Quick form check

[enwar3]

Squat
Warm-up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHgHcVZU03k
Work set: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMqFU8tsSRk

Deadlift
Warm-up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4zz3_jt_LQ
Work set: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUIc8dLgRUA

I'm especially worried about my dl. My form is never that great + I can't keep my lower back from bending on heavier weights. And I'm not even pulling that much relative to my squat, which makes me think I have major problems on the dl.

I appreciate any tips on form you guys can give me.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: enwar3
Squat
Warm-up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHgHcVZU03k
Work set: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMqFU8tsSRk

Not the best angle to see the squat from, as I can't see your feet (are you squatting in sneakers?), how far apart they are (is this an athletic squat?), what your knees are doing (are they tracking over your feet?), etc. From what I can see, the squat mostly looks ok - nice neutral back arch - but the depth is kind of borderline. You seem to get just to parallel on some reps and just above on others. I don't think it's a huge issue, but typically, getting just a little below parallel will be better as it will stretch the hamstrings and help with the hip drive. However, make sure you don't sacrifice your lower back tightness to get lower. If you find that getting deeper causes you to lose your lumbar arch, you'll need to work on your flexibility first.

Originally posted by: enwar3
Deadlift
Warm-up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4zz3_jt_LQ
Work set: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUIc8dLgRUA

Your deadlift isn't horrendous, although the lower back does round a little bit just as you start the rep. I think your biggest issue is your starting position - only after you get that fixed can you start worrying about anything else. I highly recommend watching this video where Rippetoe explains a very easy and effective way to get into the proper starting position.

1. Start in a stance width you typically use to jump, which will be quite a bit narrower than the squat stance.
2. Position the bar above the middle of your foot - this will probably be further back than you think since you can't see the part of your foot under/behind your shins. The bar will only be an inch or two from your shins.
3. Bend over and take a grip on the bar, but as you bend over, do not lower your hips. This is not a squat, so your hips should actually stay pretty high. From what I see in the video, you start with your hips low and actually end up raising them up a little just as you start the weight moving. This causes a shift in balance during your lift and you end up rounding your back slightly as a result. Starting with your hips higher and your back more flat/horizontal will make the lift feel "shorter".
4. Bring your shins in contact with the bar by bending your knees.
5. Bring your "chest up". This the cue that will get you to straighten the back and tighten all the muscles through out. Again, try to NOT lower your hips as you do this. You should find that it is actually fairly difficult to get a nice straight back in this position - it may tax your hamstring/glute/lower back flexibility - but the tightness that you generate is what will keep your back safe.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

First thing I'm gonna say without paying attention to any form: don't use the power rack for deadlifts. You know what you need for deadlifts? The floor, barbell, and weights. Let someone else do squats or rack overhead press instead of using it for something you don't need it for. It approaches the rudeness of curling in the power rack. You don't need it. Don't use it.

 

[enwar3]

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
First thing I'm gonna say without paying attention to any form: don't use the power rack for deadlifts. You know what you need for deadlifts? The floor, barbell, and weights. Let someone else do squats or rack overhead press instead of using it for something you don't need it for. It approaches the rudeness of curling in the power rack. You don't need it. Don't use it.

SociallyChallenged, the harshness of your post is uncalled for. The only barbells we have in our gym (college gym) are matched to our power racks and we have 8 of them. We have no squat racks, no bench racks, no nothing else. So 1. we normally have empty power racks and 2. we have NO OTHER barbells. I appreciate your trying to be helpful and you're probably frustrated when other people take the power rack at your gym for deads or curls, but at our gym we squat, bench, deadlift, oh press, bb row, and just about everything else bb-related on the power rack.

So will you give me tips on form now?

 

[enwar3]

Thanks for the helpful post so far!

Originally posted by: brikis98

Originally posted by: enwar3
Squat
Warm-up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHgHcVZU03k
Work set: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMqFU8tsSRk

Not the best angle to see the squat from, as I can't see your feet (are you squatting in sneakers?), how far apart they are (is this an athletic squat?), what your knees are doing (are they tracking over your feet?), etc. From what I can see, the squat mostly looks ok - nice neutral back arch - but the depth is kind of borderline. You seem to get just to parallel on some reps and just above on others. I don't think it's a huge issue, but typically, getting just a little below parallel will be better as it will stretch the hamstrings and help with the hip drive. However, make sure you don't sacrifice your lower back tightness to get lower. If you find that getting deeper causes you to lose your lumbar arch, you'll need to work on your flexibility first.

I'm squatting in sneaker-ey shoes. They're pretty flat-soled. I don't have flatter soled shoes and the gym won't let me squat barefoot. My feet are about a shoulder and a half apart. My knees end up about over my toes (or maybe a little more) but I keep my weight on my heels so there's not much more I can do about how far forward my knees go. Going deeper causes me to have to shift my back (I can still maintain a good arch but it definitely does not stay solid and unmoving through the whole lift). I've been stretching my hamstrings in the meantime.

Originally posted by: brikis98

Originally posted by: enwar3
Deadlift
Warm-up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4zz3_jt_LQ
Work set: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUIc8dLgRUA

Your deadlift isn't horrendous, although the lower back does round a little bit just as you start the rep. I think your biggest issue is your starting position - only after you get that fixed can you start worrying about anything else. I highly recommend watching this video where Rippetoe explains a very easy and effective way to get into the proper starting position.

1. Start in a stance width you typically use to jump, which will be quite a bit narrower than the squat stance.
2. Position the bar above the middle of your foot - this will probably be further back than you think since you can't see the part of your foot under/behind your shins. The bar will only be an inch or two from your shins.
3. Bend over and take a grip on the bar, but as you bend over, do not lower your hips. This is not a squat, so your hips should actually stay pretty high. From what I see in the video, you start with your hips low and actually end up raising them up a little just as you start the weight moving. This causes a shift in balance during your lift and you end up rounding your back slightly as a result. Starting with your hips higher and your back more flat/horizontal will make the lift feel "shorter".
4. Bring your shins in contact with the bar by bending your knees.
5. Bring your "chest up". This the cue that will get you to straighten the back and tighten all the muscles through out. Again, try to NOT lower your hips as you do this. You should find that it is actually fairly difficult to get a nice straight back in this position - it may tax your hamstring/glute/lower back flexibility - but the tightness that you generate is what will keep your back safe.

The video was helpful. I actually thought low hips would be better because that's a smaller angle that your back makes to the ground and therefore it's easier to maintain a solid back. I'll try what you detail in (5.) next time I'm at the gym.

Does it look like I should do some supplementary exercises for my lower back?

 

[brikis98]

enwar3 - if you don't have them already, Starting Strength and the complementary DVD are two of the best resources for learning the main barbell exercises (squat, deadlift, power clean, bench press, OH press). Just about all of your questions and form errors are discussed very thoroughly in the book. A nice secondary (but free) resource is Stronglifts, including their squat tutorial and deadlift tutorial.

Originally posted by: enwar3
I'm squatting in sneaker-ey shoes. They're pretty flat-soled. I don't have flatter soled shoes and the gym won't let me squat barefoot.

Weightlifting Shoes 101 has a decent discussion of why sneakers are not appropriate for weight training. The primary reasons are that they are not as stable as a hard soled shoe and that some of your power/energy is wasted in compressing a soft soled shoe. Moreover, for squatting, having a small (but incompressible/hard) heel in your shoes is actually beneficial, as it allows your ankles to attain a more advantageous position. I highly recommend getting a pair of weightlifting shoes from a store like muscledriverusa.com, Rogue Fitness or dynamic-eleiko. If those are out of your price range and barefoot lifting isn't allowed, a pair of Chuck Taylors is a decent alternative.

Originally posted by: enwar3
My feet are about a shoulder and a half apart.

It'll vary a bit for everyone depending on body shape, but in an athletic stance squat, the heels of your feet should end up roughly under your hips. However, since your feet should be turned out about 30 degrees, the tips of your feet will end up wider than your hips.

Originally posted by: enwar3
My knees end up about over my toes (or maybe a little more) but I keep my weight on my heels so there's not much more I can do about how far forward my knees go.

I'm not talking about how far forward your knees go, but rather how far apart the knees are. When you squat down, you should be consciously pushing your knees out (away from each other) so that, when seen from above, your knee and thigh are directly inline with the feet below them. This is essential for maintaining tension in your hamstrings and will be the key for getting proper hip drive. To practice pushing your knees out, due the squat stretch as shown in the stronglifts squat tutorial. You should feel the stretch on your inner thighs, near the groin.

Originally posted by: enwar3
Going deeper causes me to have to shift my back (I can still maintain a good arch but it definitely does not stay solid and unmoving through the whole lift). I've been stretching my hamstrings in the meantime.

Pushing your knees out more will actually help you get better depth without sacrificing your lumbar arch. Stretching your hamstrings, glutes and lower back will help too.

Originally posted by: enwar3
I actually thought low hips would be better because that's a smaller angle that your back makes to the ground and therefore it's easier to maintain a solid back.

Proper deadlift technique usually has your back more parallel to the ground than people expect. As long as you start with your shoulders just in front of the bar, start & keep the bar in contact with your shins/thighs the entire lift (yes, it'll scrape a little, deal with it), and keep your chest up to maintain a neutral/flat back, your back will be quite safe and your lift a hell of a lot stronger.

Originally posted by: enwar3
I'll try what you detail in (5.) next time I'm at the gym.

Step 5 is certainly important, but if you don't set yourself up properly with steps 1-4, it won't help.

Originally posted by: enwar3
Does it look like I should do some supplementary exercises for my lower back?

Improving your form on the deadlift should be the first priority.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: enwar3

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
First thing I'm gonna say without paying attention to any form: don't use the power rack for deadlifts. You know what you need for deadlifts? The floor, barbell, and weights. Let someone else do squats or rack overhead press instead of using it for something you don't need it for. It approaches the rudeness of curling in the power rack. You don't need it. Don't use it.

SociallyChallenged, the harshness of your post is uncalled for. The only barbells we have in our gym (college gym) are matched to our power racks and we have 8 of them. We have no squat racks, no bench racks, no nothing else. So 1. we normally have empty power racks and 2. we have NO OTHER barbells. I appreciate your trying to be helpful and you're probably frustrated when other people take the power rack at your gym for deads or curls, but at our gym we squat, bench, deadlift, oh press, bb row, and just about everything else bb-related on the power rack.

So will you give me tips on form now?

Seriously? That sounds particularly inefficient for the flow of a gym, but I digress... And I apologize for the harshness - I didn't give tips on form because I was running out the door, but needed to say that early on.

Tips on form:
Squat form is generally pretty solid. Like brikis said, it's hard to evaluate complete form because we can't see your feet, which is a problem area for some. Your neutral head position and your lumbar arch are good. However, your depth is inconsistent and is probably higher than what it should be for optimal form. If this is because you can't go lower without hindering your arch, then you probably need to stretch your glutes. Other than that, I can't complain about that form if your feet are all good (weight on heels, no creeping up onto toes).

Deadlift form isn't bad either. You seem to maintain fairly good flexibility. The rounding of your back is minimal, but could be better. Looking at the videos brikis posted, it seems like he has everything covered. That Rippetoe video is an excellent and easy way to explain how to find your deadlifting position. If you really have a problem with the slight rounding, you may want to lighten the weight up a bit and practice that way and then work your way back up. Best of luck man. Your form on both of these is fairly good so keep on striving toward perfect and you'll continue to minimize your chance of injury.

 

[enwar3]

Ok, I tried the tips, mainly following the set-up instructions in the video.

I maintained a back angle closer to parallel, but this naturally pushes my shoulders out past the bar. If I let my hands hang down from my shoulders they're almost 4 inches past where the bar is. This is if I put the bar over the middle of my foot, bend my knees to touch the bar with my shins, and then bend at the hips. This is a problem for me because I can't pull the weight up my legs. My lats aren't strong enough to push heavy weights back against my legs, so I end up "crunching" my torso to pull the bar up my legs - which bends my lower back!

So what should if I have the bar right under my shoulders and its way too far from my legs? It's incredibly hard to pull it up having it touch my legs. Should I set myself in the proper position and then "lean back" so my shoulders end up over the bar during the pulling motion?

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: enwar3
Ok, I tried the tips, mainly following the set-up instructions in the video.

I maintained a back angle closer to parallel, but this naturally pushes my shoulders out past the bar. If I let my hands hang down from my shoulders they're almost 4 inches past where the bar is. This is if I put the bar over the middle of my foot, bend my knees to touch the bar with my shins, and then bend at the hips. This is a problem for me because I can't pull the weight up my legs. My lats aren't strong enough to push heavy weights back against my legs, so I end up "crunching" my torso to pull the bar up my legs - which bends my lower back!

So what should if I have the bar right under my shoulders and its way too far from my legs? It's incredibly hard to pull it up having it touch my legs. Should I set myself in the proper position and then "lean back" so my shoulders end up over the bar during the pulling motion?

All of these issues are covered thoroughly in Starting Strength. If you're going to be spending countless hours squatting, deadlifting, etc, it's worth getting the book. You may also want to read Rippetoe's analysis of the deadlift in which he explains that the three criteria for a correct starting position for the deadlift are:

1) The back must be locked in extension.
2) The bar must be touching the shins, with the feet flat on the floor.
3) The shoulders must be out in front of the bar so that the shoulder blades are directly above the bar.

The video I linked earlier showed a procedure that should make it easy for most people to attain this position, but it sounds like you're still struggling with #3. With the shoulder blades directly above the bar, the shoulders are naturally in front of the bar and consequently, so are the hands. However, they should only be at "about a 10-degree angle from vertical" and it sounds like for you, it's quite a bit more. This means that you aren't following the procedure in the video correctly.

I'm guessing that when you have the bar over the "middle of your foot" it's actually still too far forward. Remember that when you look straight down, a lot of your foot is obscured by your shin. This means that the middle of your foot is probably further back then you expect and only about an inch or two from your shin. This means the bar will also start about an inch or two from your shin. If you then bend over to grab the bar with unlocked knees and then push your shins into contact with the bar, your arms should not suddenly end up way in front of the bar. If they do, it probably means your knees are too straight or your weight is too far forward on your toes. Try to push your butt backwards (not down) to bring your shoulders over the bar, which will hopefully change the angle of your ankle & knees until you have the proper starting position.

 

[enwar3]

Originally posted by: brikis98

Originally posted by: enwar3
Ok, I tried the tips, mainly following the set-up instructions in the video.

I maintained a back angle closer to parallel, but this naturally pushes my shoulders out past the bar. If I let my hands hang down from my shoulders they're almost 4 inches past where the bar is. This is if I put the bar over the middle of my foot, bend my knees to touch the bar with my shins, and then bend at the hips. This is a problem for me because I can't pull the weight up my legs. My lats aren't strong enough to push heavy weights back against my legs, so I end up "crunching" my torso to pull the bar up my legs - which bends my lower back!

So what should if I have the bar right under my shoulders and its way too far from my legs? It's incredibly hard to pull it up having it touch my legs. Should I set myself in the proper position and then "lean back" so my shoulders end up over the bar during the pulling motion?

All of these issues are covered thoroughly in Starting Strength. If you're going to be spending countless hours squatting, deadlifting, etc, it's worth getting the book. You may also want to read Rippetoe's analysis of the deadlift in which he explains that the three criteria for a correct starting position for the deadlift are:

1) The back must be locked in extension.
2) The bar must be touching the shins, with the feet flat on the floor.
3) The shoulders must be out in front of the bar so that the shoulder blades are directly above the bar.

The video I linked earlier showed a procedure that should make it easy for most people to attain this position, but it sounds like you're still struggling with #3. With the shoulder blades directly above the bar, the shoulders are naturally in front of the bar and consequently, so are the hands. However, they should only be at "about a 10-degree angle from vertical" and it sounds like for you, it's quite a bit more. This means that you aren't following the procedure in the video correctly.

I'm guessing that when you have the bar over the "middle of your foot" it's actually still too far forward. Remember that when you look straight down, a lot of your foot is obscured by your shin. This means that the middle of your foot is probably further back then you expect and only about an inch or two from your shin. This means the bar will also start about an inch or two from your shin. If you then bend over to grab the bar with unlocked knees and then push your shins into contact with the bar, your arms should not suddenly end up way in front of the bar. If they do, it probably means your knees are too straight or your weight is too far forward on your toes. Try to push your butt backwards (not down) to bring your shoulders over the bar, which will hopefully change the angle of your ankle & knees until you have the proper starting position.

Right.. I own the book and I read it before I started, but I think I'll go back and review.

I did check to make sure the bar was truly centered over my legs. When you say push your butt backwards... I CAN push my butt backwards to bring my shoulders over the bar, but then I'm not balanced. If I let go of the bar I would fall backwards. But then I achieve a position that looks more like the position Rip shows in the video. But it seems like if I am to maintain the correct back angle and leg angles, my shoulders end up too far forward. I do also have stubby legs.

Also, do you start from the 10-degree-from-vertical angle and naturally shift it to 0 degrees during the actual lift? Or do you maintain that 10 degrees and just make sure you're pushing the bar back with your lats? It seems like you can't really pull with maximum force and be keeping your shoulder blades at what seems to be an inefficient angle that involves extra muscles.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: enwar3
Also, do you start from the 10-degree-from-vertical angle and naturally shift it to 0 degrees during the actual lift? Or do you maintain that 10 degrees and just make sure you're pushing the bar back with your lats? It seems like you can't really pull with maximum force and be keeping your shoulder blades at what seems to be an inefficient angle that involves extra muscles.

Seriously, read the deadlift analysis PDF from rippetoe - your question is answered in depth on page 4.