Discussion Radeon 6500XT and 6400

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Insert_Nickname

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May 6, 2012
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This thing barley(if at all) beats a 290x in performance and let's remember 290x could be had in 2015 for less than 300. So basically performance/watt parity after a whooping 7 years. Ridiculous.
Only saving grace is significantly lower power consumption. 107W vs 250W.

Then again, it is impressive that you can even get similar performance to a 290x out of a chip which uses a 64bit memory interface. The 290x had a humongous 512bit memory interface by comparison.
 

Mopetar

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Jan 31, 2011
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I think people looking at this from the perspective of desktop GPU should consider that this was likely designed to be more of an entry level notebook GPU. AMD have compared this against Polaris (570) which isn't going to be that impressive if you look at it from the perspective as a desktop card.

Hopefully the mobile version will step back on the clocks a bit just to get the TDP down, but it'll still likely have better performance than Polaris, which isn't bad for an entry-level laptop.
 

LightningZ71

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Hmm, the last mobile Polaris with any volume was the X560X that was roughly in the ballpark of the 1050 mobile. I hope that this can beat that...
 

Glo.

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Apr 25, 2015
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Hmm, the last mobile Polaris with any volume was the X560X that was roughly in the ballpark of the 1050 mobile. I hope that this can beat that...
Rough calculations suggest this little GPU will be around 55% of RX 6600 XT in games that do not exceed 4 GB VRAM.

So we are looking at RX 5500 XT performance.
 
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Glo.

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mlid6500xt.JPG
According to MLID this is hot the cost breakdown of 6500 XT GPUs look like. 30$ per GPU is shipping and 48$ per GPU is VRAM?

Each 2 GB chip is 24$ for 6500 XT, and each of RTX 3080 memory chips is 7$?

Like wha...?

Here's the full video:
 

Mopetar

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From the note it looks like it's saying that the cost for 1 GB of GDDR6 at the time of the launch of the 3080 was $7. It was $6 for the 5500 XT, but now it's doubled. That would make it $12 per GB and 4 GB would therefor cost $48. I don't know if any of that is true, but that's what it sounds like the argument for the cost is. It looks like shipping costs are 6x previous amounts as well, which is even more alarming.
 
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blckgrffn

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From the note it looks like it's saying that the cost for 1 GB of GDDR6 at the time of the launch of the 3080 was $7. It was $6 for the 5500 XT, but now it's doubled. That would make it $12 per GB and 4 GB would therefor cost $48. I don't know if any of that is true, but that's what it sounds like the argument for the cost is. It looks like shipping costs are 6x previous amounts as well, which is even more alarming.
Heck yes, import shipping alone is up 6x.

My costs per container, are up from about $4k and the last was $25k (revising as I glanced at the invoice), in two years. It’s my money and my job, so I noticed.

That doesn't include the "port congestion fee" of about $1k and the "port congestion fee fee" of about $380 because why not? What I am going to do about it?

Total cost of that one I talked about before was ~$7k, the more recent one was ~$29k with all the things. The base "shipping" fee definitely multiplied out though.

I think I’ve said it more than once but I’ll keep saying it, I suppose.

Last mile shipping is getting more expensive too, pretty much all the holiday upcharges are looking to become permanent, near as I can tell.

Get used to paying more for less across the board. *beats the proverbial but not real dead horse*
 
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LightningZ71

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I know that shipping costs have had an impact on returns as well. More vendors are choosing to eat the cost of a return instead of having low value items shipped back.
 

Glo.

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Apr 25, 2015
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Looking at the costs breakdown for this low-end GPU...

Im absolutely not shocked anymore at the ideas that low-end will be consumed by APUs/SoCs.

Its way better idea to scale the iGPUs up, and simplify the whole platform for low-end stuff, than to blow the costs up systematically for low-end hardware.

If powerful APUs/SoC will bring us better cost efficiency, than if we would buy CPU and GPU separate, while also delivering better products, and simpler builds - its always a win for the consumers.
 

Mopetar

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Jan 31, 2011
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Its way better idea to scale the iGPUs up, and simplify the whole platform for low-end stuff, than to blow the costs up systematically for low-end hardware.

If powerful APUs/SoC will bring us better cost efficiency, than if we would buy CPU and GPU separate, while also delivering better products, and simpler builds - its always a win for the consumers.
That does make the most sense logistically if you stop to think about it. Even though Navi 24 is quite small for a modern GPU, a Zen CCD is even smaller. There's some extra IO that needs to be added for an APU, but some of it would already be on the GPU die or could be swapped out for what's necessary. The packaging is simpler and the cost of things like the VRM, memory, etc. are shifted off of the product itself and on to other components. But those components are still necessary regardless so the customer doesn't really feel any of that cost shifting.

It's just cheaper to make a low-end GPU by slapping a CPU on to it and avoiding the costs associated with putting it on a separate board.
 
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blckgrffn

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That does make the most sense logistically if you stop to think about it. Even though Navi 24 is quite small for a modern GPU, a Zen CCD is even smaller. There's some extra IO that needs to be added for an APU, but some of it would already be on the GPU die or could be swapped out for what's necessary. The packaging is simpler and the cost of things like the VRM, memory, etc. are shifted off of the product itself and on to other components. But those components are still necessary regardless so the customer doesn't really feel any of that cost shifting.

It's just cheaper to make a low-end GPU by slapping a CPU on to it and avoiding the costs associated with putting it on a separate board.
It's kinda sad because I feel like that hampers the PC building hobby overall, but it is the logical progression of things. As we hit some diminishing returns on the CPU side, offering more GPU options (even more than they do now) will be one way to differentiate the value of different products.
 

guidryp

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Apr 3, 2006
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^

This really just seems like a terrible card from every angle. Tiny 64 bit memory bus. Crippled media encoder/decoder section, 4 Channel PCIe bus.

I can't imagine they would have built something this bad to sell for more than $100 in normal times. Going for $300-400 it's a sad joke.

I'd just stick with an iGPU to ride out these times, even if it meant not playing any games from the last decade, rather than buy this thing.
 

Insert_Nickname

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I'd just stick with an iGPU to ride out these times, even if it meant not playing any games from the last decade, rather than buy this thing.
A case could at least be made for the 6400, since it's low profile and apparently single slot. OEM only, so no cheap slightly-better-then-IGP or IGP-"replacement" on IGP-less Ryzens for you.

6500XT? With that pricetag? Forget it. If you just need a basic GPU, the T400 is right over there ---> (single slot, low profile, lower power consumption, current gen'ish video decoder/encoder and a full PCIe x16 interface. What's not to like?)
 

blckgrffn

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A case could at least be made for the 6400, since it's low profile and apparently single slot. OEM only, so no cheap slightly-better-then-IGP or IGP-"replacement" on IGP-less Ryzens for you.

6500XT? With that pricetag? Forget it. If you just need a basic GPU, the T400 is right over there ---> (single slot, low profile, lower power consumption, current gen'ish video decoder/encoder and a full PCIe x16 interface. What's not to like?)
Until the T400 gets sniffed out. I was buying "cheap" maxwell quadros until about 12 months ago, then they all doubled in price. I don't know when switch on this stuff gets flipped but I am considering buying a T400 just to have one for when it goes nuts.
 

Mopetar

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Jan 31, 2011
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This really just seems like a terrible card from every angle. Tiny 64 bit memory bus. Crippled media encoder/decoder section, 4 Channel PCIe bus.
I'm not sure if the PCI lanes will really cause much of a problem unless using an older board that doesn't have PCIe 4.0 on it. Unless the card doesn't have enough VRAM, the PCIe bandwidth isn't particularly important. TPU did some tests on PCIe scaling with a 3080 and it was a lot less than you might imagine.



There's also a question as to how much the infinity cache (even as small as it is) will help alleviate the issue. The far bigger concern is going to be the 4 GB of VRAM, which when looking at the HUB video seems to be a far bigger issue in many games or some games at particular resolutions than anything else.

If this did somehow manage to stay at or very near the $200 MSRP then it would be a great value in the current market. The idea world where this is a $100 card just doesn't exist anymore, but it seems as though this isn't going to be available at MSRP, at least not in any sizable quantity and not for long after launch, and at $300+ it's not a particularly good value even if it had more PCIe lanes or a better media encoder/decoder.
 

Panino Manino

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Jan 28, 2017
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^

This really just seems like a terrible card from every angle. Tiny 64 bit memory bus. Crippled media encoder/decoder section, 4 Channel PCIe bus.

I can't imagine they would have built something this bad to sell for more than $100 in normal times. Going for $300-400 it's a sad joke.

I'd just stick with an iGPU to ride out these times, even if it meant not playing any games from the last decade, rather than buy this thing.
Raja's ghost still haunts RTG?
Bad jokes aside, how is this even possible? How can AMD make a card as bad as this? How can consumers expect to see competition with Nvidia when AMD sells aberrations like this? Worse, Intel is coming. With Intel coming to this market AMD puts effort to hurt their brand and trust with consumers. They're opening an opportunity for Intel.
 

blckgrffn

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Raja's ghost still haunts RTG?
Bad jokes aside, how is this even possible? How can AMD make a card as bad as this? How can consumers expect to see competition with Nvidia when AMD sells aberrations like this? Worse, Intel is coming. With Intel coming to this market AMD puts effort to hurt their brand and trust with consumers. They're opening an opportunity for Intel.
I don’t expect Intel to be a savior. If they can bump all their SKUs up a $100 bill or two because of more advantageous comparisons to like AMD and Nvidia SKUs, they will.

Profits demand it.

The 6500XT will likely sell because it exists and is on the shelf.
 

guidryp

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I'm not sure if the PCI lanes will really cause much of a problem unless using an older board that doesn't have PCIe 4.0 on it. Unless the card doesn't have enough VRAM, the PCIe bandwidth isn't particularly important. TPU did some tests on PCIe scaling with a 3080 and it was a lot less than you might imagine.



There's also a question as to how much the infinity cache (even as small as it is) will help alleviate the issue. The far bigger concern is going to be the 4 GB of VRAM, which when looking at the HUB video seems to be a far bigger issue in many games or some games at particular resolutions than anything else.

If this did somehow manage to stay at or very near the $200 MSRP then it would be a great value in the current market. The idea world where this is a $100 card just doesn't exist anymore, but it seems as though this isn't going to be available at MSRP, at least not in any sizable quantity and not for long after launch, and at $300+ it's not a particularly good value even if it had more PCIe lanes or a better media encoder/decoder.
As they point out at HWUB, the 3080 is a 10GB card so it's much less dependent on bandwidth.

A 4GB 4xPCIe card is just cost reduced to an egregious level. You can see here that even on PCIe Ver 4.0 the card is still significantly penalized, and the PCIe Ver 3.0 is crushed, and there are LOTS of PCIe Ver 3.0 Motherboards, and they aren't from the ancient past, this is a VERY recent transition.

 
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Mopetar

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Jan 31, 2011
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I'll give AMD a little bit of the benefit of the doubt on this and assume that potential issues that may exist due to the limited memory bus size or the smaller PCIe bus aren't as much of an issue due to infinity cache. I think the bigger problem is the 4 GB of VRAM which really limits this card because there are already several games where that simply isn't enough even in 1080p. Of course it's a bit of a double edged sword because it also limits the desirability of the card for certain categories of miners and if the 4 GB version of the card sees a lot of markup, you can be sure that the 8 GB version will be scalped far, far worse.

The real reason that this chip seems to be squeezed six ways from Sunday is precisely because AMD needs to be able to get as many of these on a wafer as possible. It's not just that it helps them in terms of profitability, but because they don't have nearly as many wafers as they need to be able to meet demand right now. It also doesn't matter if they aren't great for gaming because someone will scoop them up for mining, even if it's not as profitable as ETH.
 

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