R520 Definitely 16 Pipes, Confirmed at AnandTech

[nRollo]

Looks like the "wait and see" stance might have been a "waste of time". I've said many times that I'll buy a R520, but sheesh- they could give me some reason to buy it?!

With this news I'm having a hard time caring whether they ever do release the thing.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: tvdang7
so will have less pipes affect anything ? cuz of course more sounds better.

The core clock speed can compensate for it.

For example:

12 pipes * 1000 MHz core: 12000 Mpixels
24 pipes * 500 MHz core: 12000 Mpixels

Also it depends on IPC (instructions per clock) and the architecture in general.

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: Rollo
Looks like the "wait and see" stance might have been a "waste of time". I've said many times that I'll buy a R520, but sheesh- they could give me some reason to buy it?!

With this news I'm having a hard time caring whether they ever do release the thing.

Rollo every time you buy an ATI videocard, no matter how good it is, it reminds me of a "Two Minutes Hate" from George Orwell's "1984". Even if the thing had 128 pipelines you would still go back to nVidia, claiming they have better drivers and you prefer green PCBs.

 

[Gamingphreek]

xtknight: Yes they have the same number (16) of pipers per ROP.

I think people are definitely jumping the gun here. Lets use some common sense:

1. "Extreme pipes" is almost surely just a marketing ploy. Giving the architecture another texture unit (16x2) would be absolutely pointless. It is going to have 16 Pipelines, PERIOD.

2. The 512bit Ring bus sounds very interesting. If it works as i have heard it should give some interesting gains. Could someone actually explain to me what this actually is though, im not 100% sure i know.

3. Those clockspeeds while cannot amount in some cases to the G70's Pixel Pipes and what not, they will still compete. Remember the Pixel Pipes right now for ATI, as shown, are just barely holding them back in terms of Fill Rate. They actually beat the G70 in terms of Memory Bandwidth. The downside to this is, as we have seen, low yields, and more than likely higher power usage. More pipes will always (AFAIK) be more efficient than ramping up clockspeeds.

I wouldn't count ATI out just yet. Nvidia has has almost all of this out for the past couple months, yes; however, some of the things we are hearing sound pretty interesting (512bit bus and whatnot).

As for the AA and AF. That was not due to a Memory bandwidth advantage. In no way are the high end cards, majorly affected by memory bandwidth anymore. That was simply due to a more efficient AA and AF architecture.

Munky, even though the G70 only has 16ROP's they are not saturated. No amount of making them more efficient is going to change anything. THe Pixels are being processed right now, faster than they can be output. Perhaps if the R520 can compute and calculate the pixels faster then they might approach the limits of the 16 ROP's. As for the 5800U comment. That really has no basis. The 5800U had a 4x2 architecture, so 8 pipes only occurred when multi-texturing. If Nvidia had given it a full 8x1 architecture, it is likely that it would have been more competitive. However, the 9700 etc still had a MUCH more efficient architecture (IE: Didn't lose an APU to AF processing, R3xx series used Rotated Grid AA etc...). In other words, the amount of pipelines, while it did significantly affect 5800/5900 performance, it was not the deciding factor.

-Kevin

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: tvdang7
so will have less pipes affect anything ? cuz of course more sounds better.

The core clock speed can compensate for it.

For example:

12 pipes * 1000 MHz core: 12000 Mpixels
24 pipes * 500 MHz core: 12000 Mpixels

Also it depends on IPC (instructions per clock) and the architecture in general.

IPC does not apply in GPU's in the way you are referring to.

Sickbeast, somehow i doubt that lol.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: Rollo
Looks like the "wait and see" stance might have been a "waste of time". I've said many times that I'll buy a R520, but sheesh- they could give me some reason to buy it?!

With this news I'm having a hard time caring whether they ever do release the thing.

Rollo every time you buy an ATI videocard, no matter how good it is, it reminds me of a "Two Minutes Hate" from George Orwell's "1984". Even if the thing had 128 pipelines you would still go back to nVidia, claiming they have better drivers and you prefer green PCBs.

What the? That's not true- I've actually liked all my ATI cards, except the rev. 1 8500 that didn't work very well.

Kind of annoys me they're selling what looks like it may be a R420 with revamped shaders this time though.

 

[BFG10K]

Kind of annoys me they're selling what looks like it may be a R420 with revamped shaders this time though.

You mean like 5800->5900->6800->7800?

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: Rollo
Looks like the "wait and see" stance might have been a "waste of time". I've said many times that I'll buy a R520, but sheesh- they could give me some reason to buy it?!

With this news I'm having a hard time caring whether they ever do release the thing.

Rollo every time you buy an ATI videocard, no matter how good it is, it reminds me of a "Two Minutes Hate" from George Orwell's "1984". Even if the thing had 128 pipelines you would still go back to nVidia, claiming they have better drivers and you prefer green PCBs.

What the? That's not true- I've actually liked all my ATI cards, except the rev. 1 8500 that didn't work very well.

Kind of annoys me they're selling what looks like it may be a R420 with revamped shaders this time though.

A "Two Minutes Hate"; well in "1984" it was when everyone got together and there was a picture of someone that was mutually reviled on a large display screen. Everyone would work themselves up into a frenzy and publicly display their hatred, chanting and going all berzerk and stuff. Essentially, this is what happens when you buy a new ATI videocard.

I hope you realize that this is all in good fun and I still think you're a good guy and all. :beer:

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

Kind of annoys me they're selling what looks like it may be a R420 with revamped shaders this time though.

You mean like 5800->5900->6800->7800?

Nope.

Your example:
4/2, 4/2, 16/6, 24/8 architectures.

I don't think I'm alone in thinking a 16 pipe card in Q4 2005 is somewhat of a letdown. Perhaps the market and benches will prove me wrong, time will tell.

 

[Gamingphreek]

6800 was, for all intents and purposes, a new architecture.

Additionally, the 7800 also was revolutionary for Nvidia because they ditched shader replacement.

ATI in the 3xx and the R4xx series simply tweaked things, which is fine (It compete very well). However, i dont know how anyone is making judgement on the R520. Even though, on the outside, it looks like the same thing with ramped clockspeeds, im sure there is a little bit more than meets the eye (512bit Ring, H.264 (Nvidia also has it), HDTV Decoder is not out of question, but improbable for all but AIW cards).

-Kevin

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: Rollo
Looks like the "wait and see" stance might have been a "waste of time". I've said many times that I'll buy a R520, but sheesh- they could give me some reason to buy it?!

With this news I'm having a hard time caring whether they ever do release the thing.

Rollo every time you buy an ATI videocard, no matter how good it is, it reminds me of a "Two Minutes Hate" from George Orwell's "1984". Even if the thing had 128 pipelines you would still go back to nVidia, claiming they have better drivers and you prefer green PCBs.

What the? That's not true- I've actually liked all my ATI cards, except the rev. 1 8500 that didn't work very well.

Kind of annoys me they're selling what looks like it may be a R420 with revamped shaders this time though.

A "Two Minutes Hate"; well in "1984" it was when everyone got together and there was a picture of someone that was mutually reviled on a large display screen. Everyone would work themselves up into a frenzy and publicly display their hatred, chanting and going all berzerk and stuff. Essentially, this is what happens when you buy a new ATI videocard.

I hope you realize that this is all in good fun and I still think you're a good guy and all. :beer:

LOL- that is pretty good. :beer:

 

[ronnn]

Originally posted by: SickBeast


Rollo every time you buy an ATI videocard, no matter how good it is, it reminds me of a "Two Minutes Hate" from George Orwell's "1984". Even if the thing had 128 pipelines you would still go back to nVidia, claiming they have better drivers and you prefer green PCBs.

Personally I expect a few here to become converts of playing at ultra high resolutions, especially if ati takes an obvious lead with the r520 or r580.

I expect the r520 to be 10 - 15% slower than the 7800gtx, but they have bought time and the r580 may come sooner than expected.

 

[BFG10K]

I'm sorry, the two posts above are nothing more than blatant double standards.

Your example: 4/2, 4/2, 16/6, 24/8 architectures.

Pipes now it is? But your above comment took issue with "tweaked shaders".

If it's pipes how come the R420 "was giving you nothing new" when it went from the 8x1 to 16x1?

I don't think I'm alone in thinking a 16 pipe card in Q4 2005 is somewhat of a letdown.

What about two 4 pipe cards in 2003/2004 when the competition had double that amount?

6800 was, for all intents and purposes, a new architecture.

No it wasn't. It was simply a tweaked version of the previous hardware.

Additionally, the 7800 also was revolutionary for Nvidia because they ditched shader replacement.

So they caught up to ATi. How is that revolutionary?

 

[Insomniak]

I swear to God half of you are here just to argue and get into e-penis contests.


And BFG, jesus, you've yelled at Rollo enough times before. Just link to a previous thread.

 

[ronnn]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

3. Those clockspeeds while cannot amount in some cases to the G70's Pixel Pipes and what not, they will still compete. Remember the Pixel Pipes right now for ATI, as shown, are just barely holding them back in terms of Fill Rate. They actually beat the G70 in terms of Memory Bandwidth. The downside to this is, as we have seen, low yields, and more than likely higher power usage. More pipes will always (AFAIK) be more efficient than ramping up clockspeeds.

-Kevin

Several sources including Tom's have state the yields are fine now. The places pushing the low yields are the same places that kept repeating that silly 32 pipe rumour and they are covering their tracks. As for power, I haven't read anything anywhere on that - but I thought that generally a smaller process meant lower power consumption? I agree that more pipes should be a big advantage.

 

[Gamingphreek]

No it wasn't. It was simply a tweaked version of the previous hardware.

Ok... umm yes it was. WHile it was based onthe older architecture, it was HEAVILY tweaked; as i said for all intents and purposes it was a new architecture.

So they caught up to ATi. How is that revolutionary?

It may not be for ATI, however, Nvidia who had gone for 3 years with shader replacement, had finally left it out. That is a huge step forward for Nvidia. WHile performance may not reflect it, it is infinitely easier to code for the 7 series. I am also sure that the IQ is somewhat improved as Nvidias Shader Replacement was different than ATI's (ATI substitutes the code for math calculations, while Nvidia substitued for something else (sorry i dont remember)).

Sorry that they didn't have the "technological power" that ATI had but that was a huge jump for Nvidia, in a very small amount of time.

What about two 4 pipe cards in 2003/2004 when the competition had double that amount?

Are you trying to start an argument BFG. You know as well as anyone here that the FX series were as much a 4 pipe card as they were an 8 pipe card. 4 Pipes in single texturing and 8 in multi-texturing. Had DX9 not caught on that would have worked fine... however it did catch on faster than intended, and therefore it was merely bad planning on Nvidias part.

-Kevin

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: Rollo
Looks like the "wait and see" stance might have been a "waste of time". I've said many times that I'll buy a R520, but sheesh- they could give me some reason to buy it?!

With this news I'm having a hard time caring whether they ever do release the thing.

Rollo every time you buy an ATI videocard, no matter how good it is, it reminds me of a "Two Minutes Hate" from George Orwell's "1984". Even if the thing had 128 pipelines you would still go back to nVidia, claiming they have better drivers and you prefer green PCBs.

What the? That's not true- I've actually liked all my ATI cards, except the rev. 1 8500 that didn't work very well.

Kind of annoys me they're selling what looks like it may be a R420 with revamped shaders this time though.

A "Two Minutes Hate"; well in "1984" it was when everyone got together and there was a picture of someone that was mutually reviled on a large display screen. Everyone would work themselves up into a frenzy and publicly display their hatred, chanting and going all berzerk and stuff. Essentially, this is what happens when you buy a new ATI videocard.

I hope you realize that this is all in good fun and I still think you're a good guy and all. :beer:

LOL- that is pretty good. :beer:

Yeah, I read it this morning on my way to work on the metro; I pictured you getting your hate on with an X1800XT. j/k

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: ronnn

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

3. Those clockspeeds while cannot amount in some cases to the G70's Pixel Pipes and what not, they will still compete. Remember the Pixel Pipes right now for ATI, as shown, are just barely holding them back in terms of Fill Rate. They actually beat the G70 in terms of Memory Bandwidth. The downside to this is, as we have seen, low yields, and more than likely higher power usage. More pipes will always (AFAIK) be more efficient than ramping up clockspeeds.

-Kevin

Several sources including Tom's have state the yields are fine now. The places pushing the low yields are the same places that kept repeating that silly 32 pipe rumour and they are covering their tracks. As for power, I haven't read anything anywhere on that - but I thought that generally a smaller process meant lower power consumption? I agree that more pipes should be a big advantage.

I wouldn't be so bold as to say yields are fine. 700mhz memory is pushing the limits, not to mention a brand new 90nm technology running at 600mhz. I would say yeilds are probably acceptable, but not fine. THen again, i know no more than you so that is merely speculation on my part.

While the smaller process should yield lower power, AFAIK, it takes significantly more power to ramp up the clockspeed (inherently ramping up voltage) than to simply put more pipes in. They give the same end result, but i would be more inclined to go with more pipes than a higher clock frequency.

-Kevin

For the record.... i wouldn't trust toms hardware, they are easily bought out for biased reviews.

 

[Killrose]

Wow, AT has got all other sites pretty well news scouped on ATi details looking at the new info posted on the main AT review site.

 

[imported_OnYX]

somehow I believe ATi has lost this time. A couple of months ago NV demonstrated the 16 pipe age is history, so what?!?
At least I'll keep my hands off the 520 series cards either waiting for the 580 (it better be out soon after the 520s) or grabbing a 7800 GT instead. I can't stand dual slot cards.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: ronnn

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

3. Those clockspeeds while cannot amount in some cases to the G70's Pixel Pipes and what not, they will still compete. Remember the Pixel Pipes right now for ATI, as shown, are just barely holding them back in terms of Fill Rate. They actually beat the G70 in terms of Memory Bandwidth. The downside to this is, as we have seen, low yields, and more than likely higher power usage. More pipes will always (AFAIK) be more efficient than ramping up clockspeeds.

-Kevin

Several sources including Tom's have state the yields are fine now. The places pushing the low yields are the same places that kept repeating that silly 32 pipe rumour and they are covering their tracks. As for power, I haven't read anything anywhere on that - but I thought that generally a smaller process meant lower power consumption? I agree that more pipes should be a big advantage.

I wouldn't be so bold as to say yields are fine. 700mhz memory is pushing the limits, not to mention a brand new 90nm technology running at 600mhz. I would say yeilds are probably acceptable, but not fine. THen again, i know no more than you so that is merely speculation on my part.

While the smaller process should yield lower power, AFAIK, it takes significantly more power to ramp up the clockspeed (inherently ramping up voltage) than to simply put more pipes in. They give the same end result, but i would be more inclined to go with more pipes than a higher clock frequency.

-Kevin

For the record.... i wouldn't trust toms hardware, they are easily bought out for biased reviews.

I completely agree with what kevin said.
Performance isnt the only question. Power consumption. Heat. Noise.
A card that is clocked at 600mhz would cause alot of heat. Plus using 1.26ns Samsung GDDR3 means the prices would be expensive. I mean really expensive.

Isnt the prices of the GTXs like 470ish now? A $480 7800GTX vs $599 X1800 XT.
Who is actually looking forward to buying the high end??

 

[Cookie Monster]

Originally posted by: OnYX
somehow I believe ATi has lost this time. A couple of months ago NV demonstrated the 16 pipe age is history, so what?!?
At least I'll keep my hands off the 520 series cards either waiting for the 580 (it better be out soon after the 520s) or grabbing a 7800 GT instead. I can't stand dual slot cards.

7800 GTX is a single slot card.
Or the 90nm based 7 series?

 

[malG]

Originally posted by: Cookie Monster

Isnt the prices of the GTXs like 470ish now? A $480 7800GTX vs $599 X1800 XT.

QFT

 

[KristopherKubicki]

I removed the comment about Ultra-High resolutions and the fill rate. I tried to push too many ideas into one clever sentence and now I've just confused everyone and even myself a little. I also just got my wisdom teeth pulled today and I am hopped up on so much Codine that everything is a little too fuzzy to begin with anyway.

Kristopher

 

[Cookie Monster]

Originally posted by: KristopherKubicki
I removed the comment about Ultra-High resolutions and the fill rate. I tried to push too many ideas into one clever sentence and now I've just confused everyone and even myself a little. I also just got my wisdom teeth pulled today and I am hopped up on so much Codine that everything is a little too fuzzy to begin with anyway.

Kristopher

Nice. Just been Rage3d and B3Ding.. all talking about the "ultra-high resolution" statement that u mentioned.. :laugh: