R520 ? ?clearly dominates the fastest competitive hardware?

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: Frackal
I don't think he said "pipes are all that count"

You would be right, and thank you. I said the BS a lot of people are spewing about pipes not meaning anything anymore was in itself, BS. Does anyone have an X850XTPE and willing to participate? It would involve downclocking core and mem.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: ronnn

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Yeah, I see your still hooked on all that's going on right now. I'm talking about ATI's message to their stockholders a few weeks ago. Before any of this crap went down.

At that time, PR spin was that the R520 would be "competitive" with nvidia's top end offering and was not certain it would exceed nv's top of the line offering if ATI could not reach their core speed goal (which I believe was 700MHz). Now suddenly the R520 is said to dominate the competitor's highest offering? So which is it? Competitive? or Dominates? I think ATI is going to do everything they can to release a 700MHz vaporware R520 (X1800XTPE) but won't be available in any quantity. What is so hard to believe about that? You know ATI's history for the past 2 gens/refreshes. (X800/X850).

Very happy to know Ati will release vapourware. Why if they don't Nvidia will have to forget about fixing that shimmer and add some shake.

They responded very quickly AFAIK. Removed the problem in some games, reduced it in others. Do they only get one chance to fix it completely? Don't understand how you can compare one with the other. Please elaborate instead of leaving what you truly meant to my imagination. Thanks.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Looking to get into the fray eh? Ok. I'll take you up on that. I just set up my system with a nice eVGA 7800GTX and would be more than happy to shut you up. Name the game, benchmark, whatever and I'll take whack at it. Because what you said, makes no sense whatsoever. Name it. Something that is repeatable so others can try as well if they wish.

What he said actually makes perfect sense. He took it contrapositively though.

Well, I disagree, and offered to test this theory.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Well, I disagree, and offered to test this theory.

To prove this you can't just go willy nilly with a bunch of different architectures. You have to perform a controlled test where one graphics card is faster but has the same number of pipelines. You're only proving one case. Ideally you'd get an NVIDIA card with x pipelines and y clocks and compare it to another NVIDIA card of x pipelines and y clocks to see if anything else really mattered. And besides is there anything that says graphics chips must be made with pipelines? Look at the pipeline stages of the Athlon 64 and P4 Prescott CPUs. What is it 14 vs. 31 or something? I don't see a point in testing this because it's common sense there are no two identical architectures. As of late though, the pipeline/clocks have given a decent indication because the R420 was based off the R300.

 

[ronnn]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: ronnn

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Yeah, I see your still hooked on all that's going on right now. I'm talking about ATI's message to their stockholders a few weeks ago. Before any of this crap went down.

At that time, PR spin was that the R520 would be "competitive" with nvidia's top end offering and was not certain it would exceed nv's top of the line offering if ATI could not reach their core speed goal (which I believe was 700MHz). Now suddenly the R520 is said to dominate the competitor's highest offering? So which is it? Competitive? or Dominates? I think ATI is going to do everything they can to release a 700MHz vaporware R520 (X1800XTPE) but won't be available in any quantity. What is so hard to believe about that? You know ATI's history for the past 2 gens/refreshes. (X800/X850).

Very happy to know Ati will release vapourware. Why if they don't Nvidia will have to forget about fixing that shimmer and add some shake.

They responded very quickly AFAIK. Removed the problem in some games, reduced it in others. Do they only get one chance to fix it completely? Don't understand how you can compare one with the other. Please elaborate instead of leaving what you truly meant to my imagination. Thanks.

Certainly, but we are talking about official driver releases and the "history" of how these companies react to adversity. :beer:

edit: Sorry, what "I am" writing about.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: ronnn

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: ronnn

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Yeah, I see your still hooked on all that's going on right now. I'm talking about ATI's message to their stockholders a few weeks ago. Before any of this crap went down.

At that time, PR spin was that the R520 would be "competitive" with nvidia's top end offering and was not certain it would exceed nv's top of the line offering if ATI could not reach their core speed goal (which I believe was 700MHz). Now suddenly the R520 is said to dominate the competitor's highest offering? So which is it? Competitive? or Dominates? I think ATI is going to do everything they can to release a 700MHz vaporware R520 (X1800XTPE) but won't be available in any quantity. What is so hard to believe about that? You know ATI's history for the past 2 gens/refreshes. (X800/X850).

Very happy to know Ati will release vapourware. Why if they don't Nvidia will have to forget about fixing that shimmer and add some shake.

They responded very quickly AFAIK. Removed the problem in some games, reduced it in others. Do they only get one chance to fix it completely? Don't understand how you can compare one with the other. Please elaborate instead of leaving what you truly meant to my imagination. Thanks.

Certainly, but we are talking about official driver releases and the "history" of how these companies react to adversity. :beer:

edit: Sorry, what "I am" writing about.

Oh. Semantics. Gotcha.

 

[ronnn]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: ronnn

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: ronnn

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Yeah, I see your still hooked on all that's going on right now. I'm talking about ATI's message to their stockholders a few weeks ago. Before any of this crap went down.

At that time, PR spin was that the R520 would be "competitive" with nvidia's top end offering and was not certain it would exceed nv's top of the line offering if ATI could not reach their core speed goal (which I believe was 700MHz). Now suddenly the R520 is said to dominate the competitor's highest offering? So which is it? Competitive? or Dominates? I think ATI is going to do everything they can to release a 700MHz vaporware R520 (X1800XTPE) but won't be available in any quantity. What is so hard to believe about that? You know ATI's history for the past 2 gens/refreshes. (X800/X850).

Very happy to know Ati will release vapourware. Why if they don't Nvidia will have to forget about fixing that shimmer and add some shake.

They responded very quickly AFAIK. Removed the problem in some games, reduced it in others. Do they only get one chance to fix it completely? Don't understand how you can compare one with the other. Please elaborate instead of leaving what you truly meant to my imagination. Thanks.

Certainly, but we are talking about official driver releases and the "history" of how these companies react to adversity. :beer:

edit: Sorry, what "I am" writing about.

Oh. Semantics. Gotcha.

Ok, I guess "vaporware" is a form of semantics. More recent history had several on this site offering to buy the x800xl if it actually sold at mrsp. (Not sure what this has to do with anything, but it will take more than the word of the nvidia team here to convince me that it will be vaporware).

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Well, I disagree, and offered to test this theory.

To prove this you can't just go willy nilly with a bunch of different architectures. You have to perform a controlled test where one graphics card is faster but has the same number of pipelines. You're only proving one case. Ideally you'd get an NVIDIA card with x pipelines and y clocks and compare it to another NVIDIA card of x pipelines and y clocks to see if anything else really mattered. And besides is there anything that says graphics chips must be made with pipelines? Look at the pipeline stages of the Athlon 64 and P4 Prescott CPUs. What is it 14 vs. 31 or something? I don't see a point in testing this because it's common sense there are no two identical architectures. As of late though, the pipeline/clocks have given a decent indication because the R420 was based off the R300.

So, by your logic, this will never happen, never be tested, and we will never have a difinitive answer to the question, "Does the amount of pipelines a graphics core has matter?". I'll agree that efficiency of a pipeline certainly plays a part, but sheer numbers and parallelization is quite difficult to disregard. Arghh. It's like talking to brick walls.

My point. X1800XT's 16 pipelines are not efficient enough to overcome a 24 pipe card at similar clock speeds. Its not going to happen. At least not this go-round. And so the X1800XT has to be UBER-cranked to the teeth to possibly approach the 24 pipe card.

Now. Argue my point.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: ronnn

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: ronnn

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: ronnn

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Yeah, I see your still hooked on all that's going on right now. I'm talking about ATI's message to their stockholders a few weeks ago. Before any of this crap went down.

At that time, PR spin was that the R520 would be "competitive" with nvidia's top end offering and was not certain it would exceed nv's top of the line offering if ATI could not reach their core speed goal (which I believe was 700MHz). Now suddenly the R520 is said to dominate the competitor's highest offering? So which is it? Competitive? or Dominates? I think ATI is going to do everything they can to release a 700MHz vaporware R520 (X1800XTPE) but won't be available in any quantity. What is so hard to believe about that? You know ATI's history for the past 2 gens/refreshes. (X800/X850).

Very happy to know Ati will release vapourware. Why if they don't Nvidia will have to forget about fixing that shimmer and add some shake.

They responded very quickly AFAIK. Removed the problem in some games, reduced it in others. Do they only get one chance to fix it completely? Don't understand how you can compare one with the other. Please elaborate instead of leaving what you truly meant to my imagination. Thanks.

Certainly, but we are talking about official driver releases and the "history" of how these companies react to adversity. :beer:

edit: Sorry, what "I am" writing about.

Oh. Semantics. Gotcha.

Ok, I guess "vaporware" is a form of semantics. More recent history had several on this site offering to buy the x800xl if it actually sold at mrsp. (Not sure what this has to do with anything, but it will take more than the word of the nvidia team here to convince me that it will be vaporware).

Yup. One of those guys was me. Offering to buy the XL. However I found a deal on an XTPE and went that way instead. So, I was about to buy one. Just found something more. I even remember offering a deal to Ackmed and dared him to find one under MSRP, buy it, and I would pay him full MSRP plus shipping for it. Of course he declined stating it was ignorant and idiotic as usual. LOL.

This time around though, I don't think I will be making that offer. Unless something "magical" happens with the release of the X1800XT and it blows away a 7800GTX by a VERY large margin, I don't want that "potential" space heater in my rig. Mine is hot enough with the GTX and a Prescott.

 

[ronnn]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

My point. X1800XT's 16 pipelines are not efficient enough to overcome a 24 pipe card at similar clock speeds. Its not going to happen. At least not this go-round. And so the X1800XT has to be UBER-cranked to the teeth to possibly approach the 24 pipe card.

Now. Argue my point.

Well I guess as many here said the x850 line is just a r300 with extra pipelines and as such could not match the 6800 line in features - only speed. Also took higher clockings to do that. Not that I would simplify the x850 line in that way as my x800xt pe just clobbers my 9700pro. Now the 7800 line is very similar to the 6800 line, but with more pipelines (but not more efficient). So for the r520 to compete, the pipelines have to be more efficient and/or it has to be able to run at a higher core speed. How much higher and how high it can run with good yields is beyond my understanding of the architecture and the design (and the subject in general ). So if the design is good enough with some nice extra features Ati could do ok here. Ok here is the time for the nvidia team to show off their deeper understanding of gpu's and tell us exactly how they know there will be a heat/power issue. Please don't quote theinquirer or vrzone unless you can find those extra 16 pipes.

edit: So how large would the margin have to be, before Ati wins?

 

[ronnn]

Keep an eye open tomorrow, a tiny bit of the curtain may be lifted...

As per Dave Bauman here.

And as usual I have no idea what he means. :laugh:

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
So, by your logic, this will never happen, never be tested, and we will never have a difinitive answer to the question, "Does the amount of pipelines a graphics core has matter?". I'll agree that efficiency of a pipeline certainly plays a part, but sheer numbers and parallelization is quite difficult to disregard. Arghh. It's like talking to brick walls.

My point. X1800XT's 16 pipelines are not efficient enough to overcome a 24 pipe card at similar clock speeds. Its not going to happen. At least not this go-round. And so the X1800XT has to be UBER-cranked to the teeth to possibly approach the 24 pipe card.

Now. Argue my point.

Difficult to say since the card isn't even on store shelves yet (you or I don't know how the R520 cards perform). It probably will never be tested, no. Because nobody cares what's inside it, as long as it performs.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
How about you run the 7800gtx at 300/800 and then try preach to me that piplines are all that counts?

Yeah, can we stop with the stupid arguments now?

Looking to get into the fray eh? Ok. I'll take you up on that. I just set up my system with a nice eVGA 7800GTX and would be more than happy to shut you up. Name the game, benchmark, whatever and I'll take whack at it. Because what you said, makes no sense whatsoever. Name it. Something that is repeatable so others can try as well if they wish.

3dmark05, and publish the resluts.

 

[Maluno]

For ATI's sake, I hope there is some truth to his words...

 

[Maluno]

Holy crap... 113 posts in 8 hours!

EDIT: 114

 

[Turtle 1]

http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.aspx?NewsId=14184

http://forum.teamxbox.com/archive/index.php/t-258710.html

http://freespace.virgin.net/m.warner/RoadmapQ406.htm

 

[hans030390]

Originally posted by: Maluno
Holy crap... 113 posts in 8 hours!

EDIT: 114

buh.......crap...

i dont believe it will dominate...but it will be good. possibly better than the 7800gtx.

 

[moonboy403]

1) then nvidia's gonna come out with something to counter ati
2) then ati's gonna come out something better to counter nvidia
3) go to number 1

end of story