R580: Here by January and smoking 2 512 7800s in SLI

[BFG10K]

I can pull up quotes with you saying straight bilinear AF was great on the R9700Pro, aliasing, mip banding and all.

Yes, it was still far better than the NV30's non-application setting.

I can also pull up quotes of you from not that long ago talking about how non angle dependant AF was a pipe dream and it wasn't plausible for today's GPUs as the performance hit would be too steep.

In order for this comment to have any merit you'd have to claim the R520's AF quality matches the NV25's. Is this the claim you're making?

If not your comment is meaningless.

BTW- Still waiting for your frothing at the mouth rants about ATi's 'cheats' in F.E.A.R.

Why should I froth? If I don't like them I can disable them.

 

[v8envy]

No way in hell will you see a R580 available in January. I'd be willing to bet you $20 on it.

Reasons? ATI still has a huge inventory of X800 and X850s they're trying to get rid of. Never mind that the R520 hasn't truly saturated the retail channels. How many mom&pop outfits have the X1300s and X1600s? Answer: not that many.

There is not a snowball's chance in hell that ATI will cannibalize its admitedly late product in just 3 months. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

They may paper launch and offer sneak previews to try and recapture the performance leader crown early next year, but there is absolutely 0 chance you'll be able to get your hands on one of those cards, at any price.

 

[imported_Shaq]

ATI was quite clear they will be introducing a "PE version" of X1800XT to compete with 7800GTX 512.

One thing known is the R580 has few production issues and it will actually cost quite a bit less for ATI to mass produce this card over the R520

Both the PE and R580 are scheduled for a January release? Why would they do this when the PE 1800XT will likely cost more than the faster R580? Something doesn't sound right with the timetables. It would make more sense to release a PE in January and the R580 later on, possibly April-May. I believe in the Inquirer (FWIW) it mentioned that R580 wouldn't be at Cebit next year. Of course that could change.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: v8envy
No way in hell will you see a R580 available in January. I'd be willing to bet you $20 on it.

Reasons? ATI still has a huge inventory of X800 and X850s they're trying to get rid of. Never mind that the R520 hasn't truly saturated the retail channels. How many mom&pop outfits have the X1300s and X1600s? Answer: not that many.

There is not a snowball's chance in hell that ATI will cannibalize its admitedly late product in just 3 months. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

They may paper launch and offer sneak previews to try and recapture the performance leader crown early next year, but there is absolutely 0 chance you'll be able to get your hands on one of those cards, at any price.

they are doing "just that" with their x800 x-fire.

Perhaps r520 is just a Xmas 'stopgap' . . . i expect we will see the same launch-manner with r580 as r520 . . . In January, ati should launch the r580 x1350s and x1650s followed by the r580 x1900xl and finally the r580 x1900xt/PE a couple of months later . . . spread out over three months to allow for the short run of r520s to sell . . . people like me - with radeon 9800xts would be expected to upgrade to r520 with those with the x850xts migrating to the r580s.

more-or-less

edited

 

[RussianSensation]

150% increase seems way too good to be true. This can't possibly come from a refresh product, which is what R580 is i thought? Thats has also never been a card I am aware off that provided a 150% increase from 1 generation to the other across the board. And to beat 2x512GTX boards, you better have 25000+ fill-rate. That means 16 pipes would have to be 100% more efficient and the card clocked to like 850mhz on the core alone.

Doubtful....and it'll canibalize all current high-end sales for x1800xt, and xl cards. If they could make R580 this fast.....they would have to bring new mid and low-end cards (only logical given scaling from their new high end card). I doubt ATi can do all this before January given X1600XT cards aren't even out. Also January release for ATI means 1 year from now widespread availability.....

 

[jiffylube1024]

Originally posted by: RussianSensation
150% increase seems way too good to be true. This can't possibly come from a refresh product, which is what R580 is i thought? Thats has also never been a card I am aware off that provided a 150% increase from 1 generation to the other across the board.

I'm pretty sure the 9700 Pro accomplished this feat over the 8500; Same thing with the 9800XT to the X800XT.

And to beat 2x512GTX boards, you better have 25000+ fill-rate. That means 16 pipes would have to be 100% more efficient and the card clocked to like 850mhz on the core alone.

2X 512GTX doesn't give twice the performance of a single card.

Doubtful....and it'll canibalize all current high-end sales for x1800xt, and xl cards. If they could make R580 this fast.....they would have to bring new mid and low-end cards (only logical given scaling from their new high end card). I doubt ATi can do all this before January given X1600XT cards aren't even out. Also January release for ATI means 1 year from now widespread availability.....

If R580 is faster than the 512MB GTX then they could price it at $700 easily. According to this line of thought the 512MB GTX was a worthless part because it is cannibalizing the sales of the 256MB GTX.

More likely the X1800XT will drop to the $350-400 range by Jan/Feb as yields improve to compete better with the GeForce cards, which have already undergone price drops and are right now better deals (except for the 512MB GTX).

 

[v8envy]

Originally posted by: apoppin


Perhaps r520 is just a Xmas 'stopgap' . . . i expect we will see the same launch-manner with r580 as r520 . . . In January, ati should launch the r580 x1350s and x1650s followed by the r580 x1900xl and finally the r580 x1900xt/PE a couple of months later . . . spread out over three months to allow for the short run of r520s to sell . . . people like me - with radeon 9800xts would be expected to upgrade to r520 with those with the x850xts migrating to the r580s.

I still don't buy it. The manufacturing capacity for the r520 based chips had to have been negotiated long ago, with commitments made in respect to volume to both the producers and consumers of said chips.

With the amount of marketing ATI has done for this product launch you just KNOW they didn't plan on the shortest product run ever.

Like it or not, the enthusiast community will have to buy quite a bit of this generation's ATI product before ATI presents us with a better one.

It won't happen on a 3 month refresh cycle. If the R580 was as ready as the original poster said, it'd probably be pre-announced already, or released as the engine behind the X1800XT. If the 9800 buyers are expected to upgrade to the R520 and X800 buyers to the R580 I would also expect a delay between the R520 and R580 launches which is similar to the R9800 to X800 launches.

 

[BFG10K]

150% increase seems way too good to be true

A 9700 Pro was 3-4 times faster than a Ti4600 in certain situations.

 

[RussianSensation]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

150% increase seems way too good to be true

A 9700 Pro was 3-4 times faster than a Ti4600 in certain situations.

I know what you mean though, but what I meant more specifically was 150% increase across the same company. It's unfair to compare 9700pro to 4600 or 8500 because I believe they had an inefficient supersampling AA method. Today's cards have more or so comparable AA methods that arent as much of a hit in performance. So I dont think it's a true indicator of raw performance since the Geforce 4 and 8500 were very inefficient for 'quality' settings. But clearly in pure speed settings, they weren't 3-4 times slower.

Also x800xt over 9800xt I'd say is 2x or 100%. I just can't see a company releasing a new generation card in November and then in January releasing a card 150% faster (the time period is too short for this type of gap). Again, refresh products are not whole new generations. And if R580 is considered a new generation, I certainly do not believe that ATI is able to bring generations every 1 quarter. Remember, 7800GTX 256 was released about 6 months from 512mb version, and Nvidia is on top of their game right now.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: v8envy

Originally posted by: apoppin


Perhaps r520 is just a Xmas 'stopgap' . . . i expect we will see the same launch-manner with r580 as r520 . . . In January, ati should launch the r580 x1350s and x1650s followed by the r580 x1900xl and finally the r580 x1900xt/PE a couple of months later . . . spread out over three months to allow for the short run of r520s to sell . . . people like me - with radeon 9800xts would be expected to upgrade to r520 with those with the x850xts migrating to the r580s.

I still don't buy it. The manufacturing capacity for the r520 based chips and had to have been negotiated long ago, with commitments made in respect to volume to both the producers and consumers of said chips.

With the amount of marketing ATI has done for this product launch you just KNOW they didn't plan on the shortest product run ever.

Like it or not, the enthusiast community will have to buy quite a bit of this generation's ATI product before ATI presents us with a better one.

It won't happen on a 3 month refresh cycle. If the R580 was as ready as the original poster said, it'd probably be pre-announced already, or released as the engine behind the X1800XT.

and i certainly don't buy your speculation
:thumbsdown:

There is zero doubt - according to AT's article [not theInq] - that r580 is expected in January . . . .

 

[thecoolnessrune]

lol this troll/rant thread needs locked.

 

[v8envy]

and i certainly don't buy your speculation
:thumbsdown:

There is zero doubt - according to AT's article [not theInq] - that r580 is expected in January . . . .

I saw the article. R580 scheduled for launch in January. Although I have my doubts, it may 'launch' in the same way the X1800 launched last summer.

So, how shall we arrange a $20 bet? By 'available in January' I mean at least one customer was able to buy an R580 based card through a retail or e-tail channel with shipment occuring before midnight US pacific time, 31 January, 2006. If that happens, I lose. If no such customer speaks up by say mid February 2006, the other party loses.

 

[Munky]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
Brilinear, not straight bilinear. There was actually a fairly sizeable difference.

Bilinear... brilinear... it's still a IQ hack, and as such does not qualify the nv30 for superior AF quality at those settings. It's a matter of opinion on what's more pathetic: flower AF or mipmap bands crawling in front of you.

So far evidence is suggesting it stumbles badly when you are utilizing pixel shaders combined with smaller complexity/high quantity vertex shaders.

Links?

When they can't ship their lower tier product as it is, they are already pushing against noise/heat issues and their pricing only allows them to introduce it at $700 then I would tend to say yes.

So far the noise/heat has not been much far off from a 7800gt/x. All it takes is a better cooler and it would be a non-issue. And while the supply has been less than stellar, the 512gtx is not widely available either.

The x850xtpe was an attempt at a halo card.

The x850xt pe was the fastest single card of last gen, and did not suffer from the same availability isues as the earlier x800xt pe. I dont see what would make it a failure.

The watercooled NV30 outran the R9700Pro in almost everything. Didn't make it any less of a failure.

That's kinda hard to believe without links, especially when you consider the heavy hit it took from AA/AF. Watercooling can only increase the gpu speed, it does nothing to remedy the problems of a 128-bit bus, float register shortage, and inability to efficiently run non-optimized DX9 code.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: v8envy

and i certainly don't buy your speculation
:thumbsdown:

There is zero doubt - according to AT's article [not theInq] - that r580 is expected in January . . . .

I saw the article. R580 scheduled for launch in January. Although I have my doubts, it may 'launch' in the same way the X1800 launched last summer.

So, how shall we arrange a $20 bet? By 'available in January' I mean at least one customer was able to buy an R580 based card through a retail or e-tail channel with shipment occuring before midnight US pacific time, 31 January, 2006. If that happens, I lose. If no such customer speaks up by say mid February 2006, the other party loses.

last time . . . ATI did NOT announce r520/x1800 last Summer [although it was "expected"] . . . they announced it just before availability.

Now you are changing "expected" to "available" to hedge your bet - one that i have not accepted [it ain't legal, btw, so i won't bite - here]

just feel free to call me on it if r580 isn't here in January. i hope to still be here.

 

[BFG10K]

I know what you mean though, but what I meant more specifically was 150% increase across the same company.

This was easily possible - remember the 9700 Pro effectively had double the pipelines and double the memory bandwidth over a Ti4600/8500. You don't even need to compare SSAA/MSAA to see such a speedup.

Even now there are situations where a 7800 GTX 512 is 50%-60% faster than a 7800 GTX 256 thanks to its extra memory.

The watercooled NV30 outran the R9700Pro in almost everything.

But if we bring a water cooled 9700 Pro into the picture we can quickly see this argument would go nowhere.

 

[jiffylube1024]

Originally posted by: RussianSensation

Originally posted by: BFG10K

150% increase seems way too good to be true

A 9700 Pro was 3-4 times faster than a Ti4600 in certain situations.

Also x800xt over 9800xt I'd say is 2x or 100%. I just can't see a company releasing a new generation card in November and then in January releasing a card 150% faster (the time period is too short for this type of gap). Again, refresh products are not whole new generations. And if R580 is considered a new generation, I certainly do not believe that ATI is able to bring generations every 1 quarter. Remember, 7800GTX 256 was released about 6 months from 512mb version, and Nvidia is on top of their game right now.

You have a point, and I was misreading the OP, or the OP was misreading something else. A 150% increase does sound highly unlikely. I was thinking of 150% of the performance of R520, meaning a 50% increase.

Regardless, this is unsubstantiated speculation any way you look at it, and unless Rollo is chiming in with alleged "insider information" regarding a next gen card, speculation is regarded with contempt on these boards these days...

 

[v8envy]

last time . . . ATI did NOT announce r520/x1800 last Summer [although it was "expected"] . . . they announced it just before availability.

Now you are changing "expected" to "available" to hedge your bet - one that i have not accepted [it ain't legal, btw, so i won't bite - here]

My original quote: 'No way in hell will you see a R580 available in January. I'd be willing to bet you $20 on it.' I'm not being a semantics lawyer. I'm perfectly fine with eating crow if I'm wrong about manufactuers wanting to get some mileage out of their PCB designs and manufacturing agreements, and ATI wanting to get some mileage out of the R520 product design cycle. The $20 bet was simply to indicate how sure I am of my position. As Rollo said elsewhere, there are single bottles of beer that cost more.

Heck, you can still call me wrong if ATI launches the R580 in early February. If ATI says they've launched, that counts.

You are correct, ATI did indeed launch on the 5th of Nov and hit the retail dates of slightly over a month later. My addled brain must somehow be merging crossfire announcements and my waiting for ATI's product since early summer with the official ATI R520 launch, or something equally stupid.

just feel free to call me on it if r580 isn't here in January. i hope to still be here.

I know I will be. This seasons games weren't compelling enough to get me to upgrade my creaky, leaky 2 year old gaming rig with a 128 meg R9700. I'll be interested in keeping up with video card tech right up to the moment TES: Oblivion ships.

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: apoppin"supposed to launch?" Who said?

As usual you are missing something important: ATI did NOT announce the r520 until it was ready . . . just over 6 weeks ago and delivered on their promise of availability for 3 product launches [out of 4 . . . the x800 xfire was a disaster]. Even their flagship xt is at least as available as the 7800-ultra.

IF ATI failed [somehow] on their announcement, they would lose face and fans. They cannot afford to do that.

i am certain we will see the r580 launched in January and product available shortly thereafter* my prediction. call me on it.

*unless Anand's article misquoted


edit: even theInq isn't so sure of their date as they are only saying r580 is 'taped out' . . . if so, that should make it February.
edited

dave orton. the current "announcement" you speak of is no more official than the previous ones.. where while there was no official press release, several sources from sapphire to dave orton himself had state either a) early summer or b) june.

"Although obviously keen not to give too much in the way of definitive answers, in the main body of the call ATI?s CEO, Dave Orton, acknowledged that there had been some issues with their R520 product but went on to say that they are now ?back on track? and although they had penned in an ?early summer? launch they were now looking for a ?late summer? launch. Officially summer ends in late September, but making significant launches a little before then, could be difficult largely because great swathes of Europe are on holiday in August, which could mean that September will be a likely release date candidate. The timescales talked about appear to be consistent with needing at least an extra revision of the chip from which they planned, and they also noted that R&D expenses had increased due to ?a jump in prototyping cost related to the development of future products on 90nm process technology?. Curiously, though, they still appear to be happy with the state of TSMC?s 90nm process, citing the readiness, capacity and yield as good."

quick search of google will bring up many references for either of these...

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

Originally posted by: apoppin"supposed to launch?" Who said?

As usual you are missing something important: ATI did NOT announce the r520 until it was ready . . . just over 6 weeks ago and delivered on their promise of availability for 3 product launches [out of 4 . . . the x800 xfire was a disaster]. Even their flagship xt is at least as available as the 7800-ultra.

IF ATI failed [somehow] on their announcement, they would lose face and fans. They cannot afford to do that.

i am certain we will see the r580 launched in January and product available shortly thereafter* my prediction. call me on it.

*unless Anand's article misquoted


edit: even theInq isn't so sure of their date as they are only saying r580 is 'taped out' . . . if so, that should make it February.
edited

dave orton. the current "announcement" you speak of is no more official than the previous ones.. where while there was no official press release, several sources from sapphire to dave orton himself had state either a) early summer or b) june.

"Although obviously keen not to give too much in the way of definitive answers, in the main body of the call ATI?s CEO, Dave Orton, acknowledged that there had been some issues with their R520 product but went on to say that they are now ?back on track? and although they had penned in an ?early summer? launch they were now looking for a ?late summer? launch. Officially summer ends in late September, but making significant launches a little before then, could be difficult largely because great swathes of Europe are on holiday in August, which could mean that September will be a likely release date candidate. The timescales talked about appear to be consistent with needing at least an extra revision of the chip from which they planned, and they also noted that R&D expenses had increased due to ?a jump in prototyping cost related to the development of future products on 90nm process technology?. Curiously, though, they still appear to be happy with the state of TSMC?s 90nm process, citing the readiness, capacity and yield as good."

quick search of google will bring up many references for either of these...

please link your partial quotes

 

[agile]

So many of these posts are insightful. Let's see if I can add something here:

I have 3 SLI rigs. I had 2 6800 GTs, 2 6800 Ultras, and 2 700 gtx 256mb in SLI. I was very pleased with the 7800 gxts in particular and was particularly excited about the r520. Seems like I was following it for months.

All the hype was overhyped though. Seems like I give The Inquirer a little too much credit. 32 pipes huh? I was blinded and ordered an x1800 XT hoping to get a Crossfire board soon and a CF Edition x1800. I bought the x1800 XT even though the 512 78k was pending. I wanted to give ATI a chance after a few let downs.

The x1800 XT is a fine card though and performs quite well on its own, but my goal was to have two SLI rigs and at least one Crossfire. Really testing the end user experience was what I was looking forward to.

With 512mb 7800s I feel the asking price is to much at the moment even though I may decide to get two. I sold my 6800 Ultras and DFI nf4 SLI-dr for a Crossfire setup. I was am going to replace my DFI with a a8n32, run SLI in it, and then replace my a8n Deluxe with a Crossfire board and add a CF edition x1800 to the single x1800 XT I have now.

Now what's funny is that the Crossfire boards aren't even out yet except for the buggy DFI. The Asus a8n, Abit at8, and MSI rd480 have yet to hit the streets and these are the first gen Crossfire boards. They only have dual 8x pci-e cap. even though they have a Uli SB, thank god. I was thiking of getting one, but they pale in comparison to the a8n32.

So with these boards coming out in Jan, are we to expect the mobo makers to scrap these boards for boards more befitting the r580, or even the x1800 XT? I am not buying all this. I like my x1800 XT but I'd feel reamed if they released a r580 in Jan. I highly doubt it though.

There is no availability of Crossfie boards, the CF edition cards are delayed, etc.

I am no fanboi of a particular brand, but ATI has been letting me down for a year and a half, and they just can't seem to deliver. I just like what's best. They have had fisacos for months. Exclusivity on the MR 9800 to Dell, limited availability on x800 XT PE (I actually owned one), and paper launch after paper launch.

The Crossfire technology is exciting and I am dying to play it against my SLI rigs. NOt just for the performance but for all other features like game compatability, etc.

However SLi has been maturing and the drivers keep getting better. Enabling SLI on the fly, user profiles, better overclocks with Coolbits, etc.

I'd like to see them do well, because we all benefit from Nvidia's and ATI competition. But I am getting sick of the specualtion, and am going to sell my x1800 XT if I decided to order a 512mb 78K. or two.

At least I can be enjoying them now rather than specualting about 32x Crossfire boards coming out, Crossfire Edition cards, and an r580 on the horizon. Plus the holiday season is a cash cow to these guys, and it seems like ATI is going to miss the boat and alienate x1800 XT buyers if the r580 is released in Jan.

When the r580 does get released it will be nice to see what it is capable of and see the response by Nvidia. Plus as we are nearing the M2 socket transition, the longer they wait to release a Crosffire board with a8n32 like features, the harder it is to justify.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: agile
So many of these posts are insightful. Let's see if I can add something here:

I have 3 SLI rigs. I had 2 6800 GTs, 2 6800 Ultras, and 2 700 gtx 256mb in SLI. I was very pleased with the 7800 gxts in particular and was particularly excited about the r520. Seems like I was following it for months.

All the hype was overhyped though. Seems like I give The Inquirer a little too much credit. 32 pipes huh? I was blinded and ordered an x1800 XT hoping to get a Crossfire board soon and a CF Edition x1800. I bought the x1800 XT even though the 512 78k was pending. I wanted to give ATI a chance after a few let downs.

The x1800 XT is a fine card though and performs quite well on its own, but my goal was to have two SLI rigs and at least one Crossfire. Really testing the end user experience was what I was looking forward to.

With 512mb 7800s I feel the asking price is to much at the moment even though I may decide to get two. I sold my 6800 ULtras and DFI nf4 SLI-dr.

Now what's funny is that the Crossfire boards aren't even out yet except for the buggy DFI. The Asus a8n, Abit at8, and MSI rd480 have yet to hit the streets and these are the first gen Crossfire boards. They only have dual 8x pci-e cap. even though they have a Uli SB, thank god. I was thiking of getting one, but they pale in comparison to the a8n32.

So with these boards coming out in Jan, are we to expect the mobo makers to scrap these boards for boards more befitting the r580. I am not buying all this. I like my x1800 XT but I'd feel reamed if they released a r580 in Jan. I highly doubt it though.

I am no fanboi of a particular brand, but ATI has been letting me down for a year and a half, and they just can't seem to deliver. They have had fisacos for months. Exclusivity on the MR 9800 to Dell, limited availability on x800 XT PE (I actually owned one), and paper launch after paper launch.

I'd like to see them do well, because we all benefit from Nvidia's and ATI competition. But I am getting sick of the specualtion, and am going to sell my x1800 XT if I decided to order a 512mb 78K.

At least I can be enjoying them now rather than specualting about 32x Crossfire boards coming out, Crossfire Edition cards, and an r580 on the horizon. PLus the holiday season is a cash cow to these guys, and it seems like ATI is going to miss the boat and alienate x1800 XT buyers if the r580 is released in Jan.

are you Rollo's alternate account?
:Q

anyway, something for you to read:
Nvidia blows Christmas market - AGP 6800 gone, ATI only winner

 

[agile]

Lol. I read some of Rollo's posts and he does have compelling arguments. It is just frustrating especially with technology being the way it is. On time launches are so important as people benefit immmediately instead of being overtaken by technology from the same copany released in the same time frame.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: agile
Lol. I read some of Rollo's posts andhe does have compelling arguments . It is just frustrating especially with technology being the way it is. On time launches are so important as people benefit immmediately instead of being overtaken by technology from the same copany released in the same time frame.

you are the alternate account he threatened
:Q




UNTIL the 7800 series - THIS year - "on time launches" were the EXCEPTION, not the "rule". Everyone PL'd . . . intel, AMD, nVidia and ATI. ATI misfired xfire and had 'bad luck' with r520 . . . IF they continue with PLs, THEN they are doomed . . . so far there is no "trend" - yet.

 

[shiznit]

the r580 has 150% the performance of the r520 and beats two 7800gtx 512's in sli? no way, this makes no sense at all. one 7800gtx 512 has almost 150% the performance of a the x1800xt (r520) so how the hell could the r580 beat 2 of them in sli. Rumors, rumors.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: shiznit
the r580 has 150% the performance of the r520 and beats two 7800gtx 512's in sli? no way, this makes no sense at all. one 7800gtx 512 has almost 150% the performance of a the x1800xt (r520) so how the hell could the r580 beat 2 of them in sli. Rumors, rumors.

nonsense

. . . or can you back-up your "almost 150%" statement?