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Rape victim is coveted status - George Wills

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I honestly don't understand what you mean. Just trying to be objective here. If you aren't interested in whether or not it's prosecutable then how could you possibly care about the supposed victim? Or victims generally, of which there are a lot?

I'm not sure what's not clear. Debating the facts of this particular case based off a two small paragraph excerpt in a George Will column is not of interest to me. Not being interested in debating a case with so little evidence has nothing to do with how much I care about any rape victim or any other victim.

Even if there was enough evidence to debate it, I still don't see why I would need to want to discuss that here. A person being raped is a tragedy, but I personally find those saying that consent is derived by lack of affirmative rejection to be far more disturbing. I'd rather not distract from that.

I don't see anyone arguing that not fighting someone off means the same thing as consent, except maybe that michal guy. But in law it's apparently universally recognized as relevant to the whether or not there was consent.

If a woman said no, then a guy proceeded to continue. Don't you think she'd jump out of bed when she started feeling a penis enter her or his hands going around her panties and sliding them down and said "WTF are you doing? Get out of this bed! What didn't you understand about the No?"

But she let him... That is consent.

Letting someone take your panties off without telling them no or even attempting to stop them is consent.

"I Let him finish" implies consent.

I could go on?
 
rape 3 is still like 4 years. Esk has no interest in whether or not this particular victim could receive any justice, but just in case she could, and ignoring the facts, let's give this guy 4 years. Talk about moral repugnancy. I'm not saying he's not guilty, but almost everyone is way too quick to judge him as if he was, without any doubt.
 
rape 3 is still like 4 years. Esk has no interest in whether or not this particular victim could receive any justice, but just in case she could, and ignoring the facts, let's give this guy 4 years. Talk about moral repugnancy. I'm not saying he's not guilty, but almost everyone is way too quick to judge him as if he was, without a doubt.

You're right, giving the guy a prison sentence without examining the evidence would really be morally repugnant. I'm sure you're very happy to know that I've never advocated anything of the sort, right?
 
Yeah i meant matt when i said michal. They're equivalent. They still seem to be saying something more complicated than just "no physical resistance, no consent."
 
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Yeah i meant matt when i said michal. They're equivalent. They still don't seem to be saying something more complicated than just "no physical resistance, no consent."

And while that might be the legal threshold, it's worth considering the morality of forcing yourself on someone when she's said already said no. Just because she doesn't put up a fight, doesn't mean it's what she wanted. People ascribing motives based on inaction are desperate to defend someone who clearly has no respect for the person he wanted to have sex with. It's pathetic and shameful.

Laws are one thing. Culture is another. And our current culture treats women pretty shittily.
 
How is that anything but sexual assault.

does seem like you've convicted him already, just based on her story, and 12 minutes after the OP started the thread, and before anyone had offered any contrary opinion or expressed anything about consent based on a lack of "fighting back." And people like him are convicted all the time.
 
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does seem like you've convicted him already, just based on her story, and 12 minutes after the OP started the thread. And people like him are convicted all the time.

Saying what I think something is and saying that someone has met the legal standard for conviction and incarceration are two really different things.
 
Yeah i meant matt when i said michal. They're equivalent. They still seem to be saying something more complicated than just "no physical resistance, no consent."

Which gets to the core of the 'let' argument. You can let someone do something, without resistance, but it doesn't mean you consented to it. If you've got a gun to your head, you're going to 'let' people do a lot of things you would not normally 'let' them do. And when you're a young woman in bed with a man twice your size you may 'let' him do things to you that you told him not to do.

It sickens me that this is even a point of conversation. What I've learned from this thread is that there are some guys out there who spend an awful lot of time and energy trying to validate rape loopholes, as if they're optimistic it will help them out if they get rapey.

I've been in bed with women where everyone was consenting up until we couldn't find a condom. She wanted it, I wanted it, clothes had long since been shed. But it was no dice without protection so that's where it ended for the evening.

At NO POINT did I think to myself, 'y'know. . . She's done so many consenting things and only said 'no' just now. Maybe, just maybe I can still have sex with her and it wouldn't REALLY be rape. At least not in the eyes of the law. . . ' Now why didn't I think these things? Because that's the type of thing that would pass through the mind of a misogynist cretin who has no respect for other human beings, much less the opposite sex. The whole reason this thread just fucking BLOWS MY MIND is that people actually exist that think that parsing semantics might just help you when you want to rape a girl.

Seriously?

I thought people like that only existed in Onion articles.
 
Which gets to the core of the 'let' argument. You can let someone do something, without resistance, but it doesn't mean you consented to it. If you've got a gun to your head, you're going to 'let' people do a lot of things you would not normally 'let' them do. And when you're a young woman in bed with a man twice your size you may 'let' him do things to you that you told him not to do.

It sickens me that this is even a point of conversation. What I've learned from this thread is that there are some guys out there who spend an awful lot of time and energy trying to validate rape loopholes, as if they're optimistic it will help them out if they get rapey.

I've been in bed with women where everyone was consenting up until we couldn't find a condom. She wanted it, I wanted it, clothes had long since been shed. But it was no dice without protection so that's where it ended for the evening.

At NO POINT did I think to myself, 'y'know. . . She's done so many consenting things and only said 'no' just now. Maybe, just maybe I can still have sex with her and it wouldn't REALLY be rape. At least not in the eyes of the law. . . ' Now why didn't I think these things? Because that's the type of thing that would pass through the mind of a misogynist cretin who has no respect for other human beings, much less the opposite sex. The whole reason this thread just fucking BLOWS MY MIND is that people actually exist that think that parsing semantics might just help you when you want to rape a girl.

Seriously?

I thought people like that only existed in Onion articles.

Don't quote me as part of your strange soapbox effort, please. If you think your example makes any sense then you're just silly.
 
Which gets to the core of the 'let' argument. You can let someone do something, without resistance, but it doesn't mean you consented to it. If you've got a gun to your head, you're going to 'let' people do a lot of things you would not normally 'let' them do. And when you're a young woman in bed with a man twice your size you may 'let' him do things to you that you told him not to do.

It sickens me that this is even a point of conversation. What I've learned from this thread is that there are some guys out there who spend an awful lot of time and energy trying to validate rape loopholes, as if they're optimistic it will help them out if they get rapey.

I've been in bed with women where everyone was consenting up until we couldn't find a condom. She wanted it, I wanted it, clothes had long since been shed. But it was no dice without protection so that's where it ended for the evening.

At NO POINT did I think to myself, 'y'know. . . She's done so many consenting things and only said 'no' just now. Maybe, just maybe I can still have sex with her and it wouldn't REALLY be rape. At least not in the eyes of the law. . . ' Now why didn't I think these things? Because that's the type of thing that would pass through the mind of a misogynist cretin who has no respect for other human beings, much less the opposite sex. The whole reason this thread just fucking BLOWS MY MIND is that people actually exist that think that parsing semantics might just help you when you want to rape a girl.

Seriously?

I thought people like that only existed in Onion articles.

Still using the gun to someone's head comparison. And by definition LET is consent.

let
1. To give permission
 
Saying what I think something is and saying that someone has met the legal standard for conviction and incarceration are two really different things.

only difference is that you aren't serving on a jury currently. If you were, you'd be more considered? Why not get into the habit of always holding reasoned opinions, even when a man's life isn't on the line.
 
And while that might be the legal threshold, it's worth considering the morality of forcing yourself on someone when she's said already said no. Just because she doesn't put up a fight, doesn't mean it's what she wanted. People ascribing motives based on inaction are desperate to defend someone who clearly has no respect for the person he wanted to have sex with. It's pathetic and shameful.

Laws are one thing. Culture is another. And our current culture treats women pretty shittily.

(1) Treating women "shittily" isn't rape.

(2) How could you possibly respect someone that would rather be raped than go through the hassle of saying no a second time?
 
does seem like you've convicted him already, just based on her story, and 12 minutes after the OP started the thread, and before anyone had offered any contrary opinion or expressed anything about consent based on a lack of "fighting back." And people like him are convicted all the time.
Obviously, the actual testimony has to be heard before anyone can render an honest opinion about guilt or innocence in this case. The story actually provides very little information, and I'd want to hear ALL of the woman's and man's version of the events of that evening, as well as any corroborating information from intimate friends or anyone else who has at information about the issue. For example, the woman might have sought advice from her best friend or a social worker the next day, saying she felt conflicted - the sex was very much against her will and she wanted justice, but she didn't want to get her former lover into trouble. And if it turned out that the ex-boyfriend had a history of being abusive when denied sex, that would go a long way toward explaining the woman's seeming passivity.
 
(1) Treating women "shittily" isn't rape.

(2) How could you possibly respect someone that would rather be raped than go through the hassle of saying no a second time?

1 Well, I was talking about our culture, so yeah... our culture isn't actively raping women. Way to make that important distinction, bro.

2 Maybe because if I know her as a whole person, I might know that there's usually a larger context to someone's sexual activity. I'd certainly not make assumptions about her willingness based on inaction. But that's because I'm not a sociopath.
 
Still using the gun to someone's head comparison. And by definition LET is consent.

let
1. To give permission

I can do that too:


1. (transitive) To allow to, not to prevent


3. a : to give opportunity to or fail to prevent


Do you not see that arguing the semantics here just highlights how disturbing your opinion on this issue is?
 
Yes yes, he's guilty even though we only heard the edited after 6 weeks version of the story from the accuser, where she kinda thought they said they were going to do it again, and she kinda told him no.

But thats here kinda story, its also entirly possible that after that kinda no, she could have said, kinda ok to one last time, but then talked to someone else afterwards who kinda changed her mind, and now he raped her.


So because after the fact she kinda though it was bad, or had some regert, the guy has to go to jail.

But we all know that accusers would never lie, or edit their stories, or anything else, they are 100% truthfull in all their statements 100% of the time.
 
Obviously, the actual testimony has to be heard before anyone can render an honest opinion about guilt or innocence in this case. The story actually provides very little information, and I'd want to hear ALL of the woman's and man's version of the events of that evening, as well as any corroborating information from intimate friends or anyone else who has at information about the issue. For example, the woman might have sought advice from her best friend or a social worker the next day, saying she felt conflicted - the sex was very much against her will and she wanted justice, but she didn't want to get her former lover into trouble. And if it turned out that the ex-boyfriend had a history of being abusive when denied sex, that would go a long way toward explaining the woman's seeming passivity.

That hasn't stopped 80% of contributors to the thread asserting that he's undeniably guilty, based only on the article. But i guess they just meant that colloquially speaking.
 
That hasn't stopped 80% of contributors to the thread asserting that he's undeniably guilty, based only on the article. But i guess they just meant that colloquially speaking.

We can only base opinion on the evidence provided.

And, if you take the woman's statements at face value, he is guilty of at least sexual assault.
 
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We can only base opinion on the evidence provided.

And, if you take the woman's statements at face value, he is guilty of at least sexual assault.

I've already pointed out how that's not necessarily true, unless you mean to take her statements at face value and then no other evidence whatsoever, which just proves the author's point.
 
Still using the gun to someone's head comparison. And by definition LET is consent.

let
1. To give permission

So you choose the one definition of the word that has (looking at Merriam Webster here) at least six as a transitive verb that fits your world view of wanting to rape women. . .

You're really fucking sick.
 
I can do that too:


1. (transitive) To allow to, not to prevent


3. a : to give opportunity to or fail to prevent


Do you not see that arguing the semantics here just highlights how disturbing your opinion on this issue is?

It has to come to this when people decide the word LET doesn't seem to mean consent.
 
So you choose the one definition of the word that has (looking at Merriam Webster here) at least six as a transitive verb that fits your world view of wanting to rape women. . .

You're really fucking sick.

You are just being dishonest. Find me a definition of the word let that would tend to say it doesn't mean consent.
 
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