Red Sox Pitcher Curt Schilling retires

[Deeko]

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: zinfamous
Yeha, I don't think anyone in their right mind would think of him as a Philly. He was completely worthless there.

That's a stupid statement, based on haste and ignorance, and completely untrue.

Schilling's career stats:

1988 Baltimore Orioles 0 3 9.82 4 4 0 0 0 --- 14.2 22 19 16 3 1 10 4
1989 Baltimore Orioles 0 1 6.23 5 1 0 0 0 --- 8.2 10 6 6 2 0 3 6
1990 Baltimore Orioles 1 2 2.54 35 0 0 0 3 --- 46.0 38 13 13 1 0 19 32
1991 Houston Astros 3 5 3.81 56 0 0 0 8 --- 75.2 79 35 32 2 0 39 71
1992 Philadelphia Phillies 14 11 2.35 42 26 10 4 2 --- 226.1 165 67 59 11 1 59 147
1993 Philadelphia Phillies 16 7 4.02 34 34 7 2 0 --- 235.1 234 114 105 23 4 57 186
1994 Philadelphia Phillies 2 8 4.48 13 13 1 0 0 --- 82.1 87 42 41 10 3 28 58
1995 Philadelphia Phillies 7 5 3.57 17 17 1 0 0 --- 116.0 96 52 46 12 3 26 114
1996 Philadelphia Phillies 9 10 3.19 26 26 8 2 0 --- 183.1 149 69 65 16 3 50 182
1997 Philadelphia Phillies 17 11 2.97 35 35 7 2 0 --- 254.1 208 96 84 25 5 58 319
1998 Philadelphia Phillies 15 14 3.25 35 35 15 2 0 --- 268.2 236 101 97 23 6 61 300
1999 Philadelphia Phillies 15 6 3.54 24 24 8 1 0 0 180.1 159 74 71 25 5 44 152
2000 Arizona Diamondbacks 5 6 3.69 13 13 4 1 0 0 97.2 94 41 40 10 0 13 72
2000 Philadelphia Phillies 6 6 3.91 16 16 4 1 0 0 112.2 110 49 49 17 1 32 96
2001 Arizona Diamondbacks 22 6 2.98 35 35 6 1 0 0 256.2 237 86 85 37 1 39 293
2002 Arizona Diamondbacks 23 7 3.23 36 35 5 1 0 0 259.1 218 95 93 29 3 33 316
2003 Arizona Diamondbacks 8 9 2.95 24 24 3 2 0 0 168.0 144 58 55 17 3 32 194
2004 Boston Red Sox 21 6 3.26 32 32 3 0 0 0 226.2 206 84 82 23 5 35 203
2005 Boston Red Sox 8 8 5.69 32 11 0 0 9 11 93.1 121 59 59 12 3 22 87
2006 Boston Red Sox 15 7 3.97 31 31 0 0 0 0 204.0 220 90 90 28 3 28 183
2007 Boston Red Sox 9 8 3.87 24 24 1 1 0 0 151.0 165 68 65 21 2 23 101
Career Totals 216 146 3.46 569 436 83 20 22 --- 3261.0 2998 1318 1253 347 52 711 3116

Schilling played more years, and won more games as a Phillie. He was a two time all-star, and led the Phils into the 1993 World Series.

He was our ace, and COMPLETELY feared and respected around the league. To say he was "completely worthless there" is just plain wrong.

My favorite Schilling stat:

1994 AA-Reading 0 0 0.00 1 1 0 0 0 4.0 6 0 0 0 0 1 4

Hooray, Reading!

 

[Miramonti]

Absolutely.

Not the greatest accumulation of numbers but very respectable over a 20 year career. His staggering post-season success seals the deal, not to mention the lack of any suspicion that he's used PED's to achieve his success.

 

[lupi]

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: lupi
He was the starting pitcher in 2 of the greatest world series games I've ever seen; works for me.

I assume one of those games you are referring to is the sock? that was in the ALCS.

he pitched after that game too.

 

[Barfo]

no

 

[ballmode]

HOF baby

 

[Legendary]

I'm a Yankee fan, hate the Sox, hate Schilling, hate Boston, and I would vote him into HOF first ballot no question.

 

[Baked]

Who gives a shit about some trivial ratio, he doesn't have the wins and Ks. He's not going in.

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: lupi

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: lupi
He was the starting pitcher in 2 of the greatest world series games I've ever seen; works for me.

I assume one of those games you are referring to is the sock? that was in the ALCS.

he pitched after that game too.

yeah, but considering that the 4-game sweep of St Louis in the WS is barely remembered by anyone, I wouldn't classify any of those games as great...

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: zinfamous
Yeha, I don't think anyone in their right mind would think of him as a Philly. He was completely worthless there.

That's a stupid statement, based on haste and ignorance, and completely untrue.

Schilling's career stats:

1988 Baltimore Orioles 0 3 9.82 4 4 0 0 0 --- 14.2 22 19 16 3 1 10 4
1989 Baltimore Orioles 0 1 6.23 5 1 0 0 0 --- 8.2 10 6 6 2 0 3 6
1990 Baltimore Orioles 1 2 2.54 35 0 0 0 3 --- 46.0 38 13 13 1 0 19 32
1991 Houston Astros 3 5 3.81 56 0 0 0 8 --- 75.2 79 35 32 2 0 39 71
1992 Philadelphia Phillies 14 11 2.35 42 26 10 4 2 --- 226.1 165 67 59 11 1 59 147
1993 Philadelphia Phillies 16 7 4.02 34 34 7 2 0 --- 235.1 234 114 105 23 4 57 186
1994 Philadelphia Phillies 2 8 4.48 13 13 1 0 0 --- 82.1 87 42 41 10 3 28 58
1995 Philadelphia Phillies 7 5 3.57 17 17 1 0 0 --- 116.0 96 52 46 12 3 26 114
1996 Philadelphia Phillies 9 10 3.19 26 26 8 2 0 --- 183.1 149 69 65 16 3 50 182
1997 Philadelphia Phillies 17 11 2.97 35 35 7 2 0 --- 254.1 208 96 84 25 5 58 319
1998 Philadelphia Phillies 15 14 3.25 35 35 15 2 0 --- 268.2 236 101 97 23 6 61 300
1999 Philadelphia Phillies 15 6 3.54 24 24 8 1 0 0 180.1 159 74 71 25 5 44 152
2000 Arizona Diamondbacks 5 6 3.69 13 13 4 1 0 0 97.2 94 41 40 10 0 13 72
2000 Philadelphia Phillies 6 6 3.91 16 16 4 1 0 0 112.2 110 49 49 17 1 32 96
2001 Arizona Diamondbacks 22 6 2.98 35 35 6 1 0 0 256.2 237 86 85 37 1 39 293
2002 Arizona Diamondbacks 23 7 3.23 36 35 5 1 0 0 259.1 218 95 93 29 3 33 316
2003 Arizona Diamondbacks 8 9 2.95 24 24 3 2 0 0 168.0 144 58 55 17 3 32 194
2004 Boston Red Sox 21 6 3.26 32 32 3 0 0 0 226.2 206 84 82 23 5 35 203
2005 Boston Red Sox 8 8 5.69 32 11 0 0 9 11 93.1 121 59 59 12 3 22 87
2006 Boston Red Sox 15 7 3.97 31 31 0 0 0 0 204.0 220 90 90 28 3 28 183
2007 Boston Red Sox 9 8 3.87 24 24 1 1 0 0 151.0 165 68 65 21 2 23 101
Career Totals 216 146 3.46 569 436 83 20 22 --- 3261.0 2998 1318 1253 347 52 711 3116

Schilling played more years, and won more games as a Phillie. He was a two time all-star, and led the Phils into the 1993 World Series.

He was our ace, and COMPLETELY feared and respected around the league. To say he was "completely worthless there" is just plain wrong.

OK, let me rephrase:

Who gives a f*ck about the Phillies?

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: Baked
Who gives a shit about some trivial ratio, he doesn't have the wins and Ks. He's not going in.

You're the one with the stats stuck up yer ass, disrupting your natural flow and warping your perception.

I guess you wouldn't have voted for Sandy Koufax, either:

Sandy Koufax Pitching statistics
W L ERA G GS CG SHO SV IP H ER HR BB SO
165 87 2.76 397 314 137 40 9 2324.33 1754 713 204 817 2396

He only won 165 games, far less than Schilling, and only struck out 2,396, again, far less than Schilling.

Koufax was elected to the HOF in his first year of eligibility, as the youngest player ever to get in.

Career wins and SO's aren't the HOF be-all and end-all that you think they are.

 

[Deeko]

Originally posted by: zinfamous

OK, let me rephrase:

Who gives a f*ck about the Phillies?

Hmmm, you mean the current world series champions, who went to the World Series during the era we're discussing as well?

You're right...what a bunch of nobodies!

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: Baked
Who gives a shit about some trivial ratio, he doesn't have the wins and Ks. He's not going in.

You're the one with the stats stuck up yer ass, disrupting your natural flow and warping your perception.

I guess you wouldn't have voted for Sandy Koufax, either:

Sandy Koufax Pitching statistics
W L ERA G GS CG SHO SV IP H ER HR BB SO
165 87 2.76 397 314 137 40 9 2324.33 1754 713 204 817 2396

He only won 165 games, far less than Schilling, and only struck out 2,396, again, far less than Schilling.

Koufax was elected to the HOF in his first year of eligibility, as the youngest player ever to get in.

Career wins and SO's aren't the HOF be-all and end-all that you think they are.

a very good thing, actually, as it isn't directly tied to the pitcher's performance. It does matter for Cy Young, though, and it shouldn't.

Thankfully, Lyncecum was awarded the Cy Young last season despite his W/L and well-deserved. Hopefully it's a sign that the baseball demigods have released their stranglehold on arbitrary stats and will start to vote with reason in the future.

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: Deeko

Originally posted by: zinfamous

OK, let me rephrase:

Who gives a f*ck about the Phillies?

Hmmm, you mean the current world series champions, who went to the World Series during the era we're discussing as well?

You're right...what a bunch of nobodies!

didn't say they were nobodies, just said "who cares?" I know I stopped caring after Kruk left baseball. (as a player)

Though I must say that Rollins/Utley have made me very happy on my FB teams over the previous 3 seasons.

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: zinfamous
didn't say they were nobodies, just said "who cares?" I know I stopped caring after Kruk left baseball. (as a player)

Do0d, if you really did "care" about the Phillies while the Krukker played then you would have damn well known about Schilling's sterling Phillie career -- three time all star, back-to-back 300K seasons, shutting out the Jays in the 1993 WS -- and you would have never have confused a Philadelphia Phillie with a young horse, as you did in your other post:

Yeha, I don't think anyone in their right mind would think of him as a Philly.

Stop posing. Just saying.

 

[ElFenix]

obviously he should go in as an astro.

 

[DayLaPaul]

He's borderline. Based on pure stats, I think he'd be assed out. But taking into account his 2 World Series runs, how he basically carried his team both times, I'd say that swings the vote in his favor. He's in.

 

[summit]

based on stats alone, not a first ballot hall of famer.

 

[notposting]

Sure, as long as Jack Morris gets in.

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: zinfamous
didn't say they were nobodies, just said "who cares?" I know I stopped caring after Kruk left baseball. (as a player)

Do0d, if you really did "care" about the Phillies while the Krukker played then you would have damn well known about Schilling's sterling Phillie career -- three time all star, back-to-back 300K seasons, shutting out the Jays in the 1993 WS -- and you would have never have confused a Philadelphia Phillie with a young horse, as you did in your other post:

Yeha, I don't think anyone in their right mind would think of him as a Philly.

Stop posing. Just saying.

Please don't confuse me with a phillies fan. I used the term quite loosely. I cared to the extent that Kruk played for the phillies, b/c Kruk is so awesome. Never went further than that.


....I'm a Mets fan

 

[poncherelli2]

His '01 and '02 seasons were some of the most dominating back-to-back seasons in modern baseball. He logged over 500 regular season innings in those two years with over 600 Ks and only 72 BBs, not counting the postseasons.

I think Curt Schilling the person is kind of a tool, but he is no doubt one of the best pitchers I've seen in my lifetime. He gets bonus points for being such a workhorse, consistently over 200 IPs/ per season at an elite level of pitching.

Here's a good writeup: link

 

[Goosemaster]

HOF.

 

[MotF Bane]

HOF.

 

[Farang]

HasselHOF.

 

[BeauJangles]

Originally posted by: poncherelli2
His '01 and '02 seasons were some of the most dominating back-to-back seasons in modern baseball. He logged over 500 regular season innings in those two years with over 600 Ks and only 72 BBs, not counting the postseasons.

I think Curt Schilling the person is kind of a tool, but he is no doubt one of the best pitchers I've seen in my lifetime. He gets bonus points for being such a workhorse, consistently over 200 IPs/ per season at an elite level of pitching.

Here's a good writeup: link

:thumbsup: Schilling was great and should b a HOFer. I don't care about how many games he did or didn't win, that guy could pitch and, for an eight year period, he was one of the top-ten guys in baseball. Combine that with the fact he dominated in the postseason and led two teams to unlikely WS wins, and I don't see how you can keep him out.

Addendum: stat lines that should wet your panties.

Pedro 99 -- IP 213.3 BB 37 SO 317 ERA 2.07 ERA+ 243
Pedro 00 -- IP 217.0 BB 34 SO 284 ERA 1.74 ERA+ 291

Schill 01 -- IP 256.7 BB 39 SO 294 ERA 2.98 ERA+ 157
Schill 02 -- IP 259.3 BB 33 SO 316 ERA 3.23 ERA+ 142

Good god.

 

[SP33Demon]

Jason Stark had a good writeup on why Schill should be in the HOF:

Text

1. He was the greatest postseason starter of modern times
If this whole debate came down to bloody socks, we might have a tougher debate on our hands. But Curt Schilling whiffed the first five hitters he faced in the first postseason start of his life (1993 NLCS), then went on to make 19 career postseason starts. Here's what he did in those 19 trips to the hill:

? He went 11-2, with a 2.33 ERA. That's what.

? That's the highest postseason winning percentage of all time (.846) for a starter with more than six postseason decisions.

? And only one starting pitcher in history had a better postseason ERA than that (with 100 or more innings pitched) -- Christy Mathewson.

? And remember, if you toss out the 2004 ALCS game against the Yankees in which his ankle was just about exploding and a normal human would have been having surgery, he'd be 11-1, with a 1.86 ERA.

So if this man was not the greatest October starter of modern times, there would be an awfully short list of other pitchers in the conversation.

2. He should have won three Cy Youngs
When we did one of our famous "That's Debatable" chats last winter about Schilling's Hall credentials, people kept bringing this up -- that he "never won a Cy Young."

Well, that's true. But he finished second three times (2001, 2002, 2004). And all three of those years, it took historic seasons by the winner -- Randy Johnson in '01 and '02, Johan Santana in '04 -- to beat him.

Take a look at his insane numbers in those three seasons:

2001: 22-6, 2.98 ERA, 293 strikeouts.
2002: 23-7, 3.23 ERA, 316 strikeouts.
2004: 21-6, 3.26 ERA, 203 strikeouts in 226 2/3 IP, while pitching in the AL East.

So how many pitchers of his generation had three seasons that dominating without winning a Cy Young? That would be none. And ohbytheway, he could have won a fourth Cy Young in 1997 (when he went 17-11, 2.97 ERA, with 319 strikeouts in 254 1/3 innings) if he hadn't been pitching for the worst team in baseball (the Phillies).

3. He was a dominator -- for 15 years
OK, so it took Curt Schilling a while to get his act together. But from 1992, the year he moved into the rotation in Philadelphia and his light bulb went on, through 2007, the final season of his career, he was a dominating starting pitcher in every healthy season of his career -- bar none.

When I was doing the research for last winter's "That's Debatable" go-round, I compared his numbers to those of every right-handed starting pitcher for that entire decade and a half. Here's what I found:

? Schilling not only led all those right-handers in complete games (with 83), but only one other right-hander in the whole sport (Greg Maddux) was within 25 of him.

? Only Pedro Martinez had a better strikeout ratio than Schilling (8.59 K/9).

? Only Pedro and Roger Clemens had more strikeouts than Schilling (3,116), period.

? Just Pedro and Maddux had a better WHIP than Schilling (1.137).

? And nobody had a better strikeout-walk ratio. In fact, Schilling's K/BB ratio (4.38 whiffs for every walk) ranks No. 1 among all pitchers in the modern era.

All right, anybody want to argue those numbers? And remember, they don't even count October -- the month when he did his finest work of all.

So is Curt Schilling a slam-dunk Hall of Famer? Those 216 career wins say no. But the other numbers? They say yes. Absolutely yes.