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Quick question: Do you feel that democracy is good for all cultures?

maddogchen

Diamond Member
So President Bush is going around Europe right now trying to drum up support. Trying to get Europe to help spread democracy around the world. But I wonder, would democracy be good for every culture?

What are your thoughts?
 
I believe that freedom is good for all cultures(except the cultures of hate). Democracy over tyranny/dictatorships any day.

CsG
 
Maybe not exactly as we see it, but there is a little desire for freedom in all of us. There seem to be, at the very least, a handful of people from every culture currently living in the US.
 
I believe every country has the right of self determination without being threatened by the aggression of others.
 
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
I believe every country has the right of self determination without being threatened by the aggression of others.

Does that include dictators? Do the people speak for that "right of self determination" or does the dictator?

CsG
 
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
I believe every country has the right of self determination without being threatened by the aggression of others.

Does that include dictators? Do the people speak for that "right of self determination" or does the dictator?

CsG


Does your democracy include killing people against their wishes to free them?

There are other societies where they don't have elections. Tribal societies, religious societies. People there have lived that way for thousands of years and have been content to do so. Are you going to kill them too?

If people wish to rebel, then I am for it. I was glad to see Saddam go. I was not glad we waged war on the Iraqis.
 
Well...not strictly democracy. If people under a military dictatorship could somehow enjoy all the freedoms we do in the West, then that'd be fine by me. It's just that from a realistic POV, it tends to take democracy for freedom to happen.
 
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
I believe every country has the right of self determination without being threatened by the aggression of others.

Does that include dictators? Do the people speak for that "right of self determination" or does the dictator?

CsG


Does your democracy include killing people against their wishes to free them?

Nobody got shot who didn't shoot first. Go to Iraq and tell the terrorists there to give peace a chance....they're the ones starting the fights.
 
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
I believe every country has the right of self determination without being threatened by the aggression of others.

Including the Taliban?


You're a genius.

You are not.

Whether the people in Afghanistan wanted the Taliban or not, they forfeited their position by suppporting those who attacked us.

Don't be silly.
 
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
I believe every country has the right of self determination without being threatened by the aggression of others.

Does that include dictators? Do the people speak for that "right of self determination" or does the dictator?

CsG


Does your democracy include killing people against their wishes to free them?

Nobody got shot who didn't shoot first. Go to Iraq and tell the terrorists there to give peace a chance....they're the ones starting the fights.

Who'd she shoot?
 
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
I believe every country has the right of self determination without being threatened by the aggression of others.

Does that include dictators? Do the people speak for that "right of self determination" or does the dictator?

CsG


Does your democracy include killing people against their wishes to free them?

Nobody got shot who didn't shoot first. Go to Iraq and tell the terrorists there to give peace a chance....they're the ones starting the fights.

Best non sequitur of the day. You support an action that opened the door for these people, not me. Of course, your the actions you support have no consequences. It's always someone else's fault. Good job.

And another thing. There are a lot of dead people because of this war that did nothing to anyone. Collateral damage it's called.
 
Originally posted by: ScottyB
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
I believe every country has the right of self determination without being threatened by the aggression of others.

Does that include dictators? Do the people speak for that "right of self determination" or does the dictator?

CsG


Does your democracy include killing people against their wishes to free them?

Nobody got shot who didn't shoot first...or who wasn't tragically shot accidentally.

Who'd she shoot?

Fixed. Happy now. :roll:
 
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: ScottyB
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
I believe every country has the right of self determination without being threatened by the aggression of others.

Does that include dictators? Do the people speak for that "right of self determination" or does the dictator?

CsG


Does your democracy include killing people against their wishes to free them?

Nobody got shot who didn't shoot first...or who wasn't tragically shot accidentally.

Who'd she shoot?

Fixed. Happy now. :roll:

Think the father holding his dead daughter feels better now?

 
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
I believe every country has the right of self determination without being threatened by the aggression of others.

Does that include dictators? Do the people speak for that "right of self determination" or does the dictator?

CsG


Does your democracy include killing people against their wishes to free them?

Nobody got shot who didn't shoot first. Go to Iraq and tell the terrorists there to give peace a chance....they're the ones starting the fights.

Best non sequitur of the day. You support an action that opened the door for these people, not me.
And your NON-action in Afghanistan yielded many times as many innocent casualties.
 
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
I believe every country has the right of self determination without being threatened by the aggression of others.

Does that include dictators? Do the people speak for that "right of self determination" or does the dictator?

CsG


Does your democracy include killing people against their wishes to free them?

Nobody got shot who didn't shoot first. Go to Iraq and tell the terrorists there to give peace a chance....they're the ones starting the fights.

Best non sequitur of the day. You support an action that opened the door for these people, not me.
And your NON-action in Afghanistan yielded many times as many innocent casualties.


What non action was that?
 
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: ScottyB
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
I believe every country has the right of self determination without being threatened by the aggression of others.

Does that include dictators? Do the people speak for that "right of self determination" or does the dictator?

CsG


Does your democracy include killing people against their wishes to free them?

Nobody got shot who didn't shoot first...or who wasn't tragically shot accidentally.

Who'd she shoot?

Fixed. Happy now. :roll:

Think the father holding his dead daughter feels better now?

Nope. He probably feels about the same as the hundreds of thousands of fathers whose daughters are at the bottom of unmarked mass graves.

He probably also feels the same as the fathers who lost daughters in car accidents last year......but you haven't taken up a crusade against Ford yet, have you?
 
"Do you feel that democracy is good for all cultures?"

Of course not. Some people just can't be trusted to determine their leaders and policies. They are cattle and should be thankful that a culture can exist to keep them in their place whether they want to or not.
 
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: ScottyB
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
I believe every country has the right of self determination without being threatened by the aggression of others.

Does that include dictators? Do the people speak for that "right of self determination" or does the dictator?

CsG


Does your democracy include killing people against their wishes to free them?

Nobody got shot who didn't shoot first...or who wasn't tragically shot accidentally.

Who'd she shoot?

Fixed. Happy now. :roll:

Think the father holding his dead daughter feels better now?

Nope. He probably feels about the same as the hundreds of thousands of fathers whose daughters are at the bottom of unmarked mass graves.

He probably also feels the same as the fathers who lost daughters in car accidents last year......but you haven't taken up a crusade against Ford yet, have you?

Why don't you quit now. That's is a five year old's argument. My six year old knows better than to try to justify what he does by pointing at what others do. He is responsible for his own actions, and when he gets older he will be responsible for the actions he supports.

When Ford sets out to kill people, I'll get back to you.

What you don't get is that Saddam was a bad guy, but what was tried short of war? Was he locked down? What pressure was in fact put on him? Nothing. There might have been a need for war at some point, but after all options are exausted. Na, that would have been too hard.

 
Originally posted by: maddogchen
So President Bush is going around Europe right now trying to drum up support. Trying to get Europe to help spread democracy around the world. But I wonder, would democracy be good for every culture?

What are your thoughts?

Here's mine:

True democracy

May 2004 saw elections in the world?s largest democracy. The Congress party fell far short of a majority, but as India?s single-largest party, the Indian system of democracy deemed it that Congress forms the government. Many had expected Mrs Gandhi, as party leader, to become the fourth member of the Nehru-Gandhi tribe to be prime minister. The Gandhi family are regarded as India's monarchy. The Congress supporters had expected a coronation, not an abdication. It is peculiar enough that a dynastic monarchy can exist in a democracy that is barely 50 years old, but what is stranger is that the person that the electorate elected refused to mount her ancestral thrown. It would appear that it is not a democracy, nor a monarchy merely a messy mongrel of a political system.

In explaining her reasons for declining the post, she said ?one thing has always been clear to me ... that the post of prime minister has not been my aim.? Perhaps she should have made this clear before the elections. Have Ghandi in-laws never heard the term ?time-wasters need not apply.? Her ?inner voice? advised her not to go through with it. In many countries there exist mental health laws preventing people who hear voices, from standing for election in the first instance.

Protests were reported across the country. Her refusal to become prime minister threw Congress into turmoil at a time when it should have been basking in the victory. Outraged party workers stormed Congress's headquarters, next to Mrs Gandhi's house in Delhi, breaking doors and windows and demanding that she change her mind. A crowd of more than 1,000 was gathered outside. Some shouted "Either it is Sonia or nobody." Violence erupted soon after news broke that Mrs Gandhi and her senior aides had swung their support behind an alternative choice - Manmohan Singh.

Is a farcical form of democracy to be found only in the less developed world? The idea of the masses voting for one person and another getting into office has a certain resonance on the other side of the globe. In 2000 Al Gore received 539,898 more votes than George W Bush. Not only was there a clear majority across the union there was also evidence of election anomalies in Florida where the other member of the Bush syndicate was governor. Bush lost an election and won a court ruling, presided over by a bunch of Bush family cronies and republican stalwarts. There are, however differences between the Sonia case and George W?s case. Sonia can converse in English, French, Spanish, Italian and Russian. After entering politics she has now also become fluent in Hindi, whereas Bush can hardly speak English. There was a genuine outcry in India in response to the shenanigans, whereas in the US no one said a word, least of all the Democrats who had lost everything.

The 2000 presidential elections seemed to be a travesty of what democracy is all about. However, this may be an extreme case, but the US model is hardly a paradigm of democracy in action. It is a multi-party democracy with only two parties that both have the same policies, advisers, think tanks, secret society members and lobbyists. Since 1776 there have only ever been four parties that have participated in the American system. It is not quite a monarchy but it has its barons, lords and squires in the guise of its political dynasties.

In modern democracies dynasties are not that uncommon. This year also saw another election. This time, in the land where the ancient Greeks first implemented democracy. The planning and preparation performed by Greece for this year?s Olympic Games has shown the strength of the Greek?s desire and enthusiasm to hold fast to her traditions. They care just as much about democracy as they do about allowing world-class athletes to hop, skip and jump in a building site rather than a stadium. In March the New Democracy Party leader Costas Caramanlis won a resounding victory. He is part of a political dynasty that brought Greece out of military dictatorship. He is the nephew of Constantin Caramanlis, who was Prime Minister four times (1953-1963, 1974-1981). Caramanlis faced off in March with George Papandreou, son of Andreas, the founding father of Pan-Hellenic Socialist Party (PASOK), and grandson of George Papandreou, the leftwing post war leader, both former Prime Ministers. The whole of Greek politics over the last few decades was dominated by two families: Caramanlis and Papandreou.

There are many peculiarities that modern election processes throw up. This month will see elections for the European Parliament. Over the last year there has been a concerted effort made by the extremist nationalist far right parties to build a presence in this European wide forum. Parties such as the BNP (UK), FN (France), and Vlaams Blok (Belgium) have joined forces to participate in a system that they all find abhorrent. They all oppose the idea of a European Union, but yet they all want to help each other win seats in its parliament. Le Pen pronounced, in French, at a fund-raising dinner in Manchester that; "I hope that many people from the BNP will be elected and that we will create a very strong nationalist movement within the European Parliament," It seems that even the right wing dogmatists are just as pragmatic as the mainstream politicians.

There appears to be several problems with the implementations of democracy in the modern world. Are these problems just minor shortcomings of poor administration or are they inherent to an impracticable method of ruling? The problem lies with the concept of democracy itself. It never worked with the ancients and it doesn?t work today. We should not look at these ridiculous examples of recent years and consider them to be one offs. The problem is with the whole concept of democracy. Humans are not meant to rule humans by laws that humans have made themselves. This results in a disparate, deleterious dream world. Democracy never existed because it is a fantasy. Humans have never lived based on communal decision making on a large scale with any degree of success and progress.

?Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried.? Winston Churchill

Link
 
No. Democracy, in general, is a tyrannical form of government. In a democracy, the majority rules. We were set up as a Constitutional Republic where the Constitution and Bill of Rights are the highest law in the land which re-affirms our God-given natural rights. Even if the majority want, say, guns banned or overwhelm the rich & successful with taxes, it would not happen. Sadly, it is happening which means our Republic is no more.

As the framers of our Constitution stated - this Constitution is for a just and moral people. It is wholy inadequate for anyone else. We are no longer a just and moral people - I blame the liberals, Democrats, ACLU, and Federal Reserve for that.
 
Originally posted by: HalosPuma
No. Democracy, in general, is a tyrannical form of government. In a democracy, the majority rules. We were set up as a Constitutional Republic where the Constitution and Bill of Rights are the highest law in the land which re-affirms our God-given natural rights. Even if the majority want, say, guns banned or overwhelm the rich & successful with taxes, it would not happen. Sadly, it is happening which means our Republic is no more.

As the framers of our Constitution stated - this Constitution is for a just and moral people. It is wholy inadequate for anyone else. We are no longer a just and moral people - I blame the liberals, Democrats, ACLU, and Federal Reserve for that.


This coming from someone who stated he has happy about the war in Iraq, because it caused him to make a profit in some stocks. :roll:

Considering what you said is true, there's plenty of blame on the far right, too.
 
Yes, unless it is being procured for somebody who never asked for it by a third party with its own reasons for doing so.
 
Originally posted by: HalosPuma
No. Democracy, in general, is a tyrannical form of government. In a democracy, the majority rules. We were set up as a Constitutional Republic where the Constitution and Bill of Rights are the highest law in the land which re-affirms our God-given natural rights. Even if the majority want, say, guns banned or overwhelm the rich & successful with taxes, it would not happen. Sadly, it is happening which means our Republic is no more.

As the framers of our Constitution stated - this Constitution is for a just and moral people. It is wholy inadequate for anyone else. We are no longer a just and moral people - I blame the liberals, Democrats, ACLU, and Federal Reserve for that.

Hahaha...I'll admit you do have a little truth mixed in with your nonsense. 😀 Just a reminder though, democracy means rule by the people, it does not imply majority rules.
 
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
I believe every country has the right of self determination without being threatened by the aggression of others.

Does that include dictators? Do the people speak for that "right of self determination" or does the dictator?

CsG


Does your democracy include killing people against their wishes to free them?

There are other societies where they don't have elections. Tribal societies, religious societies. People there have lived that way for thousands of years and have been content to do so. Are you going to kill them too?

If people wish to rebel, then I am for it. I was glad to see Saddam go. I was not glad we waged war on the Iraqis.

You can twist and wiggle all you want in your attempts to not answer the question but it's plain to see you only want to whine about Iraq. This isn't just about Iraq incase you didn't understand that.

Here, I'll phrase my question a different way. Do you think Dictatorships are valid forms of countries with "self determination"?

CsG
 
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