R.I P. Middle Class (just my opinion)

[sandorski]

What your missing though is governments will never save money during good times. Any budget surplus will be spent, it will not be saved. Hence Keynesian policy will never succeed because the half of the policy that requires some discipline (the saving) will never be implemented. Implementing Keynesian policies half-assed (which is what Obamanomics is) are making things even worst.

I disagree. Worked fairly well up here the last 10-12 years. Those "Savings" were mainly Spent paying down Debt, which actually increased the Surplus the next Fiscal Year due to lower Interest Charges. Governments Can do it, but only if they are willing. Perhaps what's missing in the US is good Politicians or good Political Parties. Something like that can be fixed.

 

[Darwin333]

How many suppliers has Walmart squeezed to the point of going out of business or shipping manf jobs overseas to keep their products on Walmart's shelf?

1. I don't find Walmart at fault for a company going out of business because Walmart refuses to purchase their product at a certain price. Don't like the price Walmart is willing to pay then don't sell it to them. If the success of your company revolves around a single business continuing to purchase your product then you have put yourself at risk if they decide your product isn't worth what they are paying for it. How else would you propose business work?

2. The second half of your sentence is exactly my point though. Customers do in fact see lower prices when manufacturers lower Walmarts prices by shipping jobs overseas. That is what we want though isn't it? We reward that behavior by giving them our business and as long as that is the case that is exactly what they will do. So, is Walmart to blame or are we to blame?

 

[nobodyknows]

Oh noes, we have a Democrat President and he's black. Sound the death knoll for the middle class. The end is near and the sky is falling, whatever shall we do???

Pleeease, things will go on somehow.

 

[Specop 007]

Oh noes, we have a Democrat President and he's black. Sound the death knoll for the middle class. The end is near and the sky is falling, whatever shall we do???

Pleeease, things will go on somehow.

Oh noes! We have a racist ignorant poster who made it into P&N!
Find the door and show him to it, he probably cant find it himself.

 

[soulcougher73]

Is that your thing?

I just like to point out idiocy when i see it. If all you have to add to a thread is someone mispelled one word you may as well not even contribute to the discussion at hand.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

The only real business left in America is pushing money around and profiting off the sick in the healthcare industry.

<snipped>

This too could be why so many in congress are against healthcare reform. The healthcare industry is one of the few American based companies that actually employ Americans. It would seem a slam dunk for government to support a government based &#8220;healthcare for all&#8221; system. A totally &#8220;nonprofit&#8221; system. A morally responsible system. But congress would not even consider that option when healthcare reform began. Is it possible congress realizes healthcare for profit is one of the few remaining true American based industries, like it or not. Evil as it is as a concept for any civilized society.

The health care industry doesn't exist in a vacuum. It very much depends on the overall health of the greater economy. Once 90&#37; of the populace ends up living in third world poverty, who will be able to pay the doctors, nurses, and insurance paper-pushers? I've read local newspaper stories about how local hospitals have had to cut staff or at least freeze all hiring as a result of having less business since fewer people in the region have insurance.

I think one of two things will happen to the U.S.:

(1) Over time the nation will transform into an overpopulated, impoverished third world country and the populace will become acclimated to it. Over the past couple decades the nation has taken on large numbers of immigrants from impoverished countries (they're already used to it) and they have driven population growth by reproducing faster than natural-born Americans. So they and their children--a large percentage of the populace--will already regard poverty and misery as a normal way of life. Americans thus won't pick up guns and erect guillotines in mas because they won't perceive a problem; they will have become acclimated to "The New Normal". Perhaps a brutal government dictatorship would even quell dissent.

(2) America will have an ugly, violent, blood-soaked French or Russian style revolution, complete with politicians' heads being put up on pikes and a genocide on the upper classes. Various minority and religious groups might receive some of the blame and might also suffer genocide. (Jews--always a convenient scapegoat, Blacks, homosexuals, etc.) I think that this is more likely to happen if economic conditions in the nation deteriorate precipitously before people can become acclimated to them and/or if something like Peak Oil comes to pass.


Of course I'm hoping that neither one of these alternatives occur and that we'll change course in time to prevent it. However, I do not foresee that happening. Instead, I foresee oodles of happy talk from people who are satisfied with their current lot in life. Perhaps there will even be a couple small cyclic "recoveries" to help mask the general downward trend. Then we will slide comfortably into Option #1 unless some sort of an economic cataclysm triggers Option #2.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

We are all against outsourcing in principle but do you put really support it? How many of you are willing to pay more to buy an American made car? Instead you will spend 3 or 4 pages telling me why that foreign car you own is better, all the while you are advocating the outsourcing of American jobs. Where do you shop? You like them cheap DVD players and cheap clothes and all the other crap we buy. When was the last time you actually went out of your way to at least attempt to purchase American made goods?

I am not throwing stones my friend as I am just as guilty although I do sorta try to find American made products. I usually give up after a try or two and buy the foreign made stuff out of convenience.

Anyone who disagrees, I will make you this bet. Take two batches of identical shirts made at the same time. Put half of them on one rack at walmart with a big "sale" sign over it with a price of $5 each. The other half goes on another rack right next to the first with a big ass MADE IN AMERICA sign over it at a price of $10 ea. I got $100 that says the cheap shirts sell much faster.

Then again, can you blame them? Can you blame your fellow countrymen for wanting their hard earned dollars to go further for their families? Can you blame them for wanting a better or more car for their money?

Are WE as Americans willing to put OUR money where our mouths are? Are we willing to spend more on our stuff in order to ensure that our countrymen have jobs and opportunities. We are the consumer and we have all of the power. It used to be a matter of pride to buy American made. We no longer care but I guarantee if we did we could change it.

I think Americans would be willing to pay more up front if it also resulted in higher wages for Americans and lower invisible back-end costs (fewer social problems, less crime, less need for tax revenue).

Our problem with global labor arbitrage is in essence like a tragedy of the commons with the U.S. economy being the commons. Absent any rules, businesses and consumers will run roughshod over the commons (the American economy) as they seek higher profits and lower prices by using less expensive foreign labor. Since people benefit from doing that individually in the short-term but don't suffer the negative costs of it directly (externalities) they have every incentive to do it. If one person or business is doing it then why shouldn't everyone else do it?

Is there an entity in our society that can address this problem? Yes. The government can solve the problem by simply regulating the use of the commons, which in this context means ending Global Labor Arbitrage and <gasp> forcing Americans to do business with Americans.

Our problem with global labor arbitrage is very serious but is far from intractable.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

So tell me once again, which part of smaller government and less taxes to you disagree with?

I disagree with the parts about not regulating international trade and immigration and about not realizing the economic efficiencies and standard of living increases that would come from having socialized medicine.

 

[brencat]

It is a double edged sword. You and I are as responsible for the outsourcing as is the .gov and the evil corporations.

We are all against outsourcing in principle but do you put really support it? How many of you are willing to pay more to buy an American made car? Instead you will spend 3 or 4 pages telling me why that foreign car you own is better, all the while you are advocating the outsourcing of American jobs. Where do you shop? You like them cheap DVD players and cheap clothes and all the other crap we buy. When was the last time you actually went out of your way to at least attempt to purchase American made goods?

Anyone who disagrees, I will make you this bet. Take two batches of identical shirts made at the same time. Put half of them on one rack at walmart with a big "sale" sign over it with a price of $5 each. The other half goes on another rack right next to the first with a big ass MADE IN AMERICA sign over it at a price of $10 ea. I got $100 that says the cheap shirts sell much faster.

Then again, can you blame them? Can you blame your fellow countrymen for wanting their hard earned dollars to go further for their families? Can you blame them for wanting a better or more car for their money?

Are WE as Americans willing to put OUR money where our mouths are? Are we willing to spend more on our stuff in order to ensure that our countrymen have jobs and opportunities. We are the consumer and we have all of the power. It used to be a matter of pride to buy American made. We no longer care but I guarantee if we did we could change it.

Seriously, this might be the best post I've seen on AT in months...

You are absolutely correct. On one hand, we all want our money to go farther -- so shopping at Walmart sounds great in principle. Until you realize 95&#37; of the stuff they sell is made in China, and that long term we are only hurting ourselves if we continue to value choice at the expense of all else, including some (modest) sense of nationalism.

The way I see it, it's not like the stuff made in China is sold for substantially less money. It's more like this: Previously American made product X for $29.99, now made in China at 1/20th the cost now sells for $27.99 (undercutting a competitor's product on the shelf by $1 or $2 tops). The reduction in revenue to the seller is more than offset by reduced cost of labor. Margins improve and seller's stock goes up. Customer thinks they got a bargain...rinse and repeat.

Until one day, the buyer's job gets outsourced...and there are no more buyers for seller's product. There is a price to be paid long term for this I think.

 

[brencat]

Is there an entity in our society that can address this problem? Yes. The government can solve the problem by simply regulating the use of the commons, which in this context means ending Global Labor Arbitrage and <gasp> forcing Americans to do business with Americans.

Our problem with global labor arbitrage is very serious but is far from intractable.

What you are effectively advocating is protectionism, likely via import tariffs. That will do nothing except hurt global trade as well as the lower classes of society the most...which is what tariffs always do. This is the other extreme and I don't think that's the answer either.

 

[Mursilis]

I disagree. Worked fairly well up here the last 10-12 years. Those "Savings" were mainly Spent paying down Debt, which actually increased the Surplus the next Fiscal Year due to lower Interest Charges. Governments Can do it, but only if they are willing. Perhaps what's missing in the US is good Politicians or good Political Parties. Something like that can be fixed.

I think what's missing is an electorate that actually wants a fiscal conservatism. I've said this before but it bears repeating: the masses want fiscal responsibility the same way they want to be thin - everyone desires the goal but few are willing to sacrifice to achieve it.

 

[xj0hnx]

I try to buy goods made in first world country. Sometimes it's not possible, but I do try. Doesn't have to be from USA, but any first world country. My milwaukee power drill is made in USA, initially I purchased DeWalt drill made in mexico, but it turned out to be crap,

I thought DeWalt was out of Baltimore, and did manufacturing in Canada and Pennsylvania?

 

[blackangst1]

The entitlement you speak of is more a function of the lower class. While the middle class shares this to some extent they at least are willing to hold a job. The lower class entitlement is waiting for the government to give it to them, the middle class entitlement is wanting the option to make payments on everything.

One of these is at least a successful way to go about it. Theres nothing wrong with the entitlement mentality of the middle class. The lower class version of it is corrupt to the core because it is nothing more then waiting for money to be given from them that was taken from someone with a job.

I disagree. One example is the housing bust. The majority or the people who lost their homes were middle class, and the majority of those bought more house than they could afford, didnt read the disclosure page, or flat out made a bad financial decision. And all this while crying its not their fault and someone, other than them, should pay. Were there some unscrupulous lenders? Of course. But in the end it is OUR responsibility for the choices we make. Thats just one example.

 

[blackangst1]

Do not know where you live but these people are already broke years ago here and just trying to survive. Hell, even the people who were responsible are just holding on by their nails (if that). I suggest reality, its a awesome thing to grasp.

I live in the 5th largest city in the USA (Phoenix). And I never said this phenomenon is new. Its been progressively getting worse since the 80's.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

What you are effectively advocating is protectionism, likely via import tariffs. That will do nothing except hurt global trade as well as the lower classes of society the most...which is what tariffs always do. This is the other extreme and I don't think that's the answer either.

That's right. I'm advocating protectionism--tariffs, a zero dollar trade deficit, very little immigration, no work visas.

You say that it would hurt the lower classes but you haven't explained why. Why don't you explain how it would hurt the lower classes?

Yes, it's true that the price of goods and services would increase but so would wages and the number of job opportunities while the invisible back end costs would decrease. Instead of the wealthy being able to retain a larger percentage of workers' contributions to the act of wealth production, they would be forced by market forces to give their workers a larger percentage of it.

How exactly do the lower classes benefit from having to compete with illegal aliens and fifty-cents-an-hour-with-no-environmental-or-labor-regulations Chinese? The illegal aliens are putting downward pressure on wages and displacing the lower classes from non-agricultural jobs they might otherwise work at. Foreign outsourcing has displaced Americans from formerly middle class manufacturing jobs as well as displaced Americans from many knowledge-based college-education-requiring jobs and the H-1B and L-1 visas have displaced Americans from even more knowledge-based jobs. How does destroying the ladders of upward mobility help the lower classes?

How does merging the lower classes with the impoverished third world job markets help them? Doesn't it stand to reason that if you created one single global labor market devoid of barriers that wages and standard of living would have to average out--which means that your average American would end up with a third world standard of living? (This is just simple supply-and-demand logic. If you dramatically increase the supply of labor relative to capital then the price point--wages, compensation, and/or standard of living--must decrease.)

If you can convincingly explain it please let us know. Publish an op-ed in the newspapers to present it to the public and our politicians and media pundits will shout it out from the rooftops. Even intellectual capitalist extraordinaire George Reisman (author of Capitalism: a Treatise on Government) failed to explain it to Paul Craig Roberts in a debate that took place on the Ludwig von Mises discussion forum a couple years back.

Before you dogmatically retort, "Comparative Advantage", check out this essay that explains why Comparative Advantage is not an absolute and why international trade may not always be an instance of comparative advantage.

http://www.vdare.com/roberts/050520_hearing.htm

 

[blackangst1]

Seriously, this might be the best post I've seen on AT in months...

You are absolutely correct. On one hand, we all want our money to go farther -- so shopping at Walmart sounds great in principle. Until you realize 95% of the stuff they sell is made in China, and that long term we are only hurting ourselves if we continue to value choice at the expense of all else, including some (modest) sense of nationalism.

The way I see it, it's not like the stuff made in China is sold for substantially less money. It's more like this: Previously American made product X for $29.99, now made in China at 1/20th the cost now sells for $27.99 (undercutting a competitor's product on the shelf by $1 or $2 tops). The reduction in revenue to the seller is more than offset by reduced cost of labor. Margins improve and seller's stock goes up. Customer thinks they got a bargain...rinse and repeat.

Until one day, the buyer's job gets outsourced...and there are no more buyers for seller's product. There is a price to be paid long term for this I think.

Out of curiosity, do you honestly believe the Chinese made merchandise in Walart is a higher percentage than at say...Target? Or Costco? Or Fred Meyer?


Really?

 

[StageLeft]

Another issue is we as a people have lost our way. We dont hold value to the things we once did: family, honor, children, pride, honor. Now its consumerism. We dont give a FUCK about our kids. We dont give a FUCK about our own retirements. We just give a FUCK if we can BUY that next toy.

Our society is poisoned. For any number of reasons many of us lack even a clue about what can bring us meaning or happiness so we default to the most simple hope which is that buying something else will hope, which it does only briefly and its cost remains longer.

BTW Walmart is a corporate whore like all of them, it just does it better than most. Don't pretend it cares about saving its consumers money for any reason other than by doing so it makes more itself, uninterested in any consequences of how its shareholders are impacted. It is not evil it is simply a response to the economy we are in, which itself has evil aspects. Walmart is like a microcosm of where the country itself may be headed, with some at the top STINKING fvcking Rich (check out Forbes richest top 10 list and see how many walmart names are there), and other upper management rich with most of the actual grunt work done by unappreciated high-turnover employees most of whom probably wish they'd be hit by a train on the way home to just have it all end.

EDIT: This year's richest people. Check out spots 4, 5, 6, 7. All Waltons. http://www.forbes.com/2009/09/30/forbes-400-gates-buffett-wealth-rich-list-09_land.html

 

[sandorski]

Greed is neither Good nor Evil, but it can be both. What I think is certainly Evil is Ideological Blindness. That is the Black/White view that accepts Greed as Good or Evil. Greed needs Limitations, not Sainthood or Demonetization.

 

[Specop 007]

I disagree with the parts about not regulating international trade and immigration and about not realizing the economic efficiencies and standard of living increases that would come from having socialized medicine.

There is no standard of living increase in socialized medicine unless your a worthless bag of flesh without a job. Sooo....why do you want the overall level of care to decline?

 

[blackangst1]

Our society is poisoned. For any number of reasons many of us lack even a clue about what can bring us meaning or happiness so we default to the most simple hope which is that buying something else will hope, which it does only briefly and its cost remains longer.

BTW Walmart is a corporate whore like all of them, it just does it better than most. Don't pretend it cares about saving its consumers money for any reason other than by doing so it makes more itself, uninterested in any consequences of how its shareholders are impacted. It is not evil it is simply a response to the economy we are in, which itself has evil aspects. Walmart is like a microcosm of where the country itself may be headed, with some at the top STINKING fvcking Rich (check out Forbes richest top 10 list and see how many walmart names are there), and other upper management rich with most of the actual grunt work done by unappreciated high-turnover employees most of whom probably wish they'd be hit by a train on the way home to just have it all end.

EDIT: This year's richest people. Check out spots 4, 5, 6, 7. All Waltons. http://www.forbes.com/2009/09/30/forbes-400-gates-buffett-wealth-rich-list-09_land.html

And the problem with your second paragraph is what exactly?

 

[blackangst1]

Greed is neither Good nor Evil, but it can be both. What I think is certainly Evil is Ideological Blindness. That is the Black/White view that accepts Greed as Good or Evil. Greed needs Limitations, not Sainthood or Demonetization.

In general I agree with this. Ive said for years money magnifies your weaknesses and strengths. It makes good people better and bad people worse. If you cant live within your means on $35,000/year, you wont be able to at $350,000/year. Want proof? Look at all the celebs who go bankrupt. If you cant manage a little, you cant manage alot.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

There is no standard of living increase in socialized medicine unless your a worthless bag of flesh without a job. Sooo....why do you want the overall level of care to decline?

The standard of living increase that comes from having socialized medicine is that you're not wasting percentages of your GDP on inefficient insurance companies, billing specialists, insurance brokers, benefits plans managers, and other paper-pushers that have nothing to do with actually providing health care. The people also save time (a form of wealth) by not having to worry about insurance issues and businesses and the economy are not burdened by them either.

And how does not having a job make a person a worthless bag of flesh? What if someone is physically and/or mentally unable to work or jobs are just unavailable as a result of the government's and businesses' having waged a war against the economy and the lower classes?

 

[werepossum]

Seriously, this might be the best post I've seen on AT in months...

You are absolutely correct. On one hand, we all want our money to go farther -- so shopping at Walmart sounds great in principle. Until you realize 95% of the stuff they sell is made in China, and that long term we are only hurting ourselves if we continue to value choice at the expense of all else, including some (modest) sense of nationalism.

The way I see it, it's not like the stuff made in China is sold for substantially less money. It's more like this: Previously American made product X for $29.99, now made in China at 1/20th the cost now sells for $27.99 (undercutting a competitor's product on the shelf by $1 or $2 tops). The reduction in revenue to the seller is more than offset by reduced cost of labor. Margins improve and seller's stock goes up. Customer thinks they got a bargain...rinse and repeat.

Until one day, the buyer's job gets outsourced...and there are no more buyers for seller's product. There is a price to be paid long term for this I think.

Exactly. Also, after the American company gets fat, the Chinese company making the product begins marketing its own (usually improved) version for much less. Then the remaining American jobs (marketing, quality assurance, and management) also get outsourced to China and either the American company folds, or it gets bought up cheap by a foreign company.

WalMart though has no more Chinese product content than any other chain or even Mom and Pop store with the same products, with the added benefit that about a quarter of all WalMart's profits are actually generated by sales in China. So at least WalMart is getting some back.

 

[Specop 007]

The standard of living increase that comes from having socialized medicine is that you're not wasting percentages of your GDP on inefficient insurance companies, billing specialists, insurance brokers, benefits plans managers, and other paper-pushers that have nothing to do with actually providing health care. The people also save time (a form of wealth) by not having to worry about insurance issues and businesses and the economy are not burdened by them either.

And how does not having a job make a person a worthless bag of flesh? What if someone is physically and/or mentally unable to work or jobs are just unavailable as a result of the government's and businesses' having waged a war against the economy and the lower classes?

ok, so the elimination of all those middlemen positions is brought about by an increase in taxes which lowers my net take home. How then is this an increase in my standard of living? Taking more money from me is an increase in my standard of living??

Not having a job means your getting government cheese, that means someone else (One of those who you want to take money from to pay for your heath care) would have to pay for it.

So, if a man cant pay his own way in life you tell me what he is........ And we both know "disabled" is a bullshit answer in 99% of the cases.......

 

[Robor]

1. I don't find Walmart at fault for a company going out of business because Walmart refuses to purchase their product at a certain price. Don't like the price Walmart is willing to pay then don't sell it to them. If the success of your company revolves around a single business continuing to purchase your product then you have put yourself at risk if they decide your product isn't worth what they are paying for it. How else would you propose business work?

2. The second half of your sentence is exactly my point though. Customers do in fact see lower prices when manufacturers lower Walmarts prices by shipping jobs overseas. That is what we want though isn't it? We reward that behavior by giving them our business and as long as that is the case that is exactly what they will do. So, is Walmart to blame or are we to blame?

Considering Walmart is by far the biggest retailer not selling to them and remaining competitive would be difficult. As far as #2, I don't shop at Walmart. I'll gladly shop at Target or Walgreens even if the price is a little higher.