Rebel flag ... for or against?

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Originally posted by: piasabird
This is just a freedom of speech issue. Maybe all African Americans should put a white flag with a raised black fist. Some kind of Black Pride Flag.

If it is legal to burn the US Flag, who cares about some flag that represented the south? A lot of this is about the right that states have to defy the federal government and protest too much government intervention in our lives and in the affairs of individual states. I dont think southern states should care what some jerk in New York thinks about the south.

I think the a** F***s should care. The northeast is the economic and intellectual center of this country. What the hell has the south ever done except bring misery to others?

Especially Texas. Nothing grows there, its hot as hell, and the people are annoying. Complain about welfare LOL. We pay for most of these states.

Bwahaha... Yeah, North Carolina is towing Texas in its magnificent wake.

 

[ExpertNovice]

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Originally posted by: piasabird
This is just a freedom of speech issue. Maybe all African Americans should put a white flag with a raised black fist. Some kind of Black Pride Flag.

If it is legal to burn the US Flag, who cares about some flag that represented the south? A lot of this is about the right that states have to defy the federal government and protest too much government intervention in our lives and in the affairs of individual states. I dont think southern states should care what some jerk in New York thinks about the south.

I think the a** F***s should care. The northeast is the economic and intellectual center of this country. What the hell has the south ever done except bring misery to others?

Especially Texas. Nothing grows there, its hot as hell, and the people are annoying. Complain about welfare LOL. We pay for most of these states.

Nope.. no elitism there. ROFL

 

[Proletariat]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Originally posted by: piasabird
This is just a freedom of speech issue. Maybe all African Americans should put a white flag with a raised black fist. Some kind of Black Pride Flag.

If it is legal to burn the US Flag, who cares about some flag that represented the south? A lot of this is about the right that states have to defy the federal government and protest too much government intervention in our lives and in the affairs of individual states. I dont think southern states should care what some jerk in New York thinks about the south.

I think the a** F***s should care. The northeast is the economic and intellectual center of this country. What the hell has the south ever done except bring misery to others?

Especially Texas. Nothing grows there, its hot as hell, and the people are annoying. Complain about welfare LOL. We pay for most of these states.

Bwahaha... Yeah, North Carolina is towing Texas in its magnificent wake.

Well you're not annoying but a lot of Texans I've met are.

 

[Proletariat]

Originally posted by: ExpertNovice

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Originally posted by: piasabird
This is just a freedom of speech issue. Maybe all African Americans should put a white flag with a raised black fist. Some kind of Black Pride Flag.

If it is legal to burn the US Flag, who cares about some flag that represented the south? A lot of this is about the right that states have to defy the federal government and protest too much government intervention in our lives and in the affairs of individual states. I dont think southern states should care what some jerk in New York thinks about the south.

I think the a** F***s should care. The northeast is the economic and intellectual center of this country. What the hell has the south ever done except bring misery to others?

Especially Texas. Nothing grows there, its hot as hell, and the people are annoying. Complain about welfare LOL. We pay for most of these states.

Nope.. no elitism there. ROFL

In the traditional Repub fashion -

Tell me what isn't true about the above?

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Originally posted by: ExpertNovice

Originally posted by: Proletariat
I think the a** F***s should care. The northeast is the economic and intellectual center of this country. What the hell has the south ever done except bring misery to others?

Especially Texas. Nothing grows there, its hot as hell, and the people are annoying. Complain about welfare LOL. We pay for most of these states.

Nope.. no elitism there. ROFL

In the traditional Repub fashion -

Tell me what isn't true about the above?

Texas produces 20.2% of the US's cotton.
Why is "hot as hell" any worse than "colder than a witch's tit?"
Who do you think would rank as more rude and annoying in a poll, NYers or Texans?

 

[Proletariat]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Originally posted by: ExpertNovice

Originally posted by: Proletariat
I think the a** F***s should care. The northeast is the economic and intellectual center of this country. What the hell has the south ever done except bring misery to others?

Especially Texas. Nothing grows there, its hot as hell, and the people are annoying. Complain about welfare LOL. We pay for most of these states.

Nope.. no elitism there. ROFL

In the traditional Repub fashion -

Tell me what isn't true about the above?

Texas produces 20.2% of the US's cotton.
Why is "hot as hell" any worse than "colder than a witch's tit?"
Who do you think would rank as more rude and annoying in a poll, NYers or Texans?

Cotton is fine. But you very well know that we have the stock market, central government, museums and good bars up here. Why do you think Al-Qaeda attacking DC and NYC?

NYers in general do come off as rude but they will help you out in need dude. They just know what they want to do and go straight for it. The Texans I have met for the most part - are very uneducated and talk a LOT about cars. Thats all well and good but once the subject changes to something more complex they are at a loss. They are also very herd like. I think your personality has been molded by Texas. If you came up here I bet you would become a liberal, pinko, educated snob 🙂

That said you have a point it is cold in the northeast (well right now its like 95 degrees but the winters suck) and cold vs. hot is all personal preference.

 

[ExpertNovice]

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Originally posted by: ExpertNovice

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Originally posted by: piasabird
This is just a freedom of speech issue. Maybe all African Americans should put a white flag with a raised black fist. Some kind of Black Pride Flag.

If it is legal to burn the US Flag, who cares about some flag that represented the south? A lot of this is about the right that states have to defy the federal government and protest too much government intervention in our lives and in the affairs of individual states. I dont think southern states should care what some jerk in New York thinks about the south.

I think the a** F***s should care. The northeast is the economic and intellectual center of this country. What the hell has the south ever done except bring misery to others?

Especially Texas. Nothing grows there, its hot as hell, and the people are annoying. Complain about welfare LOL. We pay for most of these states.

Nope.. no elitism there. ROFL

In the traditional Repub fashion -

Tell me what isn't true about the above?

You stole a car. Now, prove you didn't.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: Sheik Yerbouti
It's representative of a past that condoned slavery, lynchings and the seperation of this nation, why would you consider any of that with any type of pride whatsoever?

Why doesn't the current US flag represent that same past? 😕

Many of our founding fathers were not opposed to slavery. Perhaps we should be ashamed of our Constitution?

While you're semi-accurate, one doesn't have the same knee-jerk reaction to the US flag as one would the confederate flag. I don't think slavery, klan, etc, when I see the US flag, but I would go out on a limb and think that if someone waves a confederate flag around, those thoughts would more than likely occur.
It's the iconic reaction the general population has to it.

 

[jimkyser]

Originally posted by: ExpertNovice

Edited to add: Your Poll should include it is or is not for areas in the U.S.A. that are not "North" or "South." I live in Texas and it is not part of the "South."

Not to be nitpicky and all. Texas may be different in many ways from the rest of what is called 'The South', but I think that being one of the states that joined the Confederacy pretty much makes it part of 'The South' when it comes to discussions about the Civil War. And since the flag in question was used by certain Conferate groups during the Civil War, this would be one of those discussions.

 

[johnnobts]

I agree with you, but not the last part. The people in the south should care what people in NY think; I used to live in NY and we have our muskets lock, loaded, and ready to come down laying the smack on them again, should they get out of hand thinking they will rise again


Careful now, us southerners own a lot of guns too... this is a state issue. if the state wants to keep the rebel flag as part of their state flag, let them vote on it. personally i don't think having yankee, liberal, money-hungry, black establishment mouth-pieces like al sharpton and jesse help the cause of removing the rebel flag.

i don't have a problem with the rebel flag. my ancestor, lt. gen. john pemberton who lost the battle of vicksburg fought for the confederacy, and didn't even own any slaves... i choose not to drive around "dukes of hazzard" style with a rebel pride bumper sticker b/c i know that some arrogant black kid might be tempted to key my car or chunk a rock through a window. of course if i saw someone with a "black power" or "black rage" bumper sticker, I would wait for them to show up at their car and point and laugh at them for truly being racists.

 

[piasabird]

oops

 

[jimkyser]

Originally posted by: johnnobts
Careful now, us southerners own a lot of guns too... this is a state issue. if the state wants to keep the rebel flag as part of their state flag, let them vote on it. personally i don't think having yankee, liberal, money-hungry, black establishment mouth-pieces like al sharpton and jesse help the cause of removing the rebel flag.

My only issue with the inclusion of the rebel flag in the state flags of the southern states is that if it were truely to commemorate the soldiers why didn't it get added until the 1940s or 1950s, almost 100 years later? It seems the reason it was added was the black community was starting to organize the early parts of the equal rights movement in the aftermath of WWII and the changes were more a response to that.

I also don't see any reason for a yankee with no southern roots to display the rebel flag except for in a racist manner.

 

[ExpertNovice]

Originally posted by: jimkyser

Originally posted by: johnnobts
Careful now, us southerners own a lot of guns too... this is a state issue. if the state wants to keep the rebel flag as part of their state flag, let them vote on it. personally i don't think having yankee, liberal, money-hungry, black establishment mouth-pieces like al sharpton and jesse help the cause of removing the rebel flag.

My only issue with the inclusion of the rebel flag in the state flags of the southern states is that if it were truely to commemorate the soldiers why didn't it get added until the 1940s or 1950s, almost 100 years later? It seems the reason it was added was the black community was starting to organize the early parts of the equal rights movement in the aftermath of WWII and the changes were more a response to that.

I also don't see any reason for a yankee with no southern roots to display the rebel flag except for in a racist manner.

Agreed. You would have to ask the Democrats why they began adding the rebel flags to buildings and flag poles. I happen to believe you have the correct answer.

 

[piasabird]

Time for a reality check. There can not be anyone in the United States that really thinks slavery is, was, or will ever be a good thing. Hopefully, we have at least learned that lesson. The Civil war was bloody and was fought for possibly various reasons. However, to deny it was at least partly due to slavery and those who benefitted from slavery is a bit far sided. I know that people on the left and right coast think that they know what is right for the rest of the country. However, the history of the norheast states and the states like Texas, Alabama, Georgia and Louisiana are equally valid. Southerners have to have a way of remembering what their forefathers did and how they died. If the Rebel Flag helps them to remember their own history, then I think they have a right to fly it. The Rebel Flag is a symbol of rebellion and many young people from the south or other places identify with being a rebel and fighting against the system.

When you go to see dukes of Hazard, if you go to see it, you will not see people who remember slavery fondly, you will only see people who identify with the south and live proud lives. The Rebel flag has become more than just fighting for slavery. Those that fought for the south did not all own slaves, but they fought anyway. I cant begin to understand why the war had to be fought or why anyone could possibly defend slavery, but I will defend their right to fly the rebel flag. I have never met a slave, and I cant possibly understand what that means, but people can have different views and still be Americans.

The Federal Government also tried to put down a supposed rebellion in the territory of Utah. They sent troops to quell an insurrection in the territory of Utah that did not even exist. It was met with opposition of a peacful resistance and an eventual peaceful solution was found. There was no revolt against the USA in the territory of Utah, but the Federal Government still had to attempt to start a war there. This is how pompous the federal government was back then.

Never forget tyranny!

 

[jimkyser]

Originally posted by: ExpertNovice

Originally posted by: jimkyser

Originally posted by: johnnobts
Careful now, us southerners own a lot of guns too... this is a state issue. if the state wants to keep the rebel flag as part of their state flag, let them vote on it. personally i don't think having yankee, liberal, money-hungry, black establishment mouth-pieces like al sharpton and jesse help the cause of removing the rebel flag.

My only issue with the inclusion of the rebel flag in the state flags of the southern states is that if it were truely to commemorate the soldiers why didn't it get added until the 1940s or 1950s, almost 100 years later? It seems the reason it was added was the black community was starting to organize the early parts of the equal rights movement in the aftermath of WWII and the changes were more a response to that.

I also don't see any reason for a yankee with no southern roots to display the rebel flag except for in a racist manner.

Agreed. You would have to ask the Democrats why they began adding the rebel flags to buildings and flag poles. I happen to believe you have the correct answer.

That said, I just did some checking and Mississippi added what they called the 'union cross' to their flag in 1894. Georgia added it in 1955 and South Carolina started flying the 'Stars and Bars' along with the 'Stars and Stripes' and the SC state flag in 1962. So I have no problem with Mississippi's contention that they did it to honor the war dead. Reconstruction era controls of the south by the north wouldn't have allowed them the freedom to do it much earlier. Georgia and South Carolina, more than liekly did it for reasons of racism.

Remember the Dixiecrats that ran the Democratic party in the south until the '60s held power somewhat because they used the Republican party's ending of slavery as political capital. Most of those Dixiecrats became Republicans during the '70s and '80s. Hence the major swing in politics in the south since then from mostly Dems to mostly Repubs.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Originally posted by: piasabird
This is just a freedom of speech issue. Maybe all African Americans should put a white flag with a raised black fist. Some kind of Black Pride Flag.

If it is legal to burn the US Flag, who cares about some flag that represented the south? A lot of this is about the right that states have to defy the federal government and protest too much government intervention in our lives and in the affairs of individual states. I dont think southern states should care what some jerk in New York thinks about the south.

I think the a** F***s should care. The northeast is the economic and intellectual center of this country. What the hell has the south ever done except bring misery to others?

Especially Texas. Nothing grows there, its hot as hell, and the people are annoying. Complain about welfare LOL. We pay for most of these states.

WTF are you smoking?

Jeesh, stop generalizing and stereotyping. I've been to many places across this country, and mostly I find people to be pretty nice. Doesn't matter if it is San Diego or New York, or Houston, Texas, most people I've come across are pretty nice people.

Trust me, ignorance and hatred know no borders. They lie not in the South, nor in the North, nor in the West. They are everywhere and they are nowhere.

And I care no more about what NY'ers think of me than what my neighbor thinks of me. But then again, I'm not the one here defaming millions of people, either. You are. New York happens to be one of the last places I have visited and I enjoyed it, thoroughly. The people were nice, the bars were great, the food was fantastic.

And finally, how dare you say anything about the South being a welfare state paid for by the North. That's just completely fvcking ignorant. Ever heard of FedEx? Dell? You want me to name some more?

 

[jimkyser]

Originally posted by: piasabird
Time for a reality check. There can not be anyone in the United States that really thinks slavery is, was, or will ever be a good thing. Hopefully, we have at least learned that lesson. The Civil war was bloody and was fought for possibly various reasons. However, to deny it was at least partly due to slavery and those who benefitted from slavery is a bit far sided. I know that people on the left and right coast think that they know what is right for the rest of the country. However, the history of the norheast states and the states like Texas, Alabama, Georgia and Louisiana are equally valid. Southerners have to have a way of remembering what their forefathers did and how they died. If the Rebel Flag helps them to remember their own history, then I think they have a right to fly it. The Rebel Flag is a symbol of rebellion and many young people from the south or other places identify with being a rebel and fighting against the system.

When you go to see dukes of Hazard, if you go to see it, you will not see people who remember slavery fondly, you will only see people who identify with the south and live proud lives. The Rebel flag has become more than just fighting for slavery. Those that fought for the south did not all own slaves, but they fought anyway. I cant begin to understand why the war had to be fought or why anyone could possibly defend slavery, but I will defend their right to fly the rebel flag. I have never met a slave, and I cant possibly understand what that means, but people can have different views and still be Americans.

The Federal Government also tried to put down a supposed rebellion in the territory of Utah. They sent troops to quell an insurrection in the territory of Utah that did not even exist. It was met with opposition of a peacful resistance and an eventual peaceful solution was found. There was no revolt against the USA in the territory of Utah, but the Federal Government still had to attempt to start a war there. This is how pompous the federal government was back then.

Never forget tyranny!

Individuals absolutely have the right to fly the rebel flag if they want. I just question the reasoning behind their desire in some cases, especially when I'm in northern Michigan.

 

[jimkyser]

Originally posted by: bamacre

And finally, how dare you say anything about the South being a welfare state paid for by the North. That's just completely fvcking ignorant. Ever heard of FedEx? Dell? You want me to name some more?

Unfortunately, it's not ignorant. If you look at taxes paid to the federal government vs. money paid out by the federal government, on a state by state basis, the southern states recieve more than they send. States like New York and California, and the northeast in general, pay way more than they get back. The southern states that paid more then they got in 2003 were Georgia and Texas, Florida broke even.

See the chart: http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/266.html

 

[ExpertNovice]

Originally posted by: jimkyser

Originally posted by: ExpertNovice

Edited to add: Your Poll should include it is or is not for areas in the U.S.A. that are not "North" or "South." I live in Texas and it is not part of the "South."

Not to be nitpicky and all. Texas may be different in many ways from the rest of what is called 'The South', but I think that being one of the states that joined the Confederacy pretty much makes it part of 'The South' when it comes to discussions about the Civil War. And since the flag in question was used by certain Conferate groups during the Civil War, this would be one of those discussions.

My apologies. I had learned, from an early age, that Texas was not a Confederate state. I stand corrected. You are correct.


Februrary 6, 1861: South Carolina, Mississippi, Florida, Alabama, Georgia, & Louisiana
March 4, 1861: President Lincoln was sworn in as President.
March 1861: Texas, Sam Houston was replaced as Governor as he refused to take an oath of allegiance to the Confederacy.
April 12: South Carolina fired upon Federal Troops stationed in Fort Sumter.
????: Virginia, Arkansas, Tennessee, and North Carolina joined.
Missouri and Kentucky remained as part of the Union but many fought with the Confederacy
Maryland wanted to join and martial law was declared to prevent it.
Delaware was a slave state but did not want to seceed
West Virgina split from Virginia and joined the Union.
Tennessee wanted to join the union but martial law was delcared to prevent it.

The commonwealth (of Texas) which, in the short space of forty years, had developed from a little group of three hundred families in the midst of a complete wilderness, sent more than seventy thousand men to the defense of the bonnie blue banner of the Confederacy. One hundred and thirty-five officers above the rank of lieutenant-colonel in the Confederate army were from Texas.

How sad that Texas participated. Texas is the one state that does not have to seceed from the Union to become an indepenent State.

I guess all I can say is that Texas is not part of the current states called the South. Our geographical position and size make us a very unique state that does not quite fit in with the "south", East, or West. I'm sure there are some "celebrations" of the confederacy but I have never seen or heard of any so they are not state wide. Our capital does not fly the confederate flag as some of the southern states do.
Of course, many in the Confederacy helped the Union, so it was not so cut and dried as some would have it.


Edited to quote the quote about Texas involvement that was pulled from a website. Sure wish that part of Texas history could be erased. Since it can't be, it is best that it never be forgotten. Many of us can see how forgetting how Fascism was implemented is allowing it to be spread throughout the world.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Texas produces 20.2% of the US's cotton.
Why is "hot as hell" any worse than "colder than a witch's tit?"
Who do you think would rank as more rude and annoying in a poll, NYers or Texans?

Cotton is fine. But you very well know that we have the stock market, central government, museums and good bars up here. Why do you think Al-Qaeda attacking DC and NYC?

NYers in general do come off as rude but they will help you out in need dude. They just know what they want to do and go straight for it. The Texans I have met for the most part - are very uneducated and talk a LOT about cars. Thats all well and good but once the subject changes to something more complex they are at a loss. They are also very herd like. I think your personality has been molded by Texas. If you came up here I bet you would become a liberal, pinko, educated snob 🙂

That said you have a point it is cold in the northeast (well right now its like 95 degrees but the winters suck) and cold vs. hot is all personal preference.

Golly, you're right - Dallas/Austin/San Antonio don't have anything resembling bars or nightclubs or museums or orchestras or universities or concerts or bookstores or indoor plumbing. It's just one giant 268000+ sq.mi, cow-dung filled pasture with a few tumbleweeds and some yokels, none of who have every been famous for being President, or a General, or a musician, or an actor. I'll put our Eisenhower, Janis Joplin, Tommy Lee Jones, Sandra Day O'Connor, and Ross Perot against your state's equivalents any time. 🙂

And sorry, but Southerners are a bit more reknown for their hospitality than the average NY "city-slicker."

I've only been in Texas for 5 years now - my mom and dad are from Maryland and Delaware, respectively. I don't think I'm quite "molded" by years of being a Texan. 😉

 

[BushBasha]

Originally posted by: jimkyser

See the chart: http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/266.html

That's what they get for voting Democrat...no ROI (return-on-investment) 🙂

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: jimkyser

Originally posted by: bamacre

And finally, how dare you say anything about the South being a welfare state paid for by the North. That's just completely fvcking ignorant. Ever heard of FedEx? Dell? You want me to name some more?

Unfortunately, it's not ignorant. If you look at taxes paid to the federal government vs. money paid out by the federal government, on a state by state basis, the southern states recieve more than they sends. States like New York and California paid way more than they get back. The southern states that paid more then they got in 2003 were Georgia and Texas, Florida broke even.

See the chart: http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/266.html

Damn those southern states like Hawaii, Alaska, and Montana! And when I think about the most southern, racist state of all, I damn sure think of New Mexico! :roll:

Look at population density vs those number for some explanation. (It doesn't explain some, like Mississippi.)

 

[jimkyser]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Damn those southern states like Hawaii, Alaska, and Montana! And when I think about the most southern, racist state of all, I damn sure think of New Mexico! :roll:

Look at population density vs those number for some explanation. (It doesn't explain some, like Mississippi.)

It's not that the southern states are the only ones taking more then they give, it's that most of them take more then they give. Look at Virginia. It's a very prosperous and populace state, but it's still in 8th place, getting $1.58 back for every $1.00 it sends to the feds. And Colorado is not what I would call 'densly populated', but it still only ranks 41st on the list.

And before anyone thinks I'm picking on Virginia, I used to live there (11 years) and would definitely move back. It's beautiful and the people are great.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: jimkyser

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Damn those southern states like Hawaii, Alaska, and Montana! And when I think about the most southern, racist state of all, I damn sure think of New Mexico! :roll:

Look at population density vs those number for some explanation. (It doesn't explain some, like Mississippi.)

It's not that the southern states are the only ones taking more then they give, it's that most of them take more then they give. Look at Virginia. It's a very prosperous and populace state, but it's still in 8th place, getting $1.58 back for every $1.00 it sends to the feds. And Colorado is not what I would call 'densly populated', but it still only ranks 41st on the list.

And before anyone thinks I'm picking on Virginia, I used to live there (11 years) and would definitely move back. It's beautiful and the people are great.

I'm not suggesting that it's not true that many southern states use more fedral funds than they contributed, just the perception that this is necessarily a bad thing. Sure, states like MS and LA are relatively poor and are victims of corrupt and inept politicians who have run their budgets into the ground. But other states probably have valid reasons for needing federal dollars. Perhaps they need subsidies to help provide cheap agricultural products to the rest of the union, or they manage National Parks or military bases, etc.

I'm just balking against the notion that they are on "welfare," which apparently tends to conjur images of uneducated slack-jawed yokels sitting around doing nothing while the fine, upstanding citizens of the "blue states" work extra hard to take care of them. Very few states could "make it" on their own with the US, and very few states (if any) are so important that the US could not "make it" without them.

There's a lot of hate that goes on, and maybe it's just my perception, but while many southerners "prefer" the south to northern locations or CA, few will declare that they hate them or that they are useless. But you often see a lot of NE and CA citizens down "the south" as some large, monolithic group that is undesired and down-right despised, with very few "valid" reasons. And the perception of these places being "open-minded, free-thinking" states just makes it all the more ironic, IMO.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: jimkyser

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Damn those southern states like Hawaii, Alaska, and Montana! And when I think about the most southern, racist state of all, I damn sure think of New Mexico! :roll:

Look at population density vs those number for some explanation. (It doesn't explain some, like Mississippi.)

It's not that the southern states are the only ones taking more then they give, it's that most of them take more then they give. Look at Virginia. It's a very prosperous and populace state, but it's still in 8th place, getting $1.58 back for every $1.00 it sends to the feds. And Colorado is not what I would call 'densly populated', but it still only ranks 41st on the list.

And before anyone thinks I'm picking on Virginia, I used to live there (11 years) and would definitely move back. It's beautiful and the people are great.

I'm not suggesting that it's not true that many southern states use more fedral funds than they contributed, just the perception that this is necessarily a bad thing. Sure, states like MS and LA are relatively poor and are victims of corrupt and inept politicians who have run their budgets into the ground. But other states probably have valid reasons for needing federal dollars. Perhaps they need subsidies to help provide cheap agricultural products to the rest of the union, or they manage National Parks or military bases, etc.

I'm just balking against the notion that they are on "welfare," which apparently tends to conjur images of uneducated slack-jawed yokels sitting around doing nothing while the fine, upstanding citizens of the "blue states" work extra hard to take care of them. Very few states could "make it" on their own with the US, and very few states (if any) are so important that the US could not "make it" without them.

There's a lot of hate that goes on, and maybe it's just my perception, but while many southerners "prefer" the south to northern locations or CA, few will declare that they hate them or that they are useless. But you often see a lot of NE and CA citizens down "the south" as some large, monolithic group that is undesired and down-right despised, with very few "valid" reasons. And the perception of these places being "open-minded, free-thinking" states just makes it all the more ironic, IMO.

:thumbsup::thumbsup: