R.I P. Middle Class (just my opinion)

sportage

Lifer
Feb 1, 2008
11,492
3,162
136
With unemployment at 10% + in some places, and with no relief in sight from either the government nor the business sector, it makes one wonder if the middle class is no longer much of a factor in the US economy. Use to be the middle class made the goods, made the cars, the steel, the tires, the garments. Today, we depend on Mexico and China, as well as other foreign countries to do the manufacturing. The only real business left in America is pushing money around and profiting off the sick in the healthcare industry. Maybe that is why, when wall street was in trouble, the government Calvary came a running with money in hand.

But when it comes to unemployment at 10% +, nothing but lip service is offered. As things get worse, it becomes obvious no Calvary is waiting in the wings to come a running at the aid of the working middle class as it did for wall street and banking. Im not talking of a handout of money to the middle class unemployed, but a handout of ideas and blue collar jobs. Maybe the way it is, is exactly how our leaders want it? It is said as unemployment increases, so does the stock market enjoy gains. Business laying off workers, it has been said is actually a good thing for the market place. If a business has less workers to pay salary to, benefits to, their stock holders will benefit. The money pushers benefit. Wall street benefits, and the company benefits. So why should anyone from the government side, from the top down, care anything about the displaced so called middle class workers? After all, few of them actually manufacture any goods in America anymore. Government appears to look at them as a huge burden on society.
If you push around money, you probably have a good secure job. If you are in the healthcare industry, you probably have a good secure job. If you work in the fast food industry, you at least have a secure job.

This too could be why so many in congress are against healthcare reform. The healthcare industry is one of the few American based companies that actually employ Americans. It would seem a slam dunk for government to support a government based “healthcare for all” system. A totally “nonprofit” system. A morally responsible system. But congress would not even consider that option when healthcare reform began. Is it possible congress realizes healthcare for profit is one of the few remaining true American based industries, like it or not. Evil as it is as a concept for any civilized society.

If you were a union worker, a blue collar worker, and you watch unemployment soaring higher and higher daily, should you be surprised when it seems you now live in an Alice in Wonderland world in America today? A country turned upside down? A country where continuing a system of healthcare for profiting off the sick is the goal of leaders, and accepted as an legitimate condition, regardless of what the majority of the citizens want? An Alice in Wonderland country where billions of tax dollars can go to bail out banks and wall street with no questions asked, while high unemployment gets little more attention than lip service? Unions are dying, manufacturing sent offshore, and the blue collar working middle class is looking into the mirror at their own mortality. Either you find employment pushing around money, or in the healthcare industry, or you live off government unemployment benefits.

I recently watched the old classic film “The Grapes of Wrath”. The poor family went from place to place looking for decent work, but found none. Finally they came across a government ran camp where they were given housing and comfort. But the one thing missing, the one thing unacceptable regardless of the comfort, the opportunity to work and earn a decent living. Sounds a lot like today’s continuing government unemployment benefits program. A program of benefits the government extends over and over. The governments solution to unemployment and a dying middle class. And even with that, a program the government is beginning to show less and less tolerance of. So to the America’s middle class, R.I.P.
(just my opinion)
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
America is in trouble because our government rewards failure. Top down.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
FYI big difference between cavalry and calvary ;)

Anyway, it's a new world and always changing. If I was a blue collar worker now I'd be sweating bullets and taking night-classes to get trained in something with a more solid future. I work in manufacturing and I can only assume that most of the people who run our machines constantly have it on the back of their mind that their job is very likely to leave and be replaced by somebody in China or Mexico. We may be under-regulated and when there are not many regulations you get a more exaggerated system of haves and have-nots and the haves are generally a smaller minority who end up having more.

A manufacturing leaves the US and it's more service oriented who knows if it can really do that long-term. The current economy is based on so much debt growth that nobody can fairly say it's working so far. If that deficit is brought to a realistic position, how would the nearly all service/consumer (i.e. not manufacturing) economy work then?
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
With unemployment at 10% + in some places, and with no relief in sight from either the government nor the business sector, it makes one wonder if the middle class is no longer much of a factor in the US economy.

Im not talking of a handout of money to the middle class unemployed, but a handout of ideas and blue collar jobs.

Maybe the way it is, is exactly how our leaders want it?

Ding ding ding. I've only been saying this for the 9 years.

Yes, sir this was all done by design.

Just have a few Kings at the top and all other Serfs serve them below.
 

Ausm

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
25,213
14
81
The Reagonomics was the start of the systematic dismantling of the middle class. Clinton also shares the blame on this with NAFTA and further deregulation of wall street which has brought our economy to it's knees.

Without real regulatory reform which will actually HELP the people and the the reversal of out sourcing American jobs we are going to be in real trouble.

Who are going to pay the taxes when the middle class is extinguished??
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
126
I was talking with my financial adviser earlier this week about some of these topics. He feels it will take two generations before the masses revolt and take the country back. I think it will be sooner than that. It will happen. History shows that. Socialism historically can only function for just so long. Eventually the system collapses.

You don't have to be a genius to know that the rich can't be tapped enough to maintain the lifestyle we have today. The figures are out there to prove that. The middle class then becomes the next target. Eventually they're tapped out too. Then comes the revolt.

That's one way to look at the mess that is our daily lives, but here's another.

As much as I rail against it, what I believe is the real agenda of our leaders will eventually come to pass by necessity. In some respects it may not be so terrible to embrace it now and get it over with. A global government with the resultant global currency is an inevitability. It is the only answer to many of our problems. Wars, poverty, jobs, wages, etc.

The timing is wrong for a global government right now. Not wrong in the sense that we don't need it, wrong because there are too many opposing it. The cornerstones of what is needed to implement it are crumbling. Redistribution of wealth is one cornerstone. Cap and trade is dead. The discovery of the manipulation of data on a grand scale has killed it. The goals in Copenhagen were scaled down even prior to their release. This was a big one and it's not happening. This would have been redistribution on a global scale. Health care was to have been the redistribution on a national level. It's failing, but some form of it will go through. It's necessary to compete in the world as we know it today.

The Cloward-Piven strategy is another cornerstone. The masses are fighting back too hard. Demonstrations, phone calls to their reps, the internet to a very great degree among other things have thrown a monkey wrench into the works of this strategy. People still care too much about their neighbors (believe it or not) to fully implement this. Food banks, clothing donations, things like Habitat for Humanity, churches to a great degree, these things have not allowed the Cloward-Piven strategy to take the foothold necessary to overload the system and bring it to it's knees.

Another cornerstone is the media. This has been a big failure. Although a majority of the broadcast media in this country is willingly under nearly complete government control (cracks are appearing as of late) stations like FOX, talk radio, the internet (blogs, websites, forums etc.) are out there and thriving. The newspapers are dying a natural death but legislation is in the works to bail them out. This is a great opportunity to take complete control of the print media but it's too late. They may bail them out, but the control of them will not be enough.

The people who are really pulling the strings I'm sure have figured out at this point that this attempt at a global government is not to be right now. The signs have already started appearing. Our leader has publicly stated that all this debt may not be good. He's stated that we may have to give tax breaks to encourage increases in employment. The troop buildup in Afghanistan is another sign. Make no mistake, Obama IMO, is not a string puller. His string is being pulled. He is the leader of our nation and his marching orders have changed. If the global government cannot be achieved at this time, a soft landing of what was once the greatest power in the world must take place. Love us or hate us, we've spread much good in this world. That must now be restored.

It can always be said of course, but we are living in history making times. Things will start turning around. It's already begun. The root problems have not been addressed, but a sense of normalcy is being restored.

Enough of my philosophical musings for today.
 
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heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
6,278
0
0
I wouldn't throw that last shovel of dirt on them just quite yet but we are undergoing a serious squeeze.

I'm guessing: 25%+ of the US now has zero or negative net worth. The way things are going there is a big chunk of the 'lower middle' that will drop down.

Many of those folks will bounce back when we get some recovery and job growth. But how many will be crushed? What will be the new 'bottom' for the middle class?

In a few generations we've gone from 70% 'middle class' to ???
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
The Reagonomics was the start of the systematic dismantling of the middle class. Clinton also shares the blame on this with NAFTA and further deregulation of wall street which has brought our economy to it's knees.

Without real regulatory reform which will actually HELP the people and the the reversal of out sourcing American jobs we are going to be in real trouble.

Who are going to pay the taxes when the middle class is extinguished??

It is a double edged sword. You and I are as responsible for the outsourcing as is the .gov and the evil corporations.

We are all against outsourcing in principle but do you put really support it? How many of you are willing to pay more to buy an American made car? Instead you will spend 3 or 4 pages telling me why that foreign car you own is better, all the while you are advocating the outsourcing of American jobs. Where do you shop? You like them cheap DVD players and cheap clothes and all the other crap we buy. When was the last time you actually went out of your way to at least attempt to purchase American made goods?

I am not throwing stones my friend as I am just as guilty although I do sorta try to find American made products. I usually give up after a try or two and buy the foreign made stuff out of convenience.

Anyone who disagrees, I will make you this bet. Take two batches of identical shirts made at the same time. Put half of them on one rack at walmart with a big "sale" sign over it with a price of $5 each. The other half goes on another rack right next to the first with a big ass MADE IN AMERICA sign over it at a price of $10 ea. I got $100 that says the cheap shirts sell much faster.

Then again, can you blame them? Can you blame your fellow countrymen for wanting their hard earned dollars to go further for their families? Can you blame them for wanting a better or more car for their money?

Are WE as Americans willing to put OUR money where our mouths are? Are we willing to spend more on our stuff in order to ensure that our countrymen have jobs and opportunities. We are the consumer and we have all of the power. It used to be a matter of pride to buy American made. We no longer care but I guarantee if we did we could change it.

How many Americans still do business with the very banks that took their tax dollars to stay afloat and thanked them by royally fucking them over? Why do you suppose that is?

It is easy to blame the politicians and the evil corporations, and they do share in the blame, but at the same time what have we done about it? We have supported it that is what we have done and we continue to do so.
 

fleshconsumed

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2002
6,486
2,363
136
We are all against outsourcing in principle but do you put really support it? How many of you are willing to pay more to buy an American made car? Instead you will spend 3 or 4 pages telling me why that foreign car you own is better, all the while you are advocating the outsourcing of American jobs. Where do you shop? You like them cheap DVD players and cheap clothes and all the other crap we buy. When was the last time you actually went out of your way to at least attempt to purchase American made goods?

I am not throwing stones my friend as I am just as guilty although I do sorta try to find American made products. I usually give up after a try or two and buy the foreign made stuff out of convenience.

There is nothing wrong with buying foreign car because generally they compete on quality, reliability and safety, not on price. Toyotas cost more than GM/Ford and such, yet people still buy them. Why? Because they actually compete on quality.

I try to buy goods made in first world country. Sometimes it's not possible, but I do try. Doesn't have to be from USA, but any first world country. My milwaukee power drill is made in USA, initially I purchased DeWalt drill made in mexico, but it turned out to be crap, so I returned it and bought milwaukee, been very happy with the choice. When I was buying chalk for rock climbing, I had a choice between cheap chinese chalk and one made in USA, although twice as expensive, I picked one made in USA because after all this chinese crap with drywalls, powdered milk, lead in toys, etc, I do not trust chinese made chemicals, especially ones that come near my face. Same with rock climbing shoes, you can literally tell the difference in quality between chinese made rock climbing shoes, and the ones made in USA or Italy. My carabiners are all made in USA/Italy/Spain, yeah, like I'd trust my or someone else's life to Chinese carabiner. Ha! F that! I only wish black diamond ATC-XP belay devices were made in USA as well instead of Taiwan. My running shoes are New Balance made in USA. I mean fark, I generally eat healthy, but I do like apple chewy candy every once in a while, I was buying one from convenience store, until I read that it can come from Mexico or China or a bunch of other third world countries. No more for me. I do not want to trust my health to Chinese made candy. I found substitute made in Spain, that's good enough for me. I'm going to build mountain bike this winter and the frame/front fork I'm going to buy are going to be made in USA, hubs are Japanese made.

Yes, I get it. A lot of products, especially toasters, microwaves and clothes are all made in china and it's impossible to buy American made. However, there are still great number or products that are USA or first world country made. And the best part is, most of the time they cost the same or nearly the same as Chinese crap, but have much higher quality. All this stuff about saving money on production and passing savings to the consumer is a lie. There are no savings being passed to consumer. Corporations outsource production to china at 10% of the cost, pocket 80% difference, and pass maybe 10% in savings to consumer. Yes, it's marginally cheaper, but is it really worth 50% in quality drop and losing American jobs to outsourcing? Not IMO.
 
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Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Ding ding ding. I've only been saying this for the 9 years.

Yes, sir this was all done by design.

Just have a few Kings at the top and all other Serfs serve them below.

of course you also support those who wish to tax and destroy the middle class. So I suppose its safe to say not only have you been saying it but you have also been doing everything you can to see it come to fruition
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
There is nothing wrong with buying foreign car because generally they compete on quality, reliability and safety, not on price. Toyotas cost more than GM/Ford and such, yet people still buy them. Why? Because they actually compete on quality.

So you agree with the entire premise of outsourcing jobs? Obviously you are concerned about the quality of the products you buy but a lot of people are more worried about quantity.

Since your obviously not willing to sacrifice on the "stuff" you buy to ensure that Americans have jobs, what are you willing to sacrifice? I don't mean to pick on you but you illustrate my point rather well. We, as Americans are not willing to sacrifice anything of ourselves anymore but we are more than willing to make someone else sacrifice for something we sorta believe in. All most of us are willing to give is lip service and a bunch of fingers pointed at someone else. We are all part of the problem but most of us like to pretend that we are not. I am sure the reasons you list for buying stuff made in other countries are valid but how many American jobs are those reasons worth? 1? 2? 10? How many people do you recon are willing to pay say $75 extra for a laptop if the maker guaranteed to keep all tech support/call centers in the US? A few percent at the most maybe?

We reward outsourcing and now we are surprised that its happening faster and faster while we are rushing out to continue rewarding them...
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
And the best part is, most of the time they cost the same or nearly the same as Chinese crap, but have much higher quality. All this stuff about saving money on production and passing savings to the consumer is a lie. There are no savings being passed to consumer. Corporations outsource production to china at 10% of the cost, pocket 80% difference, and pass maybe 10% in savings to consumer. Yes, it's marginally cheaper, but is it really worth 50% in quality drop and losing American jobs to outsourcing? Not IMO.

That is not exactly true either. Walmart doesn't have the cheapest prices because of bulk alone. Profit margins aren't as high as you would like to think for most manufacturers and it is a very competitive market (most of them at least). You don't get to pocket 80% of the savings for long before your competitor undercuts your prices.

Read up on Wallyworld alone and how they squeeze every penny they can out of their suppliers AND actually pass most of that savings on to the customer.
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
The Reagonomics was the start of the systematic dismantling of the middle class. Clinton also shares the blame on this with NAFTA and further deregulation of wall street which has brought our economy to it's knees.

Without real regulatory reform which will actually HELP the people and the the reversal of out sourcing American jobs we are going to be in real trouble.

Who are going to pay the taxes when the middle class is extinguished??

Yeah, smaller government and lower taxes (Reagonomics) is certainly when the decline of the middle class began. I know the true answer in a strong middle class is going to be stifling taxes and handout programs to reward failure.

No, the decline of the middle class came about with social programs. The floor for who needs free cheese is constantly raising, which puts ever more tax burdens on the middle class to support the dregs of society.
 

Ausm

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
25,213
14
81
Yeah, smaller government and lower taxes (Reagonomics) is certainly when the decline of the middle class began. I know the true answer in a strong middle class is going to be stifling taxes and handout programs to reward failure.

No, the decline of the middle class came about with social programs. The floor for who needs free cheese is constantly raising, which puts ever more tax burdens on the middle class to support the dregs of society.

Umm Reagan tripled the deficit forcing Bush 1 to raise taxes so what's your point?
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
81
I was talking with my financial adviser earlier this week about some of these topics. He feels it will take two generations before the masses revolt and take the country back.

I disagree. The masses won't turn off American Idol, get off the couch, and do anything.
 

bl4ckfl4g

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2007
3,669
0
0
Yeah, smaller government and lower taxes (Reagonomics) is certainly when the decline of the middle class began. I know the true answer in a strong middle class is going to be stifling taxes and handout programs to reward failure.

No, the decline of the middle class came about with social programs. The floor for who needs free cheese is constantly raising, which puts ever more tax burdens on the middle class to support the dregs of society.

You seriously buy into the fantasy that was reagan and not the reality? lol. The reality is that he seriously increased the deficit .


Edit: beaten
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Umm Reagan tripled the deficit forcing Bush 1 to raise taxes so what's your point?

Ok, so do you disagree with Reagonomics the theory or the budget decisions of Reagan? The principles of Reagonomics were smaller government and less taxes. Admittedly, fiscally speaking, he didnt do very well in regards to that.

None the less he did lower taxes. Of course one of the reasons for his massive deficit runup was due to the Cold War. He just simply outspent the Russians and won the Cold War with dollars rather then bullets.

So tell me once again, which part of smaller government and less taxes to you disagree with? And dont even begin to mention deficit run up with your boy Obungo in office spending like he has a money tree in the back he just has to shake every week or so to get more green.
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
You seriously buy into the fantasy that was reagan and not the reality? lol. The reality is that he seriously increased the deficit .


Edit: beaten

HOPE AND CHANGE!

We'll have NO change in taxes for anyone under 250k income. We'll have job recovery! We'll have.....

Oh wait. You mean you bought into the lies of HOPE AND CHANGE and not the empty suit he is in reality?

Gotchya. Fuck man you're on point today arent you.