r420 & nv40 tidbits from anandtech

[RussianSensation]

Originally posted by: VIAN
Every day, the Nv40 keeps getting more attractive. Now we just have to see performance. But feature wise, the NV40 definitely takes the cake.

It only has 1 feature that R420 lacks and that is PS3.0 support. Having 16 pipelines is not a feature it is a technical spec. The performance figures of real games speak volumes and that is what matters. And so far we do not know those numbers to make any type of assumptions on which card will be better. Did I mention Nvidia's requirement for 2 molex connectors? hmm......Do you really think PS3.0 matters? By the time Unreal 3 comes out with support for that R500 and NV whatever will be out. Remember the games that take advantage of the new cards do not come out for a year usually, and do not become mainstream for 2 years after the card's introduction. PS2.0 is gonna be implemented in 99% of the games. You have to realize most ppl still own 4200s and 8500s or derivates (or IGP/Intel Extreme). Game develops will slowly transfer to PS2.0; so imagine how long it will take for 2.0 to become adapted and then only 3.0 will start to appear. That's my opinion though.

 

[RussianSensation]

Originally posted by: shady06

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Originally posted by: sodcha0s
The price of the 5800u was definitely a joke when it was released.

The price of everything is a joke when it's released.

i scored my 9700 pro for $330 the day it was released, worth ever penny

Imagine having a friend or someone who can get it for you using the 50% corporate discount ATI offers....now that's a deal . Now where can we find such a friend for X800? hmm.....keep searching boys.

 

[Acanthus]

NV40 also features Video Encoding in hardware. (what codecs and what speeds are completely unknown).

But it is an additional feature.

I agree that PS3.0 is COMPLETELY useless, as there isnt even 1 title announced IN DEVELOPMENT with PS3.0 in mind.

With PS2.0 titles finally hitting the shelves, and cards coming out that can actually use those features at halfway decent settings, im excited to see to these new games in motion

 

[BenSkywalker]

I agree that PS3.0 is COMPLETELY useless, as there isnt even 1 title announced IN DEVELOPMENT with PS3.0 in mind.

Actually, FarCry already supports PS 3.0, wee bit faster then what we saw with PS 2.0 support

hmm......Do you really think PS3.0 matters?

Most of the posters on this board should be saying it is the most important feature this generation based on their prior stance. Look at the BS we listened to for the last 19 months about PS 2.0 and we now are up to a whopping three games that support PS 2.0, two of them worth owning(and one of them already supports 3.0 ). Obviously it will be a nigh completely useless feature just as PS 2.0 support is on the R3x0 boards(they are far too slow) although we will likely see considerably more support for the first 19 months of PS 3.0s lifetime then we did for PS 2.0(they are already 33% of the way to matching it and no parts have shipped yet).

 

[rbV5]

NV40 also features Video Encoding in hardware. (what codecs and what speeds are completely unknown).

r300 already supports hardware video encoding, so I'm pretty sure r420 will as well.

 

[rbV5]

Obviously it will be a nigh completely useless feature just as PS 2.0 support is on the R3x0 boards(they are far too slow)

Depends on the title, CMR4 runs well on r300 with PS 2.0 shaders.

 

[nRollo]

Obviously it will be a nigh completely useless feature just as PS 2.0 support is on the R3x0 boards(they are far too slow) although we will likely see considerably more support for the first 19 months of PS 3.0s lifetime then we did for PS 2.0(they are already 33% of the way to matching it and no parts have shipped yet).

They may be far too slow Ben, but they are only HALF as slow as 5900s! THAT is the difference and superiority my friend! Would you rather ride a tortoise, or a cow, across the country?!?!?! A cow is TWICE as fast!
Would you rather compete at the Indy 500 in a Geo Metro, or a Ford Focus? The Ford is TWICE as fast!
Would you rather take a 5hp 12' motor boat across the Atlantic, or a 15hp 12' motor boat across the Atlantic? The 15hp is twice as fast!

-BFG10K


Would you not use any of todays slow cards to run PS2 so you don't have to deal with slow PS2? Would you not race in the Indy 500 in a slow car? Would you not ride a tortoise or a cow? Would you not cross the Atlantic in either boat?

-Rollo

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: rbV5

Obviously it will be a nigh completely useless feature just as PS 2.0 support is on the R3x0 boards(they are far too slow)

Depends on the title, CMR4 runs well on r300 with PS 2.0 shaders.

I wasn't aware CMR4 is released? I just did a search at EB and only saw Playstation and Xbox versions?

Is this another, "well this demo works sweet, you'll be seeing when the games get here!" post?

 

[rbV5]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: rbV5

Obviously it will be a nigh completely useless feature just as PS 2.0 support is on the R3x0 boards(they are far too slow)

Depends on the title, CMR4 runs well on r300 with PS 2.0 shaders.

I wasn't aware CMR4 is released? I just did a search at EB and only saw Playstation and Xbox versions?

Is this another, "well this demo works sweet, you'll be seeing when the games get here!" post?

Its available in the UK already, should be in the States soon.

Is this another, "well this demo works sweet, you'll be seeing when the games get here!" post?

No.

 

[rbV5]

Apparently, you can buy it now from Codemasters as well.
Link

 

[ZimZum]

Originally posted by: Pete
Um, ATi's new CEO is ex-ArtX. I think that's a small clue that ArtX is now in ATi's blood. Seriously, ArtX engies probably merged with ATi, just like 3dfx engies merged with nVidia. Remember, ATi bought ArtX.

Artx ( ATI's West team) are the ones who designed the r300 and the original r400 which is now the r500. One of the smartest moves ATI has made was aquiring Artx.

 

[Insomniak]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Features don't mean much if you can't use them.

This is obviously wrong. As any ATI fan here can tell you, having better PS2 performance for the last year and a half has been VERY important, even in the absence of PS2 games.

Ok, let me cut your rant short by saying that I agree with you on the fact that the 5800U wasn't nearly as bad as the press liked to say it was.

That said, there are some games out there that are partially ps2.0, in other words they use some ps2.0 shaders. Not many, but a few. Nvidia and ATi's hardware both support ps2.0, the difference being it's much more playable on ATi in terms of framerate.

If you support a feature but can only run it at 5 FPS, what's the point?

Bearing that in mind, NV cards are still playable under ps2.0 - just not as fast as current ATi hardware. My point is that if ANY card comes out supporting a high level spec but can't run it at playable frame rates, it's pretty pointless.

 

[g3pro]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

I agree that PS3.0 is COMPLETELY useless, as there isnt even 1 title announced IN DEVELOPMENT with PS3.0 in mind.

Actually, FarCry already supports PS 3.0, wee bit faster then what we saw with PS 2.0 support

hmm......Do you really think PS3.0 matters?

Most of the posters on this board should be saying it is the most important feature this generation based on their prior stance. Look at the BS we listened to for the last 19 months about PS 2.0 and we now are up to a whopping three games that support PS 2.0, two of them worth owning(and one of them already supports 3.0 ). Obviously it will be a nigh completely useless feature just as PS 2.0 support is on the R3x0 boards(they are far too slow) although we will likely see considerably more support for the first 19 months of PS 3.0s lifetime then we did for PS 2.0(they are already 33% of the way to matching it and no parts have shipped yet).

but ATi only loses 50% of its performance due to PS2.0 rather than nVidia's 60-70% drop in performance! how dare you say that is meaningless!

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: RussianSensation

Originally posted by: VIAN
Every day, the Nv40 keeps getting more attractive. Now we just have to see performance. But feature wise, the NV40 definitely takes the cake.

It only has 1 feature that R420 lacks and that is PS3.0 support. Having 16 pipelines is not a feature it is a technical spec. The performance figures of real games speak volumes and that is what matters. And so far we do not know those numbers to make any type of assumptions on which card will be better. Did I mention Nvidia's requirement for 2 molex connectors? hmm......Do you really think PS3.0 matters? By the time Unreal 3 comes out with support for that R500 and NV whatever will be out. Remember the games that take advantage of the new cards do not come out for a year usually, and do not become mainstream for 2 years after the card's introduction. PS2.0 is gonna be implemented in 99% of the games. You have to realize most ppl still own 4200s and 8500s or derivates (or IGP/Intel Extreme). Game develops will slowly transfer to PS2.0; so imagine how long it will take for 2.0 to become adapted and then only 3.0 will start to appear. That's my opinion though.

I thought the NV40 also offered a realtime MPEG encoder on die. Is that a technical spec or a feature?

 

[rbV5]

I thought the NV40 also offered a realtime MPEG encoder on die. Is that a technical spec or a feature?

Its a rumored feature, but I'll bet you can count on it.

 

[nRollo]

Its available in the UK already, should be in the States soon.

Quote
Is this another, "well this demo works sweet, you'll be seeing when the games get here!" post?


No.

Even if Colin Macrae is available from one vendor, and the 9700Pro plays it ok, it's been a year and a half that having better PS2 support has been next to meaningless for the 9700Pro. Now that first two real games PS2 support has mattered on have arrived, in the same month cards that will likely make the 9700 Pro look painfully are going to be hitting the shelves in a few weeks.

If you're a high end gamer, you likely will buy a nV40 or R420.

I reiterate, PS2 performance on a 9700Pro is meaningless, unless A. You're a high end gamer who lost his job and has to hold onto his 9700Pro B. You're a kid or poor gamer who's going to limp along with 9700Pro level PS2 performance while the rest of us are enjoying it at much higher settings and framerates

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: Insomniak

Originally posted by: Rollo

Features don't mean much if you can't use them.

This is obviously wrong. As any ATI fan here can tell you, having better PS2 performance for the last year and a half has been VERY important, even in the absence of PS2 games.

Ok, let me cut your rant short by saying that I agree with you on the fact that the 5800U wasn't nearly as bad as the press liked to say it was.

That said, there are some games out there that are partially ps2.0, in other words they use some ps2.0 shaders. Not many, but a few. Nvidia and ATi's hardware both support ps2.0, the difference being it's much more playable on ATi in terms of framerate.

If you support a feature but can only run it at 5 FPS, what's the point?

Bearing that in mind, NV cards are still playable under ps2.0 - just not as fast as current ATi hardware. My point is that if ANY card comes out supporting a high level spec but can't run it at playable frame rates, it's pretty pointless.

I agree with this.

IMO though, PS2 shaders on current level hardware is a moot point because the two real games (I don't count TRAOD) where the ATIs DX9 advantage is apparent are coming out in the month that much better DX9 cards are coming out, so who cares what previous ATI cards will do when they'll seem slow in a few weeks anyway?

 

[chsh1ca]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181
Rollo, you should know by now that it's cool to hate the FX5800 because of it's loud cooling design. Go easy on the kids... they're just trying to fit in.

WHAT'S THAT? I CAN'T HEAR YOU!
Seriously though, anyone who thinks FlowFX is loud should consider the noise generated by any sort of high-speed hard drives (15k RPM SCSI drives, for instance). Anyone who is looking for high performance is going to be making a tradeoff in terms of noise level.
I did finally get to hear a FlowFX 5800U, and while it is certainly much louder than even my PSU's fan, it isn't as 'deafening' as people make it out to be.

 

[lordtyranus2]

B. You're a kid or poor gamer who's going to limp along with 9700Pro level PS2 performance while the rest of us are enjoying it at much higher settings and framerates

There's quite a few kids around.

The only problem I noticed with the 5800 series is that it was louder and more expensive than the 9700 pro, while not offering any performance increase, and in all fairness was probably slightly slower than the 9700 pro.

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: chsh1ca

Originally posted by: Jeff7181
Rollo, you should know by now that it's cool to hate the FX5800 because of it's loud cooling design. Go easy on the kids... they're just trying to fit in.

WHAT'S THAT? I CAN'T HEAR YOU!
Seriously though, anyone who thinks FlowFX is loud should consider the noise generated by any sort of high-speed hard drives (15k RPM SCSI drives, for instance). Anyone who is looking for high performance is going to be making a tradeoff in terms of noise level.
I did finally get to hear a FlowFX 5800U, and while it is certainly much louder than even my PSU's fan, it isn't as 'deafening' as people make it out to be.

Definately not in the same league as a dust buster.

 

[rbV5]

Even if Colin Macrae is available from one vendor, and the 9700Pro plays it ok, it's been a year and a half that having better PS2 support has been next to meaningless for the 9700Pro.

So, whats that got to do with anything? The game is available, some gamers have been waiting to play it, some will buy it and play it. Probably on hardware far less powerful then R3xx/NV3x and enjoy it. R3xx/NV3x owners will benefit from higher IQ (yes, I do think NV drivers will likely deliver adequate performance for NV3x cards) and still offer excellent performance.

Now that first two real games PS2 support has mattered on have arrived, in the same month cards that will likely make the 9700 Pro look painfully are going to be hitting the shelves in a few weeks.

New card releases won't affect the performance of my cards at all. Even down to my 8500le still offers excellent gaming performance when matched with the proper title, and I expect that that won't change. Myself, I'm waiting for the cards and the games before making any hardware/software decisions, but I can be confident, that at least for CMR4, I can buy the game and play it with eye candy and excellent performance. The rest is just meaningless babble IMHO.

 

[Elcs]

Once again we come down to an opinion.

Hell, I crack out my spectrum from time to time. At £3 a game (when I was young), I got FAR more gameplay out of a game than I do these days at £30-40 a go.

I'll play Chaos or Who Dares Wins II on my Spectrum and they play flawlessly.... I played Freespace2 all the way through again this past week, it still looks gorgeous even compared to something nice and up-to-date like X2: The Threat and it played flawlessly.... I played UT2k4 offline with all options on, 1024x768 with x4/x8, it looked good and the slowdown was well within my margin of acceptable net lag...

Im sure someone on here would be happy playing Far Cry at 10-30 fps average. I used to play CS with the worse frame rates ever... my K6-2 300 and god know what GFX card couldnt handle it and i have no idea how many deaths i could have avoided with better frames.... but I enjoyed myself which is the whole point of games.

If its playable and enjoyable to someone, good on them. If it isnt playable and enjoyable to someone else then thats their problem. Just because someone likes something and someone else doesnt, doesnt mean you can flame them intentionally or not.

 

[RussianSensation]

At this point i dont care which card is faster, all i want is doom 3, half life 2 and S.T.A.L.K.E.R.

Games are where it's at; if you have the best card, but no sick games to take advantage of it, that's no good.
Now if you have those games but your card is like Geforce 1 you won't be playing them, but will be watching an 8-bit slide show. Life is unfair. It's a vicious circle!

 

[SneakyStuff]

Rollo, chill out, I don't care how many benchmarks you find, nVidia clearly stated "The 5800 Ultra is the fastest graphics processor ever to be seen" And it wasn't, the 5700 Ultra was designed to compete with the 9600xt, which it DOES, i'm not attacking you, i'm stating a fact, you REALLY need to find something better to do than go from thread to thread bashing people who make you angry because you have a case of "I have it so it's the besticism"

 

[dguy6789]

Originally posted by: Rollo

But seriously, the 5800 is uhhh a joke compared to similarly priced 9700 and 9800s.

I've owned and used all three Zephyr, have you?

Since you don't seem to know much about video cards, let me help you:

5800U faster than 9800Pro 256MB at Doom3

5800U as fast as 9700Pro at UT2003, at the 2 usable resolutions

5800U faster at Q3 than 9700Pro

5800U faster than 9700 Pro 2/3 resolutions at Jedi Knight 2

5800U basically tied with 9700Pro at Commanche

So ...uhhhhhh...Zephyr...uhhhhhh......why ...does...uhhhhhh....Anand's testing.....uhhhhh......seem to say the 5800Ultra is equal to the 9700Pro .....and....uhhh....you say...it's..uhhhh....seriously....uhhh...a joke?


Damnit. Here's one of those damn conundrums college never prepped me for:

On one hand I've got the "most knowledgeable" trio of Zephyr, Sneaky Stuff, and Shminu saying my 5800Ultra is a "joke". They have probably never seen one.

On the other hand, I've got this Anand Lai Shrimpi guy who run this site showing it's about equal to it's competition, the 9700 Ultra.

On top of all this, I've got my own long term eperience with all three cards, which seems to agree with that guy Anand: the 5800U is about the same as my 9700Pro was, and a bit less than my 9800Pro was.

I don't know if we'll ever be able to know the answer to this mystery: who to believe, Anand and personal experience, or the 3 "wise" men.

Perhaps there is only one conclusion that can be drawn:
My 5800U has over double the pixel and texel fillrate, more memory bandwidth, and much higher performance than Sneaky Stuff's 5700U, and cost me about the same as his 5700 U cost. Yet Sneaky for some reason thinks the far superior 5800 U is no good.

Fear not Sneaky. My four year old will get the 5800U soon, and I'll buy a nV40 or R420, then you can respect my video card again.

rollo, the 5800 Ultra IS a joke. But NOT because of how fast it is. If a card's worth was solely depended on how fast a card is, then nvidia would still make them. The 5800 Ultra is a joke for the following reasons, It is very loud, at the time was MORE expensive then the 9700 Pro, it came out 6 months late and couldnt live up to the hype. Yes it was fast, but not "Ultra Fast" like nvidia said it would be. The 9700 pro set the "standard" for high performance cards, and the 5800U was not in a "class" of it's own performance wise like nvidia claimed it to be.

Your acting too childish as well. Some people dont NEED such fast and expensive cards rollo. Your saying someone with a slower card has no right to say that your faster one is slow? Just WHO are you to say that other people's opinions dont matter? They may not matter to you, as you are stuck in your own little world where every thing you got is the best. People's opinions do matter, to me at least. They can say your 5800U is slow because it is slower then a 9800XT or 5950 Ultra. They dont have to have it to know how fast it is. Have you ever heard of the Internet?