Rambus coming back?

[Zebo]

This is facinating. Just curious. Back when RDDAM was the leader why did'nt RAMBUS open a FAB? They had the money, stock was $175 with billions in option to sell. I think unless you make product it's hard to push standard on those who actually make product. I don't know royalty rate, but obviousy it was high, real high, since RDRAM was 2x DDR price even at monopolistic price settings of DDR. Something smells fishy here.

 

[Ice9]

Originally posted by: Zebo
This is facinating. Just curious. Back when RDDAM was the leader why did'nt RAMBUS open a FAB? They had the money, stock was $175 with billions in option to sell. I think unless you make product it's hard to push standard on those who actually make product. I don't know royalty rate, but obviousy it was high, real high, since RDRAM was 2x DDR price even at monopolistic price settings of DDR. Something smells fishy here.

No, they didn't have the money. Opening a fab costs billions. You have to buy or build the facilities, you have to hire the people, pay their salaries, etc.

The royalty rate was 1.5% on RDRAM. What made the price high was the memory manufacturers colluding to keep the price high while selling SDRAM at firesale prices so it would look more attractive.

If you look at Micron's earnings (they were #1 at the time), they lost billions per year in that timeframe. The others lost hundreds of millions.

Think about it. If RDRAM was priced at $800-$1200 per 128MB module back in its heyday, why did Playstation2's cost $299? After all, they all have 64MB of RDRAM in them....

The answer is simple. Dell bought as much RDRAM as they could to sell systems. If they have two 128MB modules to sell, they can do one of two things: Use it to build 2 systems they can sell, or use it to build one system and sell the other 128MB module as an upgrade and lose the profit on the 2nd system.

Dell isn't in the business of losing money, so they priced the 2nd module high so they could make the same profit that they'd normally make when they sold a system. RDRAM was in tight supply because of what the memory manufacturers did (they claimed "low yields" and such, but Samsung & Mitsubishi both testified that yields were comparable to any other memory technology).

 

[Oyeve]

Well, my ASUS P4T533 mobo with 1 gig (2x512mb) Samsung 32bit 1066mhz RDRAM with a P4 3.06 processor still kicks much a$$. Its my secondary gaming system with an ATI 9500 Pro in it and plays all the latest games great. I will never get rid of it! RDRAM ruled! Except when Dell put it in crappy P3 systems, ugh, So much trouble shooting.

 

[BrentUnitedMem]

god ! These memory technologies pattents are soo stupid!

RAMBUS has god awful prices.
512MB-PC800 $200 ?? What the hell is this SHHHHHH
512MB DDR is only $70

down with RAMBUS I say!

XDR RAMBUS- how dreadful. I heard the bad news.

It's just friggin stupid how everyone has to pay a royalty to RAMBUS.

And now RAMBUS is suing everyone.

No wonder no one likes RAMBUS. duh

I am going to place a pattent on taking a dump.

ICE- did you take a dump today? I believe you owe me.

HAHAHAHAHAAH!!

 

[BrentUnitedMem]

I am involved in stocks too. Actually I work for one of the leading manufacturers in the US.

Rambus is expensive to build. Most manufacturers prefer TSOP package.

Samsung right now is the major player on RAMBUS.

But Rambus now falls into a niche market. The cost for rambus vs the speed does justify the price when DDR is faster now and much cheaper.

It's just sad when one small company like RAMBUS is suing pretty much everyone else. Everyone else is wrong I guess, right?

Infineon, Micron, Hynix, Nanya.. that's the majority of the DRAM market right there!

You cant fight everyone.

 

[Oyeve]

Originally posted by: BrentUnitedMem
god ! These memory technologies pattents are soo stupid!

RAMBUS has god awful prices.
512MB-PC800 $200 ?? What the hell is this SHHHHHH
512MB DDR is only $70

down with RAMBUS I say!

XDR RAMBUS- how dreadful. I heard the bad news.

It's just friggin stupid how everyone has to pay a royalty to RAMBUS.

And now RAMBUS is suing everyone.

No wonder no one likes RAMBUS. duh

I am going to place a pattent on taking a dump.

ICE- did you take a dump today? I believe you owe me.

HAHAHAHAHAAH!!

It's all about supply and demand.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Ice9

Originally posted by: sandorski
Rambus may not be dead, but if you bought your stock when it was at $200-400, it may as well be dead. The Rambus Stock will never see those prices again.

Really?

See, this is where things get interesting.

If a company is found to be WILLFULLY infringing (as these companies are), Rambus is entitled to "Treble Damages".

This means that whatever amount of damages they are entitled to, they are entitled to TRIPLE that amount.

Currently, these companies are on the hook for $800M on SDRAM alone (that doesn't take DDR and above into account).

So Rambus would essentially be entitled to $2.4 billion in back royalties on SDRAM alone. So what would that do to a company's stock price when they're already profitable? You do the math.

Like I said, I hope you didn't buy in at too high a price. If you just bought in recently you could make some money on the fluctuations, but Rambus will never match the expectations of it back in the heady days. Never.

 

[grant2]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: grant2
you guys are wasting your time arguing with ice9, ....

I highly doubt that...

Of course... there's always a fresh stock of zealots ready to figuratively beat their head against the wall

Let the amusement continue!!

 

[thecrecarc]

Originally posted by: grant2

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: grant2
you guys are wasting your time arguing with ice9, ....

I highly doubt that...

Of course... there's always a fresh stock of zealots ready to figuratively beat their head against the wall

Let the amusement continue!!

yup yup (even tho i couldn't understand half of this thread) go bash against each other! go whoever wins! woohoo



ice: rumbus ruls

other people rambus sucks

ice i have proof

other people we do too

bash bash

 

[Terumo]

Originally posted by: Ice9
Well, RDRAM is in fact over and done with. Rambus isn't focusing on RDRAM anymore as it's been effectively killed by the collusion between memory manufacturers.

Never say never. There's medicine that was made and faced worst media exposure and government intervention, that's back in the spotlight to treat other diseases. Thalidomide being one of them (the morning sickness drug that caused the "flipper kids" [kids born with disfigured arms and legs or none at all] during the 1950's and early 60's).

What RDRAM faced wasn't the firestorm that Thaliomide caused 40 years ago.

Yes, it is the better memory, but that won't bring it back. Rambus decided to leave that be, and move forward with XDR, RASER & Redwood.

I'd never say never. When the industry hits another bottleneck, they could turn back to basic older technology for answers.

And rambus is hardly a giant. They're a tiny company with a lot of bright ideas whose technology (RDRAM) was slaughtered by a media smear campaign.

Wasn't referring to Rambus the company. I was referring to any campaign to knock down a technology/market leader, can cause a vacuum of the mundane to fill it.

Knocking down Intel (or MS) wouldn't cause the bonanza open source advocates claim, it can cause anarchy in the industry, with poorer results and quality -- as it takes money to research/test/market successful products. Another reason why communism couldn't work in reality -- which open source is a form of. By knocking down RDRAM, DDR took over but what we got is a memory technology that'll go the way of the dodo.

Customers *love* the fact they got memory cheaper, only now to realize they bought into another price fixing scam. But instead of acknowledging they were taken to the cleaners, they'll still adamantly claim RDRAM is bad and Rambus got it's "just deserts" (out of ignorance and/or to save face).

If Rambus could've designed the memory to their specs, all of the crap it got about it's latency, it's heat would've been gone. Compromising design for mass profit was Rambus's mistake, and the fall isn't pretty. Yet it won't be as pretty as the fall DDR proponents will face when they look at the uniform prices of memory (despite the fact not every memory produced is equal, some cut corners but still can charge "big boy" prices, as memory is traded as a commodity).

Sometimes what's cheaper doesn't = better.

 

[Terumo]

Originally posted by: Zebo
This is facinating. Just curious. Back when RDDAM was the leader why did'nt RAMBUS open a FAB? They had the money, stock was $175 with billions in option to sell. I think unless you make product it's hard to push standard on those who actually make product. I don't know royalty rate, but obviousy it was high, real high, since RDRAM was 2x DDR price even at monopolistic price settings of DDR. Something smells fishy here.

Probably because they are engineers first, not marketeers. Any business could run a company, but few are run by professionals that actually can and do the research. If it's true that 170 out of 200 of Rambus top staff are engineers that alone would tell folks none of them are corporate types (and whoa them if they were, since the outcome would be a poorer product for $$$$$$$$$$).

If the premise is true that engineers are trying to protect their property rights, then the are within their rights to sue (who wouldn't try to save their bacon??). But what we have here is more speculation than evidence, and what folks need is more evidence to convince them what happened to Rambus was a paid "hit" -- not just opinions.

I'm not a conspiracy fan, but I won't rule out greed by memory manufacturers to profit. If Apple, MS, AMD, Intel or any other tech giant can do it, it's not hard to believe memory manufacturers did it as well (well we all know price fixing occurs in the industry, the prices are tooooo uniform across the board to claim that each company warrants the prices they charge [like for R+D labs, which is a legit reason to charge more as it costs more to be innovative] ).

Would wait buying their stock, but IF evidence shows a true conspiracy, be ready to invest in them (if they tailor down their IMAGE of greedy profiteers with all the lawsuits -- which costs will only be passed onto customers. Investors don't like to gamble to lose).

 

[Ice9]

Originally posted by: sandorski


Like I said, I hope you didn't buy in at too high a price. If you just bought in recently you could make some money on the fluctuations, but Rambus will never match the expectations of it back in the heady days. Never.

Yeah, you said that. You never said "why".

If Rambus gets a $3B royalty payment (which they *eventually will see*), you're saying the stock price won't be impacted?

While I don't believe analyst Fred Hager's take on it (he says the stock could reach $1000/shr once the lawsuits are settled), I *DO* believe the stock will see a huge gain once the precedent is set.

You aren't stating ANY reasoning for why you feel it won't skyrocket. You're just ambiguously saying "it'll never be that high again."

Back that up.

 

[Ice9]

Originally posted by: Terumo
Would wait buying their stock, but IF evidence shows a true conspiracy, be ready to invest in them (if they tailor down their IMAGE of greedy profiteers with all the lawsuits -- which costs will only be passed onto customers. Investors don't like to gamble to lose).

You should read the FTC docket. They outline the conspiracy and back it with hard evidence (like the "deadly menace" memo and the mitsubishi evidence).

The Federal Trade Commission ruled in Rambus' favor, though the full commission is appealing (they always do). If you read the Administrative Law Judges ruling, it's clear that Rambus is the victim.

There certainly was a conspiracy. There certainly was a media smear campaign. Rambus's big luck-out was that they were sloppy about it, and the people who decided to play nice with Rambus gave them the evidence they needed.

Rambus won. They'll continue to win. It may take appeals all the way to the supreme court. But there's simply no way Rambus can lose, unless they go bankrupt in the process. And I don't see that happening anytime soon, since they continue to be profitable.

This whole mess is over. It's just not over with.

 

[digitalsm]

Originally posted by: Snoop
Rambus is an IP company built by lawyers. Nothing is more despicable. Winning one suit out of the literally 1000's they have filed means nothing.

They've won more than one suit.

 

[Terumo]

Originally posted by: Ice9

Originally posted by: Terumo
Would wait buying their stock, but IF evidence shows a true conspiracy, be ready to invest in them (if they tailor down their IMAGE of greedy profiteers with all the lawsuits -- which costs will only be passed onto customers. Investors don't like to gamble to lose).

You should read the FTC docket. They outline the conspiracy and back it with hard evidence (like the "deadly menace" memo and the mitsubishi evidence).

The Federal Trade Commission ruled in Rambus' favor, though the full commission is appealing (they always do). If you read the Administrative Law Judges ruling, it's clear that Rambus is the victim.

There certainly was a conspiracy. There certainly was a media smear campaign. Rambus's big luck-out was that they were sloppy about it, and the people who decided to play nice with Rambus gave them the evidence they needed.

Rambus won. They'll continue to win. It may take appeals all the way to the supreme court. But there's simply no way Rambus can lose, unless they go bankrupt in the process. And I don't see that happening anytime soon, since they continue to be profitable.

This whole mess is over. It's just not over with.

Links? Especially the Administrative Law judge's opinion ( don't live at the FTC site or FindLaw or have the $$$$ for Lexus). And can you provide links of earlier cases, the ones they lost and won? Cases show a pattern, and it all depends on what they're suing for -- market share, or intellectual property rights.

 

[Ice9]

Originally posted by: Terumo
Links? Especially the Administrative Law judge's opinion ( don't live at the FTC site or FindLaw or have the $$$$ for Lexus). And can you provide links of earlier cases, the ones they lost and won? Cases show a pattern, and it all depends on what they're suing for -- market share, or intellectual property rights.

Sure....

FTC Docket
Administrative Law Judge dismissal of the case against Rambus - key quote:
Complaint Counsel have failed to sustain their burden of proof with respect all three of the violations alleged in the Complaint. A review of the three violations alleged in the Complaint shows that although Respondent is in possession of monopoly power in the relevant markets, Complaint Counsel have failed to demonstrate that Respondent engaged in a pattern of exclusionary, anticompetitive conduct which subverted an open standards process, or that Respondent utilized such conduct to capture an unlawfl monopoly in the technology-related markets. Analyzing the challenged conduct under established principles of economics and antitrust law and utilizing the preponderance of evidence standard, Complaint Counsel have not proven the elements necessary to support a finding ofliability.
Antitrust investigation with regards to price fixing

 

[Terumo]

Whoa, whoa, whoa -- Is that the Kenneth Starr of Clinton Impeachment fame arguing for the defendents-Cross defendents?? Washington, DC lawfirm.

This might get more interesting than a mundane lawsuit!!

 

[Ice9]

One and the same

He was on Infineon's side of the table during the Federal Circuit appeal.

He lost

 

[Ice9]

Federal Circuit ruling in Rambus' favor

Judge Randall Rader is the #1 patent authority in the country. Key quote from him:

"In sum, the district court erred in its construction of each of the disputed terms. In light of the revised claim construction, this court vacates the grant of JMOL of noninfringement and remands for the district court to reconsider infringement."
"In sum, substantial evidence does not support the jury's verdict that Rambus breached its duties under the EIA/JEDEC policy. Infineon did not show the first element of a Virginia fraud action and therefore did not prove fraud associated with the SDRAM standard. No reasonable jury could find otherwise. The district court erred in denying JMOL of no fraud on the SDRAM verdict. Because of these holdings, the new trial and injunction issues are moot."

For those of you who don't know legalese, JMOL means "Judgement as a Matter Of Law". The above basically says that the initial judge in this matter (Judge Payne, who ruled against rambus initially) made a huge mistake by not giving proper kingsdown instruction.

Basically Judge Payne ruled that a "bus" is not a "bus" in any sense of the word. He restricted the meaning of a "bus" as a "multiplexed bus", and not as a bus in a generalized sense. A bus can mean anything, but Judge Payne attemped to restrict its meaning to fit infineon's version of a bus. That's what screwed Rambus the first time around, but they easily won on appeal because it was a huge blunder on Payne's part.

Infineon appealed to the supreme court, but the supreme court refused to hear the case - making this ruling final. This is now back in Judge Payne's court, where he's trying again to try and put the screws to Rambus - meaning it will ultimately get back to the federal circuit where again Infineon will lose because of the prior ruling.

"delay, delay, delay!"

Like I said, it's over, it's just not over with.

 

[Terumo]

Originally posted by: Ice9
One and the same

He was on Infineon's side of the table during the Federal Circuit appeal.

He lost

With Ken Starr there's a gravy train nearby, and it's not just out of Infineon's pocketbook. This case is packed with politics, like high paid industry lobbyists.

Now that he's in the picture, there's more to this than simple industry squabbles. Some heavy moneymakers who fund Starr's friends might take a hit in the wallet -- and can't have the Enron club upset.

Stinks by the minute.

 

[Terumo]

This part is where the meat is.....

"Because the district court erred in its claim construction, this court vacates the grant of JMOL of noninfringement and remands for consideration under the revised claim construction. Additionally, because substantial evidence does not support the implicit jury finding that Rambus breached the relevant disclosure duty during its participation in the standards committee, this court reverses the denial of JMOL that let the fraud verdict stand. Based on the record evidence, the district court properly set aside the fraud verdict on the remaining technology. These holdings render the injunction moot and require this court to vacate and remand the attorney fees award for reconsideration in light of this opinion. The record evidence supports the district court?s grant of JMOL Accordingly, this court vacates-in-part, reverses-in-part, affirms-in-part, and remands."

Now where's this "substantial evidence"? Opinions are nice, but where's the spuds with this steak??

 

[Ice9]

Originally posted by: Terumo
This part is where the meat is.....

Now where's this "substantial evidence"? Opinions are nice, but where's the spuds with this steak??

It's scattered throughout the original docket. A lot of it is redacted because it contains really sensitive info relevant to other trials (and you can't poison a jury). There's tons that *IS* public, like the deadly menace memo, collusive communications between competitors, the fact that the FTC complaint counsel tried to keep the collusion evidence out of the FTC trial, the fact that a Micron executive was charged with obstruction of justice in the price fixing investigation, and this direct excerpt from the FTC decision:

526. In September 1996, Hyundai executive and SyncLink Consortium chairman Farhad Tabrizi wrote an email that expressed a concern that "the real motive of Intel is to control DRAM manufacturers. . . ." According to Tabrizi, Intel' s actions would give it "control of DRAMs and other CPU makers. We will become a foundry for all Intel activities and Intel would like and desires to do business with us then we may get a small share of their total demand. " (RX 778 at 1). Tabrizi concluded his email stating: "I urge you to please educate others and get their agreement to say 'NO TO RAMBUS AN NO TO INTEL DOMINATION.'"
553. Tabrizi admitted at trial that he had told Sang Park, then the President and Chief Operating Officer of Hyundai, that he wanted to "kill" Rambus and force RDRAM from the market. (Tabrizi, Tr. 9105-07). Tabrizi subsequently testified that what he meant by "killing Rambus was really just "Rambus suicide, (with) me watching on the sideline." (Tabrizi Tr. 9109). In his June 2000 email to Park, Tabrizi stated: " (i)f Intel does not invest in us, I really want to ask you to let me go back to my old mode of RDRAM killing. I think we were very close to achieving our goal until you said we are absolutely committed to this baby." (R 1661 at 2).

Infineon plead guilty to price fixing.
Four infineon executives go to jail.

So, yeah. There's evidence. A lot of it is not public yet (since the trials are ongoing), but my personal feeling is that Micron, Infineon, Hynix, Nanya and the like who have colluded and infringed are all making the biggest legal blunder in history. It's already unfolding, and there's a lot more to come. Rambus is winning this fight, and in the end it will be a story about how David can beat Goliath.

All roads lead to Rambus at this point.

 

[BrentUnitedMem]

Rambus isnt dead... Kingston, the largest manufacturer or memroy modules sells a couple hundred per month.

wait... a couple hundred?

BUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

source:
http://www.digitimes.com/NewsShow/MailH...?datePublish=2005/2/2&pages=PR&seq=203

Q: Rambus memory hasn?t been in favor at Intel for some time. Are RIMMs still alive? What can we expect from the XDR technology that Rambus has developed, previously codenamed Yellowstone?

A: RIMMs are alive. We still get a small amount of requests for them. Currently we ship a few hundred RIMMs per month, worldwide. I expect this market to continue for a while, probably until the day people discover they can?t buy any more RIMMs.

XDR was introduced as the next generation of Rambus memory architecture. It seems interesting, so we will have prototypes and will do a lot of testing, but we won?t begin mass production until demand really picks up, as the memory-module industry reacts to the market.

 

[Ice9]

Originally posted by: BrentUnitedMem
Rambus isnt dead... Kingston, the largest manufacturer or memroy modules sells a couple hundred per month.

wait... a couple hundred?

BUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Yah, RDRAM itself is dead. It's all about their newer technologies now.

 

[Tarrant64]

Wow. Never thought i'd read so much about rambus in my god damn life.