have asked, How long will God stand by and let evil continue? The answer is as long as He sees fit to do so.
Ask yourself this: if God came today and purged the world of evil and forced all people to do righteousness, would we praise Him or curse Him? IMO, it will be in that day when we will praise Him that He will finally come. That could be a long wait still (or not).
For myself, I will not usurp God's place or power, nor picture myself to do what God will not.
But IMO, neither the OT or the NT dictate any political doctrines that could be compared with either modern liberalism or modern conservativism, because both of the modern philosophies are tainted with the evil of enforced non-voluntary individual participation (whether their respective supporters choose to see this evil or not).
You see, Moonie, the basis of freedom is the freedom not to take part. No one seems to remember that anymore. As the collective of the ant colony begins with an individual ant, so does the collective of the human city. As man may be a collective mind, so is the human brain, where I think you would agree that it is wise not to lose too many brain cells.
Inside the doctrine of Jesus is satisfaction for both the collective and the individual, but it requires the voluntary participation of the individual. Hence "faith," which can never be enforced upon the individual by the collective. Faith, in the secular sense, is believing that the right actions of the individual can lead to the greater good of all, including the individual in return. As with faith in the religious sense, it can be very difficult to acheive.
edit: About the money-changers, I thought I already said so. They blocked access to the temple, charging admission to the faithful. They corrupted the faith in God with the worship of mammon, affecting and tainting all the worshippers. The prince did none of these things. He had faith in all that God said (read the whole passage) EXCEPT that he lacked the belief that God would provide for him or make him great, and instead placed that faith upon his material wealth. In doing so, only his own soul was lost.
edit2: There's a lesson to learned there, Moonie. You do not need to force the wealth from others (even though the wealthy wickedly and selfishly withhold it). The Lord will provide or, in secular terms, there's enough to go 'round.
Hehe, Vic. Please know that I appreciate much of what you say. Where you and I may differ is in our notions of the origin of evil. I believe that much evil is systemic, the outgrowth the circumstances in wheich we live. I believe that a better system produces a more voluntary spirited man. The rich man fears giving up his wealth because our system is built on the power of wealth. Were it built of the spirit og brotherly love he would have much less to fear. God is hidden from those who kling.
huh? why would I want something to be "wrong"
I think everyone would like a world where you can do whatever you want whenever you want, but God gave guidelines. He's the one who specifically said don't have sex with a man like you do with a woman. Personally, that's not a huge burden to bear, but I feel sorry for people who for some physiological reason are attracted to the same sex. Or maybe I should say I feel sorry for guys who don't look at a really attractive girl and get any sort of thrill. What I "want" has nothing to do with it.
To go around saying "Jesus never said it was wrong" is just plain foolish. There are only a limited number of times when Jesus explicitly went against OT law (or at least the 1st century interpretation of them)... and that wasn't one of them. The rest of the time he clarified or supported the laws of Moses and the prophets.
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
- 50,422
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This is true. I believe that we are all each individually responsible for our own evil, that evil derives from a man's inability to rise above his circumstances. That as I am not responsible for your evil, you are not responsible for mine. I believe this because I believe that the better system can be forced upon us.
But I would not say that God is "hidden" from those who cling to fear. If a man were to cling to the wall of a building, believing that he was at a great height, and he feared to looked down, believing he would fall to his death, then he would never find if that the ground is only a few feet below him and that he could safely step off is he chose to open his eyes and do so. Such is how God is "hidden" from those people.
LunarRay
Diamond Member
- Mar 2, 2003
- 9,993
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I actually, don't see the relationship between the polar politics and God. Jesus (The New Testament) brought with him a new covenant, thus enabling mankind another and superior means to gain entrance to heaven. I mean by this that the Moses Commandments are a way to God but, Jesus paid the ultimate human price for all of us. Can you imagine God taking the role of a man only to be rejected by so many when he could have simply come here in an unmistakable role of God. In any event, His focus was on heaven. All his speeches were in the furtherance of that notion, I believe, and not a method of living among and with the various earthly influences which his "... render unto ... " speech typified.. of course he did say ... more or less.. that to give everything up allows one to focus easier on the goal of our existence... heaven and eternity. When he spoke of Judging lest we be judged what could he have meant. Would that not conflict with his "Render Speech"? Many point to where Jesus said this or that. If he said all he said as recorded is it true he meant how it is interpreted? If everything is seen from God's point of view, what was important to him, you may come away with a different notion of what is recorded and ascribed to him.
God is not hidden from anyone. He is omni present. Each of us who has a soul knows that God is God and knows that Earth is Earth. The problem is, I think, the merging of the two by those who don't fully know either.
God is not hidden from anyone. He is omni present. Each of us who has a soul knows that God is God and knows that Earth is Earth. The problem is, I think, the merging of the two by those who don't fully know either.
Miramonti
Lifer
- Aug 26, 2000
- 28,653
- 100
- 106
Religious right republicans = soapbox theology/morality.
They're more interested in condemning what people shouldn't do rather than doing themselves what they are called to do.
Its too much of a financial sacrifice to help people eat and feed their families, and to help them go to the doctor when they can't afford it, or to help take care of the elderly, while its very convenient to sit on their soapbox and tell people they shouldn't be gay and shouldn't have abortions.
Soapboxes are cheap and cowardly, while actually caring about what Jesus cared about and doing something about it would actually involve a sacrifice, God forbid. Their platform is based on legislating people from "sinning" in response to the ills of the world, while the poor continue to starve and the weak continue to struggle and the disadvantaged continue to be exploited.
Long live the religious right hypocrisy.
They're more interested in condemning what people shouldn't do rather than doing themselves what they are called to do.
Its too much of a financial sacrifice to help people eat and feed their families, and to help them go to the doctor when they can't afford it, or to help take care of the elderly, while its very convenient to sit on their soapbox and tell people they shouldn't be gay and shouldn't have abortions.
Soapboxes are cheap and cowardly, while actually caring about what Jesus cared about and doing something about it would actually involve a sacrifice, God forbid. Their platform is based on legislating people from "sinning" in response to the ills of the world, while the poor continue to starve and the weak continue to struggle and the disadvantaged continue to be exploited.
Long live the religious right hypocrisy.
This is true. I believe that we are all each individually responsible for our own evil, that evil derives from a man's inability to rise above his circumstances. That as I am not responsible for your evil, you are not responsible for mine. I believe this because I believe that the better system can be forced upon us. (I understand this except for this last sentence. What does it mean that the better system can be forced upon us. Every system is forced on us, why not the best one? I don't get it)
But I would not say that God is "hidden" from those who cling to fear. If a man were to cling to the wall of a building, believing that he was at a great height, and he feared to looked down, believing he would fall to his death, then he would never find if that the ground is only a few feet below him and that he could safely step off is he chose to open his eyes and do so. Such is how God is "hidden" from those people. (I think a lot of confusion happens because we don't really have a profoundly deep and shared vocabulary to discuss esoteric things. You say God isn't hidden and so does LunarRay. That's why, I suppose, everybody knows him, no?) He is hidden by his presence, then. Or he isn't hidden. We just don't want to see him. In approaching truth you approach paradox and language goes out the window. Your words are also contradictory to me. Evil is because man can't rise above his circumstances? I said that by changing the system to make it better, people's circumstances would be better and there would be less they have to rise above. How does that compute in your thinking?)
But I would not say that God is "hidden" from those who cling to fear. If a man were to cling to the wall of a building, believing that he was at a great height, and he feared to looked down, believing he would fall to his death, then he would never find if that the ground is only a few feet below him and that he could safely step off is he chose to open his eyes and do so. Such is how God is "hidden" from those people. (I think a lot of confusion happens because we don't really have a profoundly deep and shared vocabulary to discuss esoteric things. You say God isn't hidden and so does LunarRay. That's why, I suppose, everybody knows him, no?) He is hidden by his presence, then. Or he isn't hidden. We just don't want to see him. In approaching truth you approach paradox and language goes out the window. Your words are also contradictory to me. Evil is because man can't rise above his circumstances? I said that by changing the system to make it better, people's circumstances would be better and there would be less they have to rise above. How does that compute in your thinking?)
I believe we judge others if we have condemned ourselves. It is our of our self condemnation that we judge. To judge, then is to fix the self condemnation.
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