Questions about bathroom Reno

[Denly]

Looking into update the bathroom in my cottage house, and have a few quick question.

Oh before I ask I am reasonable handy and have most of the tools I need but I have not do tiles before.

The lady want to replace the bath tub from 30"x15" height to 30x20"(maybe 21"), with the added weight do I need to beef up the support?

now it have those wrap around above the tub and I am looking to replace it with tiles. Assuming it is dry wall behind it what do I need to do to prep the wall before tiles? Or I will have rip everything off?

Any other advise are welcome.

 

[jaha2000]

If its a 1 pice tub/surround there is a good chance there is no drywall behind it.
I would take the drywall off up to the ceiling and replace with tile backer board.
As far as the water weight increase, what type of floor joists are underneath?

 

[Denly]

If its a 1 pice tub/surround there is a good chance there is no drywall behind it.
I would take the drywall off up to the ceiling and replace with tile backer board.
As far as the water weight increase, what type of floor joists are underneath?

Tiles backer board do I need anything else before tiles? And how thick should I use?

It is a muddy crawl space, I will have to crawl in there to 2x check the floor joint.

 

[Greenman]

If it's a reasonably modern house the floor joists will be fine. The tile backer board will be 1/2" thick wonderboard, Durock, or Hardibacker (I prefer hardibacker). You need a layer of 15lb felt paper behind it.

 

[Denly]

If it's a reasonably modern house the floor joists will be fine. The tile backer board will be 1/2" thick wonderboard, Durock, or Hardibacker (I prefer hardibacker). You need a layer of 15lb felt paper behind it.

That section of the house is new addition, the joists looks very new. My guess is 15yrs.

Felt paper? Like the one for roof? Interesting, not the colorful membrane.

So joist -> backer board -> felt paper(or membrane)

thanks.

 

[Greenman]

That section of the house is new addition, the joists looks very new. My guess is 15yrs.

Felt paper? Like the one for roof? Interesting, not the colorful membrane.

So joist -> backer board -> felt paper(or membrane)

thanks.

Slow down sparky.
First you gut the bath, re-plumb as necessary, install the new tub, put 15lb felt on the walls (properly lapped), then backer board, then tile.

I would be remiss if I didn't suggest that this project is beyond your ability. The questions you're asking make it apparent that you have no clear idea on how to proceed. A bath remodel is easy to so, and easier to screw up. You don't want to spend several thousand dollars and end up with a poor job that's rough looking and already starting to fail.
If you really want to do it yourself, you're going to have to have clear communication and pictures or we'll all be guessing at what you're trying to do. That won't end well.

 

[paperfist]

Slow down sparky.
First you gut the bath, re-plumb as necessary, install the new tub, put 15lb felt on the walls (properly lapped), then backer board, then tile.

I would be remiss if I didn't suggest that this project is beyond your ability. The questions you're asking make it apparent that you have no clear idea on how to proceed. A bath remodel is easy to so, and easier to screw up. You don't want to spend several thousand dollars and end up with a poor job that's rough looking and already starting to fail.
If you really want to do it yourself, you're going to have to have clear communication and pictures or we'll all be guessing at what you're trying to do. That won't end well.

What the felt for before the cement board?

From watching a zillion Mike Holmes shows they always made it a point to say you should have a barrier like Kerdi board after the cement board because cement board is not water proof and the membrane is.

I'm about to demo a bathroom I did about 10 years ago with cement board and then tile from the tub to the ceiling. I can't wait to see if I have Black Death behind it.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

There is always mold and always some rot found in bathroom remodels don't be bummed out if you have some

 

[DrPizza]

What the felt for before the cement board?

From watching a zillion Mike Holmes shows they always made it a point to say you should have a barrier like Kerdi board after the cement board because cement board is not water proof and the membrane is.

I'm about to demo a bathroom I did about 10 years ago with cement board and then tile from the tub to the ceiling. I can't wait to see if I have Black Death behind it.

I agree with putting a membrane over the hardibacker; Red Guard works quite well - 2 coats. The reason for the felt is for future protection in case of water penetration to the hardibacker. Just a tiny bit of settling and you could end up with a crack along a corner.

So, OP: gut it down to the 2x4's, install new tub, plumbing, etc.

Then: felt paper (I've seen some videos on youtube where contractors use a thicker plastic; and they only go up as high as the wall is going to get wet.) I've also seen at least one contractor on youtube using the sticky flashing stuff that you use to seal around exterior windows when doing house wrap - that could be used around the lip of the tub, hidden by the hardibacker and tile.

Then, hardibacker. Seams of hardibacker get taped with an alkali resistant tape, and thinset. (Like doing drywall seams, except drywall tape isn't resistant to the alkali in the thinset.)

Then Red Guard, 2 coats.

Then tile.

Then grout.

Learn how and where to start your tile - first row does not go against tub - that's the last row you do. Start 1 row up, and attach a ledger board to keep your starter row perfectly level. It's really not hard to do if you watch a bunch of youtube videos on the best techniques, and pay VERY close attention to details. Plan out all of the tiling, measure multiple times, to make sure you don't run into problems where you start and where you finish. You don't want a row to need to be 1/4" wide or something.


One of my friends just hired the same contractor I tried to politely tell her in the past was cutting way too many corners. She just had a custom shower put in by that contractor. The entire construction was regular 2x4's and drywall, with the exception of a seat in the shower. The top of the seat was hardibacker - the front of the seat was drywall !!! Then, he tiled over the drywall. The floor prep: drill hole in existing floor, install drain lines and floor drain fitting, tile over existing floor. No slope to the floor at all. I sent link after link to her, showing how to do the job right, and suggested she research and stop him before he tiled. But, his last job he did, right before they moved out of their old house, looked so nice. And, the finished product on this one *looks* nice. It'll be lucky to last 3 years.

 

[Denly]

Dr.P

I am fairly confident I can get it done as long as I know exactly what needed.

My biggest concern are the layers which Dr. asked.

Also if I need more support for the tub which looks like I am ok. Right?

Thanks.

 

[paperfist]

I agree with putting a membrane over the hardibacker; Red Guard works quite well - 2 coats. The reason for the felt is for future protection in case of water penetration to the hardibacker. Just a tiny bit of settling and you could end up with a crack along a corner.

So, OP: gut it down to the 2x4's, install new tub, plumbing, etc.

Then: felt paper (I've seen some videos on youtube where contractors use a thicker plastic; and they only go up as high as the wall is going to get wet.) I've also seen at least one contractor on youtube using the sticky flashing stuff that you use to seal around exterior windows when doing house wrap - that could be used around the lip of the tub, hidden by the hardibacker and tile.

Then, hardibacker. Seams of hardibacker get taped with an alkali resistant tape, and thinset. (Like doing drywall seams, except drywall tape isn't resistant to the alkali in the thinset.)

Then Red Guard, 2 coats.

Then tile.

Then grout.

Learn how and where to start your tile - first row does not go against tub - that's the last row you do. Start 1 row up, and attach a ledger board to keep your starter row perfectly level. It's really not hard to do if you watch a bunch of youtube videos on the best techniques, and pay VERY close attention to details. Plan out all of the tiling, measure multiple times, to make sure you don't run into problems where you start and where you finish. You don't want a row to need to be 1/4" wide or something.


One of my friends just hired the same contractor I tried to politely tell her in the past was cutting way too many corners. She just had a custom shower put in by that contractor. The entire construction was regular 2x4's and drywall, with the exception of a seat in the shower. The top of the seat was hardibacker - the front of the seat was drywall !!! Then, he tiled over the drywall. The floor prep: drill hole in existing floor, install drain lines and floor drain fitting, tile over existing floor. No slope to the floor at all. I sent link after link to her, showing how to do the job right, and suggested she research and stop him before he tiled. But, his last job he did, right before they moved out of their old house, looked so nice. And, the finished product on this one *looks* nice. It'll be lucky to last 3 years.

So the tar paper is being 'tucked' in front of the tub lip and basically acting like a drain from the backer board back into the tub?

 

[paperfist]

Dr.P

I am fairly confident I can get it done as long as I know exactly what needed.

My biggest concern are the layers which Dr. asked.

Also if I need more support for the tub which looks like I am ok. Right?

Thanks.

I wouldn't worry about another 5" of tub. If your switching out to a double jacuzzi tub then I'd worry about the extra weight.

If your really concerned it's more important to know which way the tub lays on the joists (is it on one or two or several?) and what the span of the joists are ie the distance between load bearing walls the joists rests on.

 

[jaha2000]

I wouldn't worry about another 5" of tub. If your switching out to a double jacuzzi tub then I'd worry about the extra weight.

If your really concerned it's more important to know which way the tub lays on the joists (is it on one or two or several?) and what the span of the joists are ie the distance between load bearing walls the joists rests on.

5" of tub represents a significant increase percentage wise. Just because they are new, does not mean they are big enough for that. Just check that out when you rip the tub out if its in a crawl space. I would take pictures and more pictures when you have all that stuff apart just for future information. You never know when you might need to get back in there.

 

[Denly]

^^ Will get the pic asap. thx

 

[Greenman]

What the felt for before the cement board?

From watching a zillion Mike Holmes shows they always made it a point to say you should have a barrier like Kerdi board after the cement board because cement board is not water proof and the membrane is.

I'm about to demo a bathroom I did about 10 years ago with cement board and then tile from the tub to the ceiling. I can't wait to see if I have Black Death behind it.

Mike Holmes overbuilds everything because material and labor are free, and he has all the time he needs to do it. He also has sponsors that want him to show off their products.
In the real world, there is a budget, a schedule, and no sponsor supplying free material.

Cement board isn't waterproof, that's why there is felt behind it.

 

[Greenman]

Doc, aren't you stuck using mastic over red guard?

Edit: Just checked, looks like you don't have to use mastic.

 

[DrPizza]

Doc, aren't you stuck using mastic over red guard?

Edit: Just checked, looks like you don't have to use mastic.

I did use a mastic, behind the hardibacker where the hardibacker overlaps the lip of the floor pan. Felt paper overlapped the top of the mastic. Even if the silicone fails on the bottom of the tile, I still won't get water penetration from below.

 

[NetWareHead]

Good thread and by reading this, I have a few questions to ask my tile guy. We will be installing tile possibly end of January.

 

[Greenman]

I did use a mastic, behind the hardibacker where the hardibacker overlaps the lip of the floor pan. Felt paper overlapped the top of the mastic. Even if the silicone fails on the bottom of the tile, I still won't get water penetration from below.

I was thinking that mastic was necessary to stick the tile to the redgaurd.

 

[Denly]

So, OP: gut it down to the 2x4's, install new tub, plumbing, etc.

Then: felt paper

Then, hardibacker. Seams of hardibacker get taped with an alkali resistant tape, and thinset.

Then Red Guard, 2 coats.

Then tile.

Then grout.

Hold on sec, hardibacker -> thinset -> Red guard -> tile?

Sorry if that sound too dumb, shouldn't it be hardibacker -> Red guard -> thinset -> tile?

 

[paperfist]

5" of tub represents a significant increase percentage wise. Just because they are new, does not mean they are big enough for that. Just check that out when you rip the tub out if its in a crawl space. I would take pictures and more pictures when you have all that stuff apart just for future information. You never know when you might need to get back in there.

26 pounds per sq'?

 

[paperfist]

Mike Holmes overbuilds everything because material and labor are free, and he has all the time he needs to do it. He also has sponsors that want him to show off their products.
In the real world, there is a budget, a schedule, and no sponsor supplying free material.

Cement board isn't waterproof, that's why there is felt behind it.

While I agree he's an over builder, I don't disagree with his philosophy. Unless the added cost is massive I'd rather have it done right the first time instead of worrying about it later or worse having to redo it later. BTW, when Holmes first started he did the same without advertisers behind him.

So if you use membrane over the cement board you wouldn't need felt paper behind it. Besides you're going to be penetrating the felt paper to fasten it and the cement board.

 

[Greenman]

While I agree he's an over builder, I don't disagree with his philosophy. Unless the added cost is massive I'd rather have it done right the first time instead of worrying about it later or worse having to redo it later. BTW, when Holmes first started he did the same without advertisers behind him.

So if you use membrane over the cement board you wouldn't need felt paper behind it. Besides you're going to be penetrating the felt paper to fasten it and the cement board.

There is good enough, then overkill. You could add three four or five layers to your shower walls, but it's not necessary. If it's inexpensive, and makes you feel better about the job then do it, but it might not help.
Most of the baths I do are tile over mortar bed. The only membrane is tar paper. I've pulled those assembly's out that were over 60 years old with no visible rot or decay. I just pulled out a shower that was 10 years old, used four times a day, and it had no evidence of failure or leakage. It was Hardibacker nailed to framing, no waterproof membrane at all. While it's not something I'd do, it obviously worked.

Tight joint ceramic tile with non sanded grout is almost water proof, there should be very little moisture coming through the assembly. Most systems in use today rely on providing a path for that moisture to escape, and they work as long as you pay attention to the details. Beyond that you can spend as much time and effort as you want to achieve a totally water tight instillation, but understand that you're buying piece of mind, not a better job.

Edit: If waterproof integrity is your primary concern, a one or two piece fiberglass unit will never leak. But they look cheap and flimsy.

 

[gururu2]

I would advise against putting two waterproof barriers. If one is breached it will collect water vapor inside and never dry out appropriately rotting all the inside adhesives. Only one (kerdi or red guard) is necessary and that goes on top of the hardi or cement board (durock). Rip the old drywall or greenboard out and screw the newly cut boards directly to the studs as you would dry wall. The only thing I would use tar paper or felt for is to shim the backer level against the studs (leveling is probably the hardest part).
Follow kerdi or redguard instructions on what thinsets recommended.

It doesn't sound like you will have to change the the plumbing with the same 30" W design.
If the tub length is on and perpendicular to joists you should be ok. If it is mostly between two parallel joists maybe add some blockers at the minimum.

Buy lots of extra tile by the way (+20%).

 

[Humpy]

Anyone who is installing tile should get a copy of the TCNA Handbook and read it. When tile is done right it is done in one of the ways detailed within.