Radeon 7870/7850 Reviews Are up!

[Arachnotronic]

My 2500k is begging to be pushed harder by a better GPU, such as these. (Still on a 4850, here)
*Sigh I need a job. :\

Ouch.

 

[Joseph F]

Ouch.

If the paltry 512MB of onboard memory weren't crippling, I'd just pick up another 4850 for $45.
Unfortunately, 512MB just isn't enough anymore. Even for 1440x900.

Actually, that's not even the most dated thing in my rig. I still use a couple of 160GB IDE HDDs for extra storage (160GB SATA for my boot) that probably date back to 2007, or before.
Also, It's housed in a Thermaltake Tsunami Dream which came out in 2004, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[RussianSensation]

I am of the belief that this is one of the worst moments in GPU history when it comes to price/performance improvements year-to-year. Honestly, I've never seen a better argument for buying last-gen parts for cheap.

I agree with you. Just wanted to add a couple things.

I think we're are seeing 2 sides of the story and probably the reason why so many arguments arise.

View #1: If you upgrade every 2-3 years, don't really care for GPU cycles and are in the market to upgrade right now:

People who are looking in the market to upgrade (say coming from HD4850/4870/5770) now don't really care about how great the older cards were 15-16 months ago. If they are looking to buy now, they don't use hindsight or foresight in their purchasing decision. Instead, they just compare what the best card is @ current time when they are ready to buy. In that case, HD7850 & HD7870 are great cards. Naturally, at $350, HD7870 OC can often approach and beat a stock GTX580. Sounds like an amazing deal. Based on this view, the pricing is justified.

View #2: If you plan your purchases and follow the technology curve to "bulls eye" your next card, you expect significant performance gains every 18-24+ months. This gives you an idea if the next upgrade is worth it based on what you had vs. what's expected from price/performance technology curve. It also gives you an idea of how fast the market is moving vs. the historical norm.

This side looks at price/performance curve in terms of technological cycles. In that case, the HD7870 really is a replacement for HD6870, not for HD6970/GTX570. Therefore, it should have HD6970 performance for HD6870 launch price ($239-249, let's say $259 with inflation). Instead AMD brings out this card 15 months later as an HD6870 replacement and prices it at $349? At that price, it's now like a replacement for an HD6970. Well in that case I am sorry but a 10% increase in those historical terms is extremely disappointing. Based on price/performance curve, it should be at least 40% faster. Otherwise, it seems excessive at $349. In fact, the replacement for HD6970 should have been a $379 HD7970 since it is indeed 40-45% faster. This also explains the divergent views on the 7970.

Depends on how you look at it, the entire HD7000 series can be mildly disappointing or if you are looking to buy now, the best thing ever since it made everything else irrelevant at $200+. Anyway you look at it, both of these views are going to dependent on where you are in the upgrade cycle. If you are rocking an HD5850 @ 850mhz+, HD5870, HD6950, GTX560Ti, then these HD7800 cards are an automatic pass. If you are coming from HD4850/HD4890/5770 or something similar to that, they are a good upgrade.

If anything, HD7870 reveals how poor the HD7950 is. The extra 55% memory bandwidth isn't helping HD7950 in higher resolutions by much. It looks like HD7900 series is very much ROP starved, which explains why memory bandwidth starts to become a huge factor once that bottleneck opens up the minute the 7900 series GPU is cranked to say 1200mhz+. Either way, there are some balance issues here.

These cards will eventually come down in price just like HD6870 did, making them a better deal and a worthy successor to the HD6850/6870. HD7850 @ $250 seems like the price/performance sweet-spot for those looking to buy soon.

Let's see what nV brings to the table now. Hopefully we see more performance and / or price wars. :thumbsup:

 

[Stoneburner]

I have a feeling Nvidia is not going to start a price war

Bear in mind, ATI and Nvidia have been guilty of price fixing before..... I'm sure some of you have a 15 dollar rebate that you never used to show for it.

 

[RussianSensation]

I have a feeling Nvidia is not going to start a price war

GK104 GTX670Ti @ $399 (slightly faster than 7870 and slower than 7950)
GK104 GTX680 @ $499 (slightly faster than 7950 and slower than 7970)
GK110 GTX685 @ $600-649 (faster than HD7970).

That would be convenient for both AMD and NV, wouldn't it?

Supposedly we'll find out next week!

* The information above is not intended to accurately reflect NV's future product line, pricing or its performance. Details are subject to change.

 

[Imouto]

Such delusional way of thinking.

 

[RussianSensation]

Such delusional way of thinking.

The information above is not intended to accurately reflect NV's future product line, pricing or its performance. It's meant only to be a joke.

If you were responding in regard to price/performance curve in the world of technology, then not accepting that is equivalent to not following historical GPU development since 1998. If you are new to GPUs, then maybe it doesn't have a lot of relevance for you since HD5870 days.

 

[Nintendesert]

I have a 5870 and play with a 120hz 1080P monitor. These prices are more what I'm willing to pay and with the overclocking the 7870 looks compelling, however I want to see what Kepler brings since we should be relatively close. I think everyone saying these cards are about $50 too much are right. I'd be much more willing to buy if they were a little cheaper.

 

[mkmitch]

The prices are going to stay where they are regardless of Nvidia bringing something to the market. Until the yields for 28 increase price is set by inventory on hand, not competition. I believe that if AMD was able to roll out inventory you would see the prices lower. AS it is now they are priced to sell if you want one buy it, we don''t care yet cuz we don't have that much product available. Only reasoning that makes sense to me.

 

[SirPauly]

Until the yields for 28 increase price is set by inventory on hand, not competition.

I think it's a combination of both.

 

[Nintendesert]

The information above is not intended to accurately reflect NV's future product line, pricing or its performance. It's meant only to be a joke.

If you were responding in regard to price/performance curve in the world of technology, then not accepting that is equivalent to not following historical GPU development since 1998. If you are new to GPUs, then maybe it doesn't have a lot of relevance for you since HD5870 days.

What we'd need is a Federal investigation for price fixing if that were to happen. :whiste:

 

[RussianSensation]

I think it's a combination of both.

People have short memory, or so the saying goes.

GeForce 4200, 6600GT, X800XL/6800GT, 8800GT, HD4870, HD5850/70, GTX460, etc.

Those cards came out of "nowhere" and shook up the landscape. Inevitably, a new card akin to one of those has to emerge. It's an inevitable certainty. Also, no one expected R300 (9700Pro) from ATI and no one expected G80 style domination from NV either. I feel this is as close of a chance as NV is going to get to have another G80 style generation.

 

[Imouto]

The information above is not intended to accurately reflect NV's future product line, pricing or its performance. It's meant only to be a joke.

If you were responding in regard to price/performance curve in the world of technology, then not accepting that is equivalent to not following historical GPU development since 1998. If you are new to GPUs, then maybe it doesn't have a lot of relevance for you since HD5870 days.

OK

/jk

 

[DeeJayeS]

Yeah a lot of the Kepler rumor threads and 7xxx release threads are peppered with complaints about AMD's pricing.

I will be in shock and awe if NV via Kepler rides in on a white horse and delivers materially better performance/$. I hope they do...but...ain't gonna happen. Lower than expected yields are lower. :'(

 

[Crap Daddy]

GK104 GTX670Ti @ $399 (slightly faster than 7870 and slower than 7950)
GK104 GTX680 @ $499 (slightly faster than 7950 and slower than 7970)
GK110 GTX685 @ $600-649 (faster than HD7970).

I don't think that NV will launch a card that's called GTXx80 which is slower than AMD's flagship. This and Kyle's report on HardOCP about 45-50% increase over 580 in canned benchmarks make me think NV will push for the crown. And I think they will be priced acording to performance and the market.

 

[RussianSensation]

OK

/jk

It's all there summarized nicely in 1 page. You can go through GPUReview.com to find release dates. I am sure it's not overly difficult to find launch prices

 

[RussianSensation]

I don't think that NV will launch a card that's called GTXx80 which is slower than AMD's flagship. This and Kyle's report on HardOCP about 45-50% increase over 580 in canned benchmarks make me think NV will push for the crown. And I think they will be priced acording to performance and the market.

- I only provided those "fake" estimates and names for the comment I had regarding a convenient price war.

- I have no way of knowing NV's names obviously. So just wanted to point out 1 more time that the list I put up was NOT intended to be accurate. :thumbsup:

There are too many conflicting rumors. I read on at least 3-4 sites that NV is going to launch GTX560Ti style replacement first with GK104 and then follow-up with the high-end cards later. The first wave of cards will be called GTX600 series and 2nd wave will be called GTX700 series. I also read that NV might launch everything at once in April. And yet other rumors point to GTX600 series launching from April to August with GK110 spread out to August as GTX690. And I am sure you've read on our boards that some people think GK104 with 256-bit bus is really NV's only high-end card this generation (I.e., that they abandoned the large die strategy).

Too much conflicting info.

 

[formulav8]

I've never seen a 6970 for over $400.

I'm sorry, So I was off by $30 at the lowest. Either way this card offers better performance, features, and thermals at a better price. So whats the problem?

 

[kashwashwa]

7850 is not in the same category as those cards in thier respective time periods. The 7950 is.

4850
Released: June 2008
Cost: $199


5850
Release: Sept 2009
Cost: $259


The release was well under two years apart, and the price was $60 more.

The 79xx series is a totally different tier of pricing - why would you be comparing them to the midrange 4850 and 5850?

 

[Imouto]

It's all there summarized nicely in 1 page. You can go through GPUReview.com to find release dates. I am sure it's not overly difficult to find launch prices

There is a single HD 69XX on sale at Newegg. Only one. It just took 2 monts for AMD to get rid of all of them so for 6950 and 70 performance lvl you have to buy an overpriced new tech with old performance levels.

Will happen the same with HD 68XX and Nvidia will do exactly the same with their new lineup.

To buy the same performance than the previous gen we will be paying way more with the new gen.

Where is your god of GPUs now?

 

[formulav8]

I will be in shock and awe if NV via Kepler rides in on a white horse and delivers materially better performance/$.

Yeah nvidia has a great track record when it comes to being good to consumers... :whiste:

They're going to come and save the day :\

 

[RussianSensation]

To buy the same performance than the previous gen we will be paying way more with the new gen.

Where is your god of GPUs now?

Thanks for missing the point of the entire post where I clearly expressed 2 opposing views. I also said they both make sense depending on where you are in the upgrade cycle and if you are buying today or not. Please go re-read it again.

If the highest-end Kepler is not 40-50% faster than GTX580, and Kepler generation doesn't blow HD7950/7970 series in terms of performance, you can tell me I was wrong. :thumbsup:

If HD7870 being so close to HD7950 doesn't ring that something doesn't make any sense, I don't know what to tell you.

Tom's and AnandTech both ran 2560x1600 benches and HD7870, GTX580 and HD7950 are all more or less cuddled together. The thing is GTX580 level of performance is at most upper-midrange on NV's timeline scale between generations. That means by extension, HD7950 is upper-midrange at most, not high-end as it pretends to be right now at $450.

Don't believe me?

GeForce 3 Ti 500 < GeForce 4 4200Ti (midrange)
GeForce 4 4800 < FX5700U (midrange)
FX5950 Ultra < 6600GT (midrange)
6800 Ultra < 7800GT (midrange)
7900GTX < 8800GT (midrange)
8800GTX < GTX260 (upper-midrange)
GTX280/285 < GTX460 1GB (midrange)
GTX480/580 < "GTX560Ti replacement" (upper-midrange)

If NV actually follows its cadence as it has since GeForce 3, the current GTX580/HD7950 series will look like a toy compared to what's coming.

 

[Imouto]

Thanks for missing the point of the entire post where I clearly expressed 2 opposing views. Please go re-read it again.

If the highest-end Kepler is not 40-50% faster than GTX580, and Kepler generation doesn't blow HD7900 series out of the water, you can tell me I was wrong. :thumbsup:

But you're joking, what's wrong then?

 

[Termie]

I'm sorry, So I was off by $30 at the lowest. Either way this card offers better performance, features, and thermals at a better price. So whats the problem?

One month ago you could buy a 6970 for $300AR, and 6 months ago you could buy a GTX570 for $280AR. That's the problem. A $350 7870 is in exactly the same place on the price-performance curve. We are not getting more performance per dollar than we were last year.

The reality is that this generation will eventually just be a blip in graphics card history. AMD/Nvidia (and yes, I do believe that to some extent they are working together on this) simply had to correct for the price depression caused by the introduction of the HD4870.

In 2013, we'll get 7970 performance for $300, and all will be right again (for customers and manufacturers).

 

[lifeblood]

View #1: If you upgrade every 2-3 years, don't really care for GPU cycles and are in the market to upgrade right now:

People who are looking in the market to upgrade (say coming from HD4850/4870/5770) now don't really care about how great the older cards were 15-16 months ago. If they are looking to buy now...

Yea, that's me. My 4830 is still good at 1440x900, but I upgraded my monitor to 1920x1080 and its not keeping up.

I love the 7850 performance wise, I'm just not as enthused at the price. I don't know why, it seems fair, it just doesn't inspire me. I don't think NV will force it down, either. They'll follow AMD with the pricing.

I disagree that pricing is NVs fault. AMD and only AMD decides the price of their product. What NV is charging may be a factor, but at the end of the day its AMD that writes the price on the product. And when NV releases Kepler and prices them based on performance versus AMD 7000 series, that will be NVs fault. The problem is they're only two competitors in the high end GPU market. That's twice as many as you'd find in a monopoly, but its still only one more.