Questions about protein intake

[Arkitech]

I'm looking to find the right amount of protein needs based on my weight and the level of exercise I've been performing lately. I'm currently weighing about 262 (down from 275) and my exercise routine is pretty intense, I lift weights 6 days per week and I'm doing cardio for about 6-7 days per week sometimes twice a day. I know this is a lot but I've been working up to this level and the program I'm following is based on a fairly reputable body building magazine. At any rate I took a hard look at my diet and realized that I was'nt getting enough protein, in fact I was probably taking in less than 100g of protein per day. (which explains why my progress so far has been poor) Anyway last night I read some interesting articles on protein, I saw this one from about.com and a couple of others from bodybuilding.com. It appears from the bodybuilding.com calculator I should be taking in about 468 grams of protein (that's a LOT of protein). So what's a good formula to go by? 1 gram of protein per pound of bodyweight, 2.5 grams, etc..??

This leads me to another question, in recent weeks my appetite has been reduced drastically. I find it very difficult to eat a lot of food, I'm satisfied on much less than what I was previously consuming. The problem with that is I won't get nearly the needed protein to continue making progress. So my question: Is there a limit to the number of protein shakes I should drink in a day? 1 shake is 52g of protein and on the days I don't have much of an appetite I wonder if it's ok to do about 4 of them and then get the rest of the protein I need through steak or chicken breast.

Sorry for the long rambling (and probably confusing) post, I'm really trying to learn how to improve my fitness and make some significant progress.

 

[KoolDrew]

Lean individuals will often base protein needs on total bodyweight because the difference between that and LBM isn't going to be huge and it's better to get more protein than too little, to an extent. In your case you should be basing your protein needs on LBM (your total weight minus fat weight). Measuring bodyfat can be a problem, but as long as it's in the ballpark it's fine, it doesn't need to be perfect. Most will suggest 1g per pound of LBM and generally I recommend a little bit more than this while dieting; however, in your case LBM loss isn't going to be as much of an issue as it would be with somebody leaner so I think it's a good starting point. As for the shakes, most of the protein should be from whole foods.

As for your routine, I highly doubt it's even close to optimal. I can't say I've ever seen a decent routine come out of a bodybuilding magazine. You don't have the drugs nor the genetics those bodybuilders have. What makes you think you should follow their routine? Just the frequency alone is outrageous and is almost surely going to catch up to you sooner or later, especially in a calorie deficit.

Post up your whole routine and other information. If you don't know your bodyfat percentage at least give me your height. Assuming you haven't done any training in the past, it'll give us an estimate as to what your bodyfat percentage is.

PS - John Berardi is a fucking retard.

 

[brikis98]

KoolDrew's response is spot on. Get 1-1.2g of protein per pound of LBM: e.g. if you have 25% body fat, that's 262 - (0.25 * 262) = 196lbs of LBM, so eat 196-235g of protein per day. The VAST majority of this protein should come from whole foods - a protein shake right after a workout is ok, but anymore than 1 or 2 a day probably means your diet is not optimal. It's very unlikely that you'll be able to make optimal gains lifting 6 days per week and doing cardio 6 days per week. Most professional athletes don't train that much and they have countless advantages (genetics, years of experience, perfect diets, possibly steroids) that you don't. Virtually all bodybuilding magazines are rubbish.

 

[Arkitech]

Originally posted by: KoolDrew
Lean individuals will often base protein needs on total bodyweight because the difference between that and LBM isn't going to be huge and it's better to get more protein than too little, to an extent. In your case you should be basing your protein needs on LBM (your total weight minus fat weight). Measuring bodyfat can be a problem, but as long as it's in the ballpark it's fine, it doesn't need to be perfect. Most will suggest 1g per pound of LBM and generally I recommend a little bit more than this while dieting; however, in your case LBM loss isn't going to be as much of an issue as it would be with somebody leaner so I think it's a good starting point. As for the shakes, most of the protein should be from whole foods.

This might be a real problem for me, some days I literally have no appetite, last night for example I got from shooting hoops and tried to eat a decent meal (2 oranges, protein shake, spinach and a 4-5 ounce steak) I managed to eat the oranges, drink the shake and finish half of the spinach before I was stuffed.

As for your routine, I highly doubt it's even close to optimal. I can't say I've ever seen a decent routine come out of a bodybuilding magazine. You don't have the drugs nor the genetics those bodybuilders have. What makes you think you should follow their routine?

Although it's been many years ago (more than 10) I used to train in a similar way. I've always had an advantage in putting on muscle, not sure if it's a genetic thing or if it was due to all the food I was eating back in the day. At any rate the guys I used to train with were never able to keep up with my progress, so I do have a little history of training hard with good results. But if I find I can't keep up with the routine I can always cut back.

Just the frequency alone is outrageous and is almost surely going to catch up to you sooner or later, especially in a calorie deficit.



Post up your whole routine and other information. If you don't know your bodyfat percentage at least give me your height.

My routine basically consists of a 3 day split with a day of rest in between before I jump right back in. My cardio includes 3-4 days of walking 4 miles with the wife and kids and I also include 2-3 days of playing b-ball and other forms of cardio.

Assuming you haven't done any training in the past, it'll give us an estimate as to what your bodyfat percentage is.

 

[Arkitech]

Originally posted by: brikis98
It's very unlikely that you'll be able to make optimal gains lifting 6 days per week and doing cardio 6 days per week. Most professional athletes don't train that much and they have countless advantages (genetics, years of experience, perfect diets, possibly steroids) that you don't. Virtually all bodybuilding magazines are rubbish.

I should have mentioned at the outset that this routine is only for 1 month. And the comment that virtually all bodybuilding magazines are rubbish seems extreme, many of the ones I've read have backed up their articles with published scientific articles and in some cases testimonies by athletes who have followed the guidance.

 

[Titan]

I've been doing foreman burgers to get more protien. If you squeeze the grill a lot of fat comes out and you're left with cardboard-protien. Kinda cheap if you find sales on big family packs of meat.

I also used to do coldcuts, like eat some raw kale and 1/2 pound maple ham slices. Turkey or roast beef are good too. Coldcuts tend to be more expensive, but you can find some that are cheap (like ham), but they are often very lean.

I just started doing a protein shake for breakfast again, and it's quick and give me plenty of energy to start the day.

 

[KoolDrew]

many of the ones I've read have backed up their articles with published scientific articles

Tons of authors write articles and have a huge list of references at the end. It doesn't mean anything. Not all scientific studies are created equally and many authors cherry pick studies to try and prove their point when if you actually look at the data, it doesn't support what they are actually trying to prove. They just think it does, which either has to do with their interpretation of the study or there reasoning, neither of which are always right. This is why when reading research people should be a bit more critical about things.

 

[Kipper]

Originally posted by: Arkitech

I should have mentioned at the outset that this routine is only for 1 month. And the comment that virtually all bodybuilding magazines are rubbish seems extreme, many of the ones I've read have backed up their articles with published scientific articles and in some cases testimonies by athletes who have followed the guidance.

I can't attest to the quality of the training routines, but as far as product is concerned the muscle mags are rubbish, like 99.9% of the supplements they sell.

"Published scientific articles" is a bit of a stretch, and that is exactly what they do - stretch the science, like generalize an animal study to a human study, selectively quote from articles or take an industry funded study and spin it a different way. Many of these magazines promote the same products in their articles which their magazine is FULL of ads for. There is an obvious conflict of interest.

PARTICULARLY when the barriers to entry into the industry...well, there are really no barriers to entry. There was a particularly good exposé on the industry in Sports Illustrated:

http://vault.sportsillustrated...e/MAG1155395/index.htm

Particularly interesting are the extensive links that quasi-academic organizations like the "International Society for Sports Nutrition" have to this completely unregulated industry.

Finally, I feel that I should point out that you should be careful not get caught in the "protein trap." You say it's difficult to eat a lot of food, and understandably, people in the same bag can end up focusing only on the protein-rich foods and neglect the others, to the detriment of their diet. Carbohydrates are particularly vital for a weightlifting regimen, and so are the rest - vegetables, fruits, etc. Don't forget that these foods yield protein as well. It's not just meat, meat, meat, meat, meat.

 

[Arkitech]

Originally posted by: Kipper

Originally posted by: Arkitech

I should have mentioned at the outset that this routine is only for 1 month. And the comment that virtually all bodybuilding magazines are rubbish seems extreme, many of the ones I've read have backed up their articles with published scientific articles and in some cases testimonies by athletes who have followed the guidance.

I can't attest to the quality of the training routines, but as far as product is concerned the muscle mags are rubbish, like 99.9% of the supplements they sell.

"Published scientific articles" is a bit of a stretch, and that is exactly what they do - stretch the science, like generalize an animal study to a human study, selectively quote from articles or take an industry funded study and spin it a different way. Many of these magazines promote the same products in their articles which their magazine is FULL of ads for. There is an obvious conflict of interest.

PARTICULARLY when the barriers to entry into the industry...well, there are really no barriers to entry. There was a particularly good exposé on the industry in Sports Illustrated:

http://vault.sportsillustrated...e/MAG1155395/index.htm

Particularly interesting are the extensive links that quasi-academic organizations like the "International Society for Sports Nutrition" have to this completely unregulated industry.

Finally, I feel that I should point out that you should be careful not get caught in the "protein trap." You say it's difficult to eat a lot of food, and understandably, people in the same bag can end up focusing only on the protein-rich foods and neglect the others, to the detriment of their diet. Carbohydrates are particularly vital for a weightlifting regimen, and so are the rest - vegetables, fruits, etc. Don't forget that these foods yield protein as well. It's not just meat, meat, meat, meat, meat.

Originally posted by: KoolDrew

Tons of authors write articles and have a huge list of references at the end. It doesn't mean anything. Not all scientific studies are created equally and many authors cherry pick studies to try and prove their point when if you actually look at the data, it doesn't support what they are actually trying to prove. They just think it does, which either has to do with their interpretation of the study or there reasoning, neither of which are always right. This is why when reading research people should be a bit more critical about things.

I don't take information from any one source as being gospel which is why I'm soliciting opinions from the board here. However I do think that some of those magazines provide useful information, I've seen people benefit from some of the routines and diets they publish.

In response to Kipper, right now my diet looks like the following:

Breakfast: (one of the following: scambled eggs with onion, green pepper and cheese followed by fruit and a protein shake or yogurt with granola or oatmeal and sliced banana followed by a protein shake or diced chicken breast over salad with mango, oranges and apples followed by a protein shake)

Lunch: (lately for me I prefer to have a salad for lunch, which is usually a chicken breast diced and sauteed and served over romaine hearts and baby spinach. I usually alternate between doing a caesar style salad or a tropical fruit style salad. On days I lift weights I have a protein shake after my workout and before lunch.)

Dinner: (I usually go with more chicken for dinner or perhaps a steak or ground beef. Sometimes I'll have rice on the side or 2 small red potatoes, I'll usually also have veggies like spinach, greens (kale, collard, mustard, etc..) green beans, asparagus, etc.. For dessert I'll have some cold fruit (pineapple, oranges, watermelon, etc..) and a protein shake before bed.

Not sure if that's the most balanced diet, but I think it's healthy and it keeps me filled up pretty well. On days when I'm more hungry I might snack on almonds or spread a little peanut butter on apple slices. This is kind of a new eating plan for me along with my training routine, at the end of 30 days I'll evaluate the progress.