Red Sox Pitcher Curt Schilling retires

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SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,928
143
106
Originally posted by: notposting
Sure, as long as Jack Morris gets in.

Jack Morris, as much as I loved watching his forkball, was nowhere near Schilling's numbers. You must have missed this blog:

Incredibly, though, since seeing that comparison I have run across a baseball comparison that is driving me even more insane. This comes from my friend Rick Hummel at the St. Louis Post Dispatch, who is one of the great people and great ball writers around. Rick wrote a column in which the lead item says that people who think Curt Schilling should go into the Hall of Fame are missing ?a potload of more deserving candidates.? I like the word ?potload.? His main argument, while I would disagree with it, is certainly a fair one: Schilling?s career record is 216-146, and that would normally not be viewed as Hall-worthy. I disagree with it because I don?t like the use of pitcher?s won-loss records for reasons that are worth about 10 blog posts. But I certainly concede the point ? Schilling only won 216 games and if he does not come back he is very much a borderline Hall of Fame candidate.

BUT ? then Rick makes the big comparison. If he had written that Schilling?s career (216-146, 3.46 ERA, 127 ERA+) wasn?t much different from obvious non-Hall of Fame Kevin Brown (211-144, 3.28 ERA, 127 ERA+) or even pointed out the eerie similarities between his base numbers and Bob Welch (211-146, 3.47 ERA, though Welch pitched in a much, much better pitching era as his 106 ERA+ indicates), then I would have been on -board. I think Schilling has some serious advantages over those guys, but I would have liked the argument.

But no. Instead, Rick compares to others who won a lot more games ? Blyleven, Tommy John, Jim Kaat and so on. OK, those guys pitched a lot longer, OK, still I?m following. But first, before bringing up Bllyelven, Rick dredged up the name. Oh yeah. He compared Schilling to Jack Morris. I swear, I think sometimes that people just bring up Jack Morris in Hall of Fame arguments because they love seeing me lose it.

It?s bad enough that people keep comparing Jack Morris and Bert Blyleven (and some keep voting for Morris and NOT Blyleven), even though Blyleven was better in every possibly way a pitcher can be better. But in many ways this comparison is EVEN WORSE. OK, well, before I get into why, let?s look at some numbers.

Career ERA: Schilling 3.46, Morris 3.90.
Career ERA+: Schilling 127, Morris 105.
Strikeouts: Schilling 3,116, Morris 2,478.
Walks: Schilling 711, Morris 1,390.
WHIP: Schilling 1.137, Morris 1.296.
Winning percentage: Schilling .597, Morris .577.

OK, so all those go to Schilling by wide margins. WIDE margins. I mean, WIDE margins. Morris, however, won 254 games to Schilling?s 216. How about that? Well, even if you take that serious, to me, the argument has no steam. Morris? career record was 254-186. Schilling?s is, as mentioned, 216-146.

That would mean that for Schilling to MATCH Jack Morris? career totals, he would have to go 38-40 with a 6.46 ERA. If that?s the difference between Curt and the Hall, maybe he can come back and pitch left-handed.

But that?s not why I hate the comparison ? after all, Blyleven?s numbers crush Morris to an even greater extent.* No ? what I hate about the argument is this: Morris? case revolves almost entirely around him being a ?clutch pitcher.? Right? I mean, if you don?t buy into all that clutchiness then basically all you?ve got is a rugged pitcher who threw a bunch of innings for good teams, naturally won quite a lot of games and was, all in all, a little better than league average.

*The difference between Blyleven and Morris includes more than 1,200 strikeouts, 32 shutouts and more than 1,100 innings with zero walks and a 1.36 ERA.

But that?s not the Hall of Fame argument. The Hall of Fame argument is that Morris delivered in the big moments, that he threw one of the great games in baseball history (Game 7, 1991, of course) and that game summarized the grit and steel nerve of his career. The Hall of Fame argument is that Morris pitched to the score, lifted his game, came through in the clutch, was best when he needed to be, and true he may not have had a great ERA, and he may not have dominated like other great pitchers, but when the chips were down, and breaks were going against the boys, and backs were against the wall, and there was no tomorrow, well by gosh, that was when Jack Morris stood tall in the saddle.

And this is why this comparison drives me insane. Because it?s bad enough to have to argue with the myths and judgements of Jack Morris? unshakeable character. But hell, if THAT?S your argument, then holy cow, Curt Schilling is a MUCH better example. He was a MUCH better postseason pitcher. He pitched the bloody sock game. He and Unit beat the mighty Yankees. The numbers aren?t close.

Postseason
Jack Morris: 7-4, 3.80 ERA.
Curt Schilling: 11-2, 2.23 ERA.

World Series
Jack Morris: 4-2, 2.96 ERA.
Curt Schilling: 4-1, 2.08 ERA.

And so, yeah, that bugs me. Now the argument is that he was tougher than Blyleven but at the same time he won more games than Curt Schilling? Ugh. Suddenly, Jack Morris has become a two-front war.

Schilling beat Morris in every significant stat imaginable except total wins. But Morris has more total losses so who gives a dam? If Morris gets in, then Schill is by default an automatic shoe-in.
 

evident

Lifer
Apr 5, 2005
12,144
764
126
you guys are a bunch of morans who discredit his phillies years. no matter how bad the phillies were when he was here, if it wasn't for his solid stats as a phillie, he wouldnt be considered for anything.
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,543
651
126
Note - Schilling also pitched in the NL for the majority of his career which is a more pitcher friendly league compared to Morris. If he had pitched his whole career in the AL, his numbers wouldn't have been worse.

fwiw - Schilling, Morris and Blyleven should all be in the HOF
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,928
143
106
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Note - Schilling also pitched in the NL for the majority of his career which is a more pitcher friendly league compared to Morris. If he had pitched his whole career in the AL, his numbers wouldn't have been worse.
Wrong, take their best two full seasons (Schilling only had 2 with Boston, the other two he was hurt) of 200 innings or more and compare ERA+ (higher is better):

Schilling's top two:
150 and 120.

Morris's top two:
127 and 126.

Take their best two WHIPS in the AL (lower is better):
Schill: 1.06 and 1.21
Morris: 1.15 and 1.16

Also consider that Schilling pitched at hitter friendly Fenway (Morris pitched at old Tiger Stadium which was a pitcher's park, 440ft = centerfield) against the best hitting team Yankees, and he posted those seasons for the stats above at age 38 and 40. Also consider that Schilling pitched in the JUICEBALL era and it's clear who was a better pitcher, even if you want to play the "American League" card.
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,892
10,713
147
Schilling always got up for big games. Here's one I remember to this day. It was 1997, the Phillies stunk to high heaven. They finished last in the NL East, 33 games out of first, and even a full ten games behind 4th place Montreal.

Schilling's only chance to shine on a national stage was an interleague game against the Yankees and their highly hyped Japanese bonus baby Hideki Irabu.


Schilling Shows the Yankees How It's Done

It was hot and humid at Veterans Stadium this afternoon. And much of the heat was coming from the pitcher's mound.

This was what the Yankees had envisioned when they gained the rights to Hideki Irabu and signed him to a $12.8 million contract. Only it was Curt Schilling, not Irabu, who not-so-generously piled on the helpings of heat. The Philadelphia right-hander, who consistently registered 97 and 98 miles an hour on the radar gun whenever he wanted to, struck out 16 Yankees in eight innings without walking a batter, as the Phillies beat the Yanks, 5-1, in only 2 hours 36 minutes.

[...]


Schilling's performance before 50,869 enthusiastic fans on Labor Day -- the biggest crowd at Veterans Stadium in more than two years -- made the afternoon miserable for the Yankees.

They grudgingly raved about what they had witnessed.

David Cone: ''Phenomenal. A remarkable blend of power and pinpoint control.''

Torre: ''He struck out 16 and didn't even come out for the ninth, so we tired him out. Schilling just chewed us up and spit us out today.''


He did it almost exclusively with fastballs, the last of which measured 97 m.p.h. to seal a four-pitch strikeout of Tino Martinez with two runners on. It was Schilling's 124th pitch. He pumped his fist as he headed to the dugout, well aware that with his 16th strikeout he had just established a career high.

''He'll just keep throwing fastballs until you hit it,'' said Martinez, who, like Paul O'Neill, struck out three times. ''He was not fooling me. He was basically throwing it for me to hit it and I wasn't hitting it. He had no reason to throw me breaking balls or changeups. He just threw fastballs right by me and I knew they were coming.''

And then there was Derek Jeter, whom Schilling struck out four times. ''You guys are talking to the wrong person,'' the shortstop said. ''You better talk to someone who saw his stuff.''

With the Phillies 31 games under .500 despite winning 21 of their last 31, this was Schilling's post-season.

''He's been saying all week: 'The Yankees! Irabu! Fifty thousand!' '' said catcher Mike Lieberthal,
who gave Schilling all the runs he would need with a two-out, two-run first-inning single.

There were boos when Philadelphia Manager Terry Francona pinch-hit for Schilling (14-10) in the bottom of the eighth after the right-hander had just struck out the side. But Schilling had made 137 pitches his last time out, which nearly postponed his start today.

When asked later if he wanted to come back out for the ninth, Schilling, who leads the major leagues in strikeouts with 280, said: ''I wanted to. I was aware that 19 strikeouts is the National League record. But it's more important for me to be pitching in four years.''

He led the major leagues in strikeouts that year. He led the major leagues in strikeouts the next year, as well.

When the bell rang for a big game, Curt Schilling always answered the call.
rose.gif





 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,892
10,713
147
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Note - Schilling also pitched in the NL for the majority of his career which is a more pitcher friendly league compared to Morris. If he had pitched his whole career in the AL, his numbers wouldn't have been worse.
Wrong, take their best two full seasons (Schilling only had 2 with Boston, the other two he was hurt) of 200 innings or more and compare ERA+ (higher is better):

Schilling's top two:
150 and 120.

Morris's top two:
127 and 126.

Take their best two WHIPS in the AL (lower is better):
Schill: 1.06 and 1.21
Morris: 1.15 and 1.16

Also consider that Schilling pitched at hitter friendly Fenway (Morris pitched at old Tiger Stadium which was a pitcher's park, 440ft = centerfield) against the best hitting team Yankees, and he posted those seasons for the stats above at age 38 and 40. Also consider that Schilling pitched in the JUICEBALL era and it's clear who was a better pitcher, even if you want to play the "American League" card.

Tits++

Career ERA+: Schilling 127, Morris 105

Schilling DESTROYS Morris.

ERA+ removes ALL season, league and ballpark bias.

Adjusted ERA+, often simply abbreviated to ERA+, is a statistic in baseball. It adjusts a pitcher's ERA according to the pitcher's ballpark (does it favor batters or pitchers) and the ERA of the pitcher's league. Average is set to be 100; a score above 100 indicates the pitcher performed better than average, below 100 indicates worse than average.

For instance, if the average ERA in the league is 4.00, and the pitcher is pitching in a ballpark that favors hitters, and his ERA is 3.80, then his ERA+ will be over 100. However, if the average ERA in the league is 3.00, and the pitcher is pitching in a ballpark favoring pitchers, and the pitcher's ERA is 3.20, then the pitcher's ERA+ will be below 100.

As a result, ERA+ can be used to compare pitchers across different run environments.