Recall Republican Wisconsin Governor Walker status update thread

Page 106 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
That is not my view at all. I seriously don't understand how you don't know what my views are on this after so many times explaining it.

My view is that 'your side' and 'my side' do not exist in the aggregate. There are individual sources that are biased, like Fox News and MSNBC, but the ideological sources largely cancel each other out and the mild leanings of other media outlets turn everything into a system wide wash.

You are wedded to the idea that there are these sides which is why you think that the media is besieging you at all times. If you're forced to admit that there is no systemic action in this way your world view crumbles.
So when Dan Rather, CBS anchor, did a hit piece - by his words the first of a series of several "expose" pieces - on President Bush a few weeks before the 2004 election using forged documents whose lack of authenticity was painfully and pathetically obvious, that was unbiased? When ABC did an entire news day promoting Obamacare, no dissenting voices heard or even allowed to buy ad time, that was unbiased?

My world view is that the vast majority of the news media is fairly left wing. You'll never find, say, an alphabet channel's anchor secreting starring in Republican fundraisers, nor a large number of mainstream media reporters collaborating via secret web sites on how best to counter Democrat talking points. I don't feel at all victimized by this, because we have Fox News delivering the other side of the issues. Note that no conservatives are demanding that we all agree that the alphabets be denied access or that we all agree they aren't "real news". We don't even do that with MSNBC. If we have ONE news outlet that shares our fundamental views, we're happy; we can compete in the arena of ideas. This is our idea of a wash; we can get heard. Same with talk radio; we're not trying to ban liberal shows, just trying to keep liberals from banning ours.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
No matter how you twist and turn pretzel logic, you simply can't get away from the fact that journalists largely self identify as democrat or liberal. That fact alone renders everything else moot unless you're crazy enough to believe that their affiliation does not impact their journalism.
No matter how much you parrot the same talking point endlessly, it does not make it true. You continue to ignore the fact that the reporters are the burger-flippers in the news business. They are the workers. The editorial decisions about direction, content, tone, what to cover, etc., come from the editors and publishers, i.e., management. There is not a single word written by reporters that is not reviewed by editors before publishing.

Can you show that a majority of media management self-identify as liberal? If not, your entire premise is moot. It is just as brainless as blaming the kid with the paper hat for the way McDonald's is run.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
How much clearer could it possibly be:

Again, that in itself is evidence enough. Those on the far left think the media is "just right". The only explanation for that is that the media leans left. There is no other logical explanation.
That is hardly the only logical explanation. An equally logical explanation is thanks to years of brainwashing, the conservative half (or so) of America faithfully believes the media is liberal. After all, that's what they've been told over and over and over. They've even read it on the intarwebs, so it must be true.

Of course there are some of us who believe the MSM is biased, but not so much to the left or even the right. Instead, they are corporatist, biased towards profit and supporting the status quo. They publish that which is profitable, which means lots of scandalous fluff and Shocking!!!! exposes of whatever they can find or invent. That's the real failing of our media today, not a partisan bias.


So, 50% of (self described) independents/moderates think the media is too liberal.

Yet, it's all in their heads. All a figment of their imagination, the conservatives, the moderates, they're all wrong, eskimospy said so.
Yes, according to scientific studies of media bias, they are all wrong. I find it so telling that you accept as "fact" the one study supporting your persecution complex, the one showing reporters are liberal, yet ignore all those contradicting you. Eskimospy is exactly right. Your beliefs come from blind faith, not from facts and evidence.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
One more thing about media bias and I'll let Eskimospy rest. UCLA and the University of Missouri did an interesting study of news outlets in 2005. Rather than the usual study of subjectively grading content or the Pew Journalism Center method of grading overall tone, negative or positive, Tim Groseclose and Jeffrey Milyo first took the Americans for Democratic Action's standard gauge of a politician's leanings based on his votes. The ADA number is based on position relative to the average American voter, as determined by his politicians' votes weighted by population. (For instance, a California Senator's votes are weighted 66 times that of a Wyoming Senator because he represents and is elected by 66 times as many people.) They then examined those politicians' political speeches and noted which think tanks and other authorities they cited. Next, they compared various outlets' hard news stories for the same citations. Finally, they graded each media outlet by how its news stories' citations aligned with politicians' citations, giving each news outlet a composite grade based on the closest group of politicians' ADA scores. In other words, they graded the major news outlets by comparing their news stories to politicians' speeches, the assumption being that left-leaning politicians and news outlets will tend to cite left-leaning think tanks and experts whereas right-leaning politicians and news outlets will tend to cite right-leaning think tanks and experts. Obviously, a left-leaning politician will not often cite the NRA or the Heritage Foundation, nor will a right-leaning politician will often cite the NAACP or the Brookings Institute. http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/Media-Bias-Is-Real-Finds-UCLA-6664.aspx


They found that of the twenty major news outlets studied, eighteen were left of the average American voter, while only two, the Fox News' "Special Report with Brit Hume" and the Washington Times, were right of the average American voter. They also found that "NewsHour With Jim Lehrer", CNN's "NewsNight With Aaron Brown" and ABC's "Good Morning America" were the three most centrist outlets. Fox News' "Special Report with Brit Hume" was fourth most centrist, followed very closely by ABC's "World News Tonight" and NBC's "Nightly News" on the left of center. (Though the Drudge Report was actually fifth most centrist, being slightly farther left than Brit Hume was to the right.)

Of the 20 major media outlets studied, 18 scored left of center, with CBS' "Evening News," The New York Times and the Los Angeles Times ranking second, third and fourth most liberal behind the news pages of The Wall Street Journal.

Only Fox News' "Special Report With Brit Hume" and The Washington Times scored right of the average U.S. voter.

The most centrist outlet proved to be the "NewsHour With Jim Lehrer." CNN's "NewsNight With Aaron Brown" and ABC's "Good Morning America" were a close second and third.

"Our estimates for these outlets, we feel, give particular credibility to our efforts, as three of the four moderators for the 2004 presidential and vice-presidential debates came from these three news outlets — Jim Lehrer, Charlie Gibson and Gwen Ifill," Groseclose said. "If these newscasters weren't centrist, staffers for one of the campaign teams would have objected and insisted on other moderators."

The fourth most centrist outlet was "Special Report With Brit Hume" on Fox News, which often is cited by liberals as an egregious example of a right-wing outlet. While this news program proved to be right of center, the study found ABC's "World News Tonight" and NBC's "Nightly News" to be left of center. All three outlets were approximately equidistant from the center, the report found.

"If viewers spent an equal amount of time watching Fox's 'Special Report' as ABC's 'World News' and NBC's 'Nightly News,' then they would receive a nearly perfectly balanced version of the news," said Milyo, an associate professor of economics and public affairs at the University of Missouri at Columbia.

Five news outlets — "NewsHour With Jim Lehrer," ABC's "Good Morning America," CNN's "NewsNight With Aaron Brown," Fox News' "Special Report With Brit Hume" and the Drudge Report — were in a statistical dead heat in the race for the most centrist news outlet. Of the print media, USA Today was the most centrist.

An additional feature of the study shows how each outlet compares in political orientation with actual lawmakers. The news pages of The Wall Street Journal scored a little to the left of the average American Democrat, as determined by the average ADA score of all Democrats in Congress (85 versus 84). With scores in the mid-70s, CBS' "Evening News" and The New York Times looked similar to Sen. Joe Lieberman, D-Conn., who has an ADA score of 74.

Most of the outlets were less liberal than Lieberman but more liberal than former Sen. John Breaux, D-La. Those media outlets included the Drudge Report, ABC's "World News Tonight," NBC's "Nightly News," USA Today, NBC's "Today Show," Time magazine, U.S. News & World Report, Newsweek, NPR's "Morning Edition," CBS' "Early Show" and The Washington Post.

Since Groseclose and Milyo were more concerned with bias in news reporting than opinion pieces, which are designed to stake a political position, they omitted editorials and Op‑Eds from their tallies. This is one reason their study finds The Wall Street Journal more liberal than conventional wisdom asserts.

Another finding that contradicted conventional wisdom was that the Drudge Report was slightly left of center.

"One thing people should keep in mind is that our data for the Drudge Report was based almost entirely on the articles that the Drudge Report lists on other Web sites," said Groseclose. "Very little was based on the stories that Matt Drudge himself wrote. The fact that the Drudge Report appears left of center is merely a reflection of the overall bias of the media."

Yet another finding that contradicted conventional wisdom relates to National Public Radio, often cited by conservatives as an egregious example of a liberal news outlet. But according to the UCLA-University of Missouri study, it ranked eighth most liberal of the 20 that the study examined.

"By our estimate, NPR hardly differs from the average mainstream news outlet," Groseclose said. "Its score is approximately equal to those of Time, Newsweek and U.S. News & World Report and its score is slightly more conservative than The Washington Post's. If anything, government‑funded outlets in our sample have a slightly lower average ADA score (61), than the private outlets in our sample (62.8)."

The researchers took numerous steps to safeguard against bias — or the appearance of same — in the work, which took close to three years to complete. They went to great lengths to ensure that as many research assistants supported Democratic candidate Al Gore in the 2000 election as supported President George Bush. They also sought no outside funding, a rarity in scholarly research.

"No matter the results, we feared our findings would've been suspect if we'd received support from any group that could be perceived as right- or left-leaning, so we consciously decided to fund this project only with our own salaries and research funds that our own universities provided," Groseclose said.

The results break new ground.

"Past researchers have been able to say whether an outlet is conservative or liberal, but no one has ever compared media outlets to lawmakers," Groseclose said. "Our work gives a precise characterization of the bias and relates it to known commodity — politicians."

Now obviously this won't satisfy Eskimospy - he knows that only Fox News and MSNBC are significantly biased - but it tells the rest of us pretty much what the rest of us long ago concluded from experience - that Fox News (as a news outlet, not it's far right opinion shows) is mildly right of center just as ABC and NBC are mildly left of center and CBS is foaming moonbat crazy leftist (second most liberal after the Wall Street Journal.) (Now of course we also have MSNBC - but then it was a study of major news media outlets . . .) Note also that this is only news articles; editorials and labeled opinion pieces were not considered. If you are unable to tell that Sean Hannity isn't news, your mileage may vary.

The actual published study is here. http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/polisci/faculty/groseclose/pdfs/MediaBias.pdf
If you Google it, you'll surely drown in a turbulent river of foamy progressive rage and denial. If there's one thing proggies know (and let's face it, proggies know everything - that's why they are so suited to run your life) it's that only proggies can tell you if proggies are biased.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
One more thing about media bias and I'll let Eskimospy rest. UCLA and the University of Missouri did an interesting study of news outlets in 2005. Rather than the usual study of subjectively grading content or the Pew Journalism Center method of grading overall tone, negative or positive, Tim Groseclose and Jeffrey Milyo first took the Americans for Democratic Action's standard gauge of a politician's leanings based on his votes. ...
We had a long discussion about that survey around that time. As I remember it, a major flaw in their methodology is they essentially assumed that Congress provides balanced representation of both liberal and conservative views. It also presumes that citing an organization correlates with endorsing that organization's bias.

Edit: If you have any objective interest in understanding and evaluating this study, here is a good counterpoint: http://www.brendan-nyhan.com/blog/2005/12/the_problems_wi.html . In it, one of the study's authors acknowledges that if certain assumptions they used are not true, specifically those related to how a jouralist selects sources to cite compared to Congressmen, it could cause their methodology to overstate the bias they found.
 
Last edited:

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
Some people believe the media has a liberal bias and cannot be convinced otherwise.

Some people believe the media does not have a liberal bias and cannot be convinced otherwise.

It is what it is. Move on with your lives.

There, I just saved this thread 10 pages of redundant posts! ;)
 
Jan 25, 2011
17,023
9,475
146
Some people believe the media has a liberal bias and cannot be convinced otherwise.

Some people believe the media does not have a liberal bias and cannot be convinced otherwise.

It is what it is. Move on with your lives.

There, I just saved this thread 10 pages of redundant posts! ;)

Ahem... Move On has a liberal bias.
 

DCal430

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2011
6,020
9
81
WOW this Robocall at told people who signed the petition that they don't need to vote reeks of voter fraud to me. Someone needs to investigate this.
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,788
566
126
WOW this Robocall at told people who signed the petition that they don't need to vote reeks of voter fraud to me. Someone needs to investigate this.

It's only voter fraud if there's a chance that a democratic candidate would benefit from it. there will be no investigation.
 

*kjm

Platinum Member
Oct 11, 1999
2,222
6
81
WOW this Robocall at told people who signed the petition that they don't need to vote reeks of voter fraud to me. Someone needs to investigate this.

If it did happen you would have to be brain dead to fall for it! 98% had a side and voted that way just give it up:rolleyes:
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
101
That is hardly the only logical explanation. An equally logical explanation is thanks to years of brainwashing, the conservative half (or so) of America faithfully believes the media is liberal.

Reading FAIL. From the gallup poll: 57% of democrats think the media is "just right". Democrats largely feel the media is "just right", while 50% of independents and a large majority of republicans feel the media is too liberal. There is no other logical conclusion than that the media in general is more aligned with the views of democrats and liberals.

Yes, according to scientific studies of media bias, they are all wrong. I find it so telling that you accept as "fact" the one study supporting your persecution complex, the one showing reporters are liberal, yet ignore all those contradicting you. Eskimospy is exactly right. Your beliefs come from blind faith, not from facts and evidence.

Media lean is like beauty, it's largely in the eyes of the beholder, it's all a matter of perspective. The fact that most democrats / liberals feel that the media reflects their views while independents and conservatives don't is rock solid evidence that the media leans left.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Reading FAIL. From the gallup poll: 57% of democrats think the media is "just right". Democrats largely feel the media is "just right", while 50% of independents and a large majority of republicans feel the media is too liberal. There is no other logical conclusion than that the media in general is more aligned with the views of democrats and liberals.
Yes, you are indeed failing at reading comprehension. I fully comprehended your fanciful, self-serving rationalization that there is no other logical conclusion. The problem is you are wrong. There are other logical conclusions, including the one I gave: years of constant RNC propaganda (i.e., lying) about the "liberal media" have brainwashed a great number of weak-minded Americans.


Media lean is like beauty, it's largely in the eyes of the beholder, it's all a matter of perspective.
Yet some of the studies attempt to compensate for that, applying more objective criteria to evaluate media bias. Unsurprisingly, their findings do not support your cries of victimhood.


The fact that most democrats / liberals feel that the media reflects their views
False. That's not what that survey said at all. It said they feel the level of bias was "just about right", i.e., neither too liberal nor too conservative. That is not the same.


while independents and conservatives don't is rock solid evidence that the media leans left.
No, you are still factually wrong. There was a time when much of the world believed the world was flat. It was not because the world was actually flat, but because everybody kept saying it was. It was a giant echo chamber for disinformation. When the RNC propaganda machine spends 30 years screeching how badly they're persecuted by the big, bad, liberal media, a lot of people start to believe it, whether it's true or not. Most people don't dig into the claims, don't look at the studies, don't reflect on the incongruity of those who own America crying about how downtrodden they are. Most people just hear the lie bleated endlessly and subconsciously come to believe it must be the truth.

But that's OK. Feel free to keep screeching at the kid in the paper hat at McDonald's. The RNC appreciates your faith. Well, not so much appreciates, but more like "exploits". They need that army of compliant serfs to support them in serving the elite 0.01%.
 

Sephire

Golden Member
Feb 9, 2011
1,689
3
76
ss-120607-weekly-01.ss_full.jpg
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
101
The problem is you are wrong. There are other logical conclusions, including the one I gave: years of constant RNC propaganda (i.e., lying) about the "liberal media" have brainwashed a great number of weak-minded Americans.

Sorry, still complete logic fail. In your delusional world, a big majority of democrats and liberals have been brainwashed by the RNC to like the media? To think that the media is "just right"?

Yet some of the studies attempt to compensate for that, applying more objective criteria to evaluate media bias. Unsurprisingly, their findings do not support your cries of victimhood.

Unsurprising indeed because the subject matter is inherently fully subjective. As I said, someone saying "my expert research has determined that movie A is better than movie B" is completely meaningless in determining how good movie A or B are.

You can join eskimo in the pretzel twisting logic box :biggrin: You can not escape the FACT that democrats and liberals generally believe the media is "just about right". The media more closely reflects their views, ergo, the media leans to the left. No amount of logic-twisting changes that.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
I was up relaxing in Lake Geneva, WI, yesterday afternoon, and you know what? Nobody was in a panic. Nobody was running for their lives. Nobody was frightened. Everyone was enjoying the beautiful day.

The people of Wisconsin *are* happy.

I suppose if by "decent people" you were referring to "elected Democrat officials" then yes, they will fleeing the state in droves like they have done before.

And I smiled as I entered Wisconsin reading the sign "Wisconsin Welcomes You."

Same here. I am very happy to be a WI resident now. My house is beautiful, Lake Michigan is awesome(view from my back yard) and the people here are just how I remembered them from when I lived here. Hard working people who don't want to put up with shit. Meh - it's nice to see that the blue areas in 2008 for BHO were Red for Walker.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Some people believe the media has a liberal bias and cannot be convinced otherwise.

Some people believe the media does not have a liberal bias and cannot be convinced otherwise.

It is what it is. Move on with your lives.

There, I just saved this thread 10 pages of redundant posts! ;)
LOL Agreed.

WOW this Robocall at told people who signed the petition that they don't need to vote reeks of voter fraud to me. Someone needs to investigate this.
Agreed. If this really happened, someone needs to go to jail.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Sorry, still complete logic fail. In your delusional world, a big majority of democrats and liberals have been brainwashed by the RNC to like the media? To think that the media is "just right"?
This is where insults come in handy, to respond properly to somebody who takes everything someone says and intentionally perverts it into something very different. Not everyone is as gullible or blindly partisan as you are. Some people are capable of thinking for themselves, of using critical thinking skills to recognize and reject self-serving propaganda. I am very sorry this concept escapes your grasp, but I cannot help you.


Unsurprising indeed because the subject matter is inherently fully subjective. As I said, someone saying "my expert research has determined that movie A is better than movie B" is completely meaningless in determining how good movie A or B are.
And yet another logical fallacy when you have no useful response. There are, in fact, reasonably objective methodologies for determining bias. That was my point. Moreover, your movie analogy is simply wrong. That's not how it happened. You might understand that had you made any material effort to corroborate your faith with reality.


You can join eskimo in the pretzel twisting logic box :biggrin: You can not escape the FACT that democrats and liberals generally believe the media is "just about right".
I'm not trying to "escape" that sweetie. Indeed, I explicitly stated that to correct your false spin on those results.


The media more closely reflects their views, ergo, the media leans to the left. No amount of logic-twisting changes that.
No doubt that's what you believe. You are wrong, of course. That is certainly one possible interpretation of the survey, but it is equally certainly not the only possible interpretation. Unfortunately, Gallup didn't dig more deeply to try to explain the rationale behind the answers. They did not corroborate your twist on it, nor did they refute it. What you assert as fact is, once again, only your emotionally-driven beliefs.

I'll offer one example, mostly for others in the thread because I have no confidence you are able to consider it. Had I answered this survey, asking whether I believed the media are more biased to the left or to the right, I likely would have answered they're about right ... given that specific constraint, that I am to consider left vs. right bias. Does that mean the media reflects my views? No, not at all. As I said earlier in this thread, I see the media as quite biased. They are biased towards ratings (i.e., money). The are biased towards preserving the status quo. They substitute celebrity fluff and immaterial scandals for depth and meaningful content. So no, they do not reflect my views. They are not particularly biased towards the left or the right, however, an opinion supported by objective studies of media bias.

Finally, I notice you keep dodging the analogy of the kid in the paper hat at McDonald's. Does this mean you recognize the foolishness of asserting that reporters, the peons of the news business, are the ones who set direction and determine content? It would be a minor concession, but it would demonstrate you are capable of considering and accepting evidence that challenges your faith.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
101
Not everyone is as gullible or blindly partisan as you are.

Pot, meet Kettle. How ironic.


Some people are capable of thinking for themselves, of using critical thinking skills to recognize and reject self-serving propaganda.

Yep, clearly you're not one of them.

I'm not trying to "escape" that sweetie.

Sweetie? Sorry, you must have me confused with someone else who plays for the other team ;)

That is certainly one possible interpretation of the survey, but it is equally certainly not the only possible interpretation.

It's the only logical one, the only plausible one that would make sense to anyone who isn't liberal hack.

Had I answered this survey, asking whether I believed the media are more biased to the left or to the right, I likely would have answered they're about right ...

Thanks for once again reinforcing my point. You're a lib, and you think the media is just right. That means the media reflects your views more than it doesn't. Given your political views, that means the media leans left. Thanks for the assist!

Finally, I notice you keep dodging the analogy of the kid in the paper hat at McDonald's.

I'm not dodging anything, it's simply an idiotic analogy and anyone that would think it to be an apt one is clearly not capable of much rational thought.
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
1
0
One more thing about media bias and I'll let Eskimospy rest. UCLA and the University of Missouri did an interesting study of news outlets in 2005. Rather than the usual study of subjectively grading content or the Pew Journalism Center method of grading overall tone, negative or positive, Tim Groseclose and Jeffrey Milyo first took the Americans for Democratic Action's standard gauge of a politician's leanings based on his votes. The ADA number is based on position relative to the average American voter, as determined by his politicians' votes weighted by population. (For instance, a California Senator's votes are weighted 66 times that of a Wyoming Senator because he represents and is elected by 66 times as many people.) They then examined those politicians' political speeches and noted which think tanks and other authorities they cited. Next, they compared various outlets' hard news stories for the same citations. Finally, they graded each media outlet by how its news stories' citations aligned with politicians' citations, giving each news outlet a composite grade based on the closest group of politicians' ADA scores. In other words, they graded the major news outlets by comparing their news stories to politicians' speeches, the assumption being that left-leaning politicians and news outlets will tend to cite left-leaning think tanks and experts whereas right-leaning politicians and news outlets will tend to cite right-leaning think tanks and experts. Obviously, a left-leaning politician will not often cite the NRA or the Heritage Foundation, nor will a right-leaning politician will often cite the NAACP or the Brookings Institute. http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/Media-Bias-Is-Real-Finds-UCLA-6664.aspx


They found that of the twenty major news outlets studied, eighteen were left of the average American voter, while only two, the Fox News' "Special Report with Brit Hume" and the Washington Times, were right of the average American voter. They also found that "NewsHour With Jim Lehrer", CNN's "NewsNight With Aaron Brown" and ABC's "Good Morning America" were the three most centrist outlets. Fox News' "Special Report with Brit Hume" was fourth most centrist, followed very closely by ABC's "World News Tonight" and NBC's "Nightly News" on the left of center. (Though the Drudge Report was actually fifth most centrist, being slightly farther left than Brit Hume was to the right.)



Now obviously this won't satisfy Eskimospy - he knows that only Fox News and MSNBC are significantly biased - but it tells the rest of us pretty much what the rest of us long ago concluded from experience - that Fox News (as a news outlet, not it's far right opinion shows) is mildly right of center just as ABC and NBC are mildly left of center and CBS is foaming moonbat crazy leftist (second most liberal after the Wall Street Journal.) (Now of course we also have MSNBC - but then it was a study of major news media outlets . . .) Note also that this is only news articles; editorials and labeled opinion pieces were not considered. If you are unable to tell that Sean Hannity isn't news, your mileage may vary.

The actual published study is here. http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/polisci/faculty/groseclose/pdfs/MediaBias.pdf
If you Google it, you'll surely drown in a turbulent river of foamy progressive rage and denial. If there's one thing proggies know (and let's face it, proggies know everything - that's why they are so suited to run your life) it's that only proggies can tell you if proggies are biased.

Thanks weredude, an excellent post and an informative article.