Question to the 'Old Vets' on this board . . .

[CaptnKirk]

Did you really ever see 'The Protesters' ?

I never saw them in person, or face to face.
All I ever saw was the Media Coverage that hyped up their existance.
There was all the 'Spitting on those brave men upon their return' - as it was reported,
But I never actually saw it with my own eyes, never had a confrontation with a 'Peac-Nik'
and I had been to many places where this had the opportunity to have occured.

Also in talking to fellow Vets who had returned later than me (I got back in '67) none
of them ever was able to report a face to face incident, or having witnessed it either.

I have overheard comments about 'Them Damn Hippies' pissin' on our troops,
but none of the Vets that I have ever spoken with can recall it happening to them,
or even seeing it upon their return - so those incidents must have been isolated
either by opportunity or area by political affiliation. Kent State, Berkeley, Etc.

Thise who were the 'Protesters' then, were upset about being subject to the draft,
and they were the 'Rich Kids' who were loosing their deferment status, todays GOP.

Maybe it's anouther unfounded 'Urban Legend'
Media Hype, of what was not - more 'Memory' than fact.

 

[Brutuskend]

I was in the Marines during Nam, but I was never "In country". (I was Air Wing)
I will say they the military in general was very un popular during those times though.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Most protesters were located where they could get media coverage.

It seem that when they knew that they could get coverage, more showed up. Almost if they were informed in advance.

I have talked to some people that had it happened to, but they seemed to be in the minority.

The small towns seemed to suppor their poeple/troops much more than the college liberal areas.

 

[Train]

I'd always assumed the vietnam reaction was much nastier, id be surprised to find out differently.

I had some pretty nasty things said to me when I got back (From Iraq). People even protesting at a funeral yelling obscenities at the mother and wife of the deceased.

Lets just say it was a good thing we had blanks for the rifle salute.

 

[CaptnKirk]

Before I went there I was stationed at Travis.
Had many times where in my Bay-Area travels I got to talk with those in school in the area.
Some of my classmates from San Diego went to Berkeley, and I visited and attended
some of thier parties. Never once were any of them hostile or offensive too my being
in the service, their gripe was not with the individual, it was with the Establishment.

Returning to the States after 'Nam I was stationed in Lubbock, Texas - Reese AFB
and I felt more threatened by the local shit-kickin' hat wearin' CowBoy then by anyone
who was going to school at Texas Tech, home of the Red Raiders !
Those drugstore Cowboys with their Easy-Rider Rifle Racks in the window of their Chevy
P-Cups were more of a threat to us than we were to their women (perceived lust)

I went to the East Coast for a job search in early '70, and was in Kent State 2 days before
the National Guard incident, visited a friend and his sister going to school there, not a bit
of hostility at thet time, but obviously all hell broke loose a few days later.

Still - no soldier that I personally knew ever encountered the 'Stereotype Protester'.
I'm sure that there were some, just the Media blew it up for the headlines.

Oh - Did you know that the 'Protesters' at the 1968 Democratic National Convention,
the ones that raised all the hell, had been hired by the Nixon Machine to disrupt it,
and make a political scene to damage the perception of Humphrey, courtroom trial fact.

Edit - to delete 'Dukakis' & insert 'Humphrey' - one loser out, another loser in.
(Thanks Red for the info)

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
Before I went there I was stationed at Travis.
Had many times where in my Bay-Area travels I got to talk with those in school in the area.
Some of my classmates from San Diego went to Berkeley, and I visited and attended
some of thier parties. Never once were any of them hostile or offensive too my being
in the service, their gripe was not with the individual, it was with the Establishment.

Returning to the States after 'Nam I was stationed in Lubbock, Texas - Reese AFB
and I felt more threatened by the local shit-kickin' hat wearin' CowBoy then by anyone
who was going to school at Texas Tech, home of the Red Raiders !
Those drugstore Cowboys with their Easy-Rider Rifle Racks in the window of their Chevy
P-Cups were more of a threat to us than we were to their women (perceived lust)

I went to the East Coast for a job search in early '70, and was in Kent State 2 days before
the National Guard incident, visited a friend and his sister going to school there, not a bit
of hostility at thet time, but obviously all hell broke loose a few days later.

Still - no soldier that I personally knew ever encountered the 'Stereotype Protester'.
I'm sure that there were some, just the Media blew it up for the headlines.

Oh - Did you know that the 'Protesters' at the 1968 Democratic National Convention,
the ones that raised all the hell, had been hired by the Nixon Machine to disrupt it,
and make a political scene to damage the perception of Dukakis, courtroom trial fact.

You mean Humphrey?

 

[CaptnKirk]

Humphry - Dukakis, loosers are interchangeable.

Yeah, I think it was 'Dump the Hump' in '68

I had just got out of the Service, left Texas & returned to San Diego.

 

[b0mbrman]

I'm neither old nor a vet quite yet but I did Army ROTC at Berkeley and us cadets were protested against on days when it was widely known we'd be outside (i.e. orientation day or open house type days). This happened on at least 3 occasions--both pre and post-9/11--and the number of protesters never seemed to exceed a few dozen. The protests were always loud and showy but never anything near violent...I can't speak for all of the recent history at Cal because I only had to be in the program for two years since I was prior-enlisted coming in...

BTW, why does the avatar called "Military_Man" look like a Marine?

 

[Train]

Originally posted by: b0mbrman
BTW, why does the avatar called "Military_Man" look like a Marine?

I definetly liked seeing the 8-point cover, but it its incorrect, there is no EGA on it :frown: (though technically the Navy wears 8-point covers at times) I was going to say something in Forum Issues, as in requesting more service-specific and correct avatars (I wanted to be cool with my Digital MARPAT with the EGA on it ) but figured that would be too much for this forum.

 

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: b0mbrman
BTW, why does the avatar called "Military_Man" look like a Marine?

I definetly liked seeing the 8-point cover, but it its incorrect, there is no EGA on it :frown: (though technically the Navy wears 8-point covers at times) I was going to say something in Forum Issues, as in requesting more service-specific and correct avatars (I wanted to be cool with my Digital MARPAT with the EGA on it ) but figured that would be too much for this forum.

Ah, I forgot about that...there was a period of time when a Navy EOD guy worked with our unit--pretty much wore the 8-point exclusively

 

[Jhhnn]

I wasn't there, never served, and actively protested the war. When guys I knew returned from 'Nam, we pretty much greeted them warmly, asked them what it was like. The invariable answer was "fscked up", particularly from anybody who'd seen much combat... To which I'd reply, "too bad, lemme buy you a beer." or "yeh, take a toke off of this."

Before it was all over, many were protesting with us, although there were a few pretty hardcore rightwing types on the other side, the same guys who are still all twisted up about it... to the best of my recollection, nobody treated vets badly, at all, unless they were of the stiffdick knobs-twisted-off-the-scale kinda guys, and they were mostly just shunned... beyond hope or help, seriously damaged, and unfortunately some still are...

If anything, we felt guilty that they'd suffered and we hadn't, and that our efforts hadn't been more successful towards bringing them home... We were hippies, peaceniks, opposed to violence, the vast majority of which occurred at the time being instigated by the authorities or by government agent provocateurs hidden in our ranks... or at least that's the way it seemed at the time and in retrospect.

I'm glad for those who made it back, and have a short list of names I want to look up if I ever make it to the wall...

 

[UltraQuiet]

I'm glad for those who made it back, and have a short list of names I want to look up if I ever make it to the wall...

It's something you'll never forget. There's a traveling wall also. It goes to a lot of the military bases. If you're serious about seeing it, look for it there.

I saw the WWII Memorial back in July. Very impressive/emotional.

 

[Perknose]

I'm not formally claiming to be an "old vet" here, but I lived through that period and I can also say that I never saw nor experienced any of that Urban Legend "spit on the returning vet" crapola.

So, thanks, CaptnKirk, for bringing this up.

I can say that I know a disproportinate number of young men who died in 'Nam. Such a bitter waste. For nearly 20 years, my good friend Steve would fly out from LA every summer and we'd go visit the wall, usually over the July 4th weekend. We had and have deeply personal reasons for going, but there is no one who would go there who could help but being moved.

It deeply pains me to see us repeating mistakes I thought we'd pay with the blood of our young in Irag. The cultural ignorance, the hubris, the lies. The mistaken idea that force trumps all. It does not.

 

[CaptnKirk]

I have never made it to The Wall, and have barely missed the Traveling Wall - twice.
I have really mixed emotions about even seeing it face to face. I choke up thinking about it.

In the back of my mind I keep thinking that I will see my name there . . . and just fade away.

A very close friend of mine did the 18 month grunt as a radioman late '68 into early '70.
Another close friend of mine and I arrived back into the states at the same time, him to
get out & me between duty stations, and we made the drive up to see him at Fort Ord
while he was going through basic. The D.I. talked with us for 1/2 hour & gave us another
hour visitation in the Day Room - time well spent.

I finished my tour, returned to San Diego, and met him when he returned - unhurt.
He languished in the fact that he had been through so much and seen so much happen to
his friends, that he could not handle the 'guilt' of not getting a scratch, while so many of his
close mud buddies had been lost. Physically untouched, mentally torched.

He remembers things like colapsing from fatigue just above a save fox hole or some such
depression that offered shelter, and not being able to get there, physically crushed & emotionally
spent. And this was happening to everyone at some time out in the field in skirmishes.
He said that somehow someone would find it in themselves to reach up and pull them to safety.

Sometimes it was he who was pulled to safety, sometimes it was his turn to be the one that pulled.
He never could cope with having made it, he felt that somehow he cheated death at the expense of others.

Some who made it back released thier anger on the citizens of the towns they moved to. Snap.

 

[Feldenak]

When my father returned he was met by protesters. He arrived in Seattle in January still in his jungle fatigues. Some protester got a broken nose for spitting in his face.

 

[Feldenak]

Originally posted by: UltraQuiet

I'm glad for those who made it back, and have a short list of names I want to look up if I ever make it to the wall...

It's something you'll never forget. There's a traveling wall also. It goes to a lot of the military bases. If you're serious about seeing it, look for it there.

I saw the WWII Memorial back in July. Very impressive/emotional.

My dad won't go see The Wall. I've been to D.C. with him since it was built and he makes a point of not going there. Even today, he'll get this spooky look in his eyes and get real quiet whenever an old Huey flies within earshot.

 

[CaptnKirk]

he'll get this spooky look in his eyes and get real quiet whenever an old Huey flies within earshot.

I can 'feel' the vibration of a helicopter before anyone can hear it. It just sends out a sub-auditory
sensation that lets you know it's approaching. Yeah, real spooky.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Lots of guys didnt have trouble with protesters, but some did get screwed when applying for jobs. Happened too often

 

[LunarRay]

If one person dies the result of their service they have given all they had to a cause they believed or maybe didn't believe was in their Nation's best interest. They were in that circumstance because they were ordered to do what resulted in their contribution.
When you defeat an enemy as in World War II the living veterans can march in parades and celebrate for years and be proud... the dead... the dead..
When you don't defeat an enemy as in Korea... the living veterans can still march and hoist a brew but, not with the same pride as the earlier defenders did... and the dead ...
When you lose to an enemy as in Vietnam... the living veteran can only hoist a brew and with pride tell of the horror they endured. They don't have a unified nation welcoming them back with a pat on the back and parades... they have only themselves and their buddies... Sinn Fein... in Irish.. is "ourselves alone".
And the dead... an entire generation will have to leave this earth before that Vietnam monument with those names ... those brave men and women who gave their all... will pass on into history...

Things happen to folks when they visit that monument... I saw folks pointing with pride to their Dad or Granddad as if he was there... there in that wall ... they'd touch the name and weep..... but, weep with pride.. Somehow in some manner that place is special.. more so than any other place on earth... It is a place where folks can go and remember or again feel or find that even with so many names.. Sinn Fein!

 

[OffTopic1]

This thread is very emotional to me, even those I?m not a Vet. However, lived through the Tet Offensive, and escaped the Vietnamese regime in 1980.

What I really want to say is, thank you for helping us.

 

[LunarRay]

Offtopic,
WE are each alone, aren't we. We are the victim or beneficiary of circumstances that we are unlikely to have affected one way or another.
What, I wonder do the million or so left dead in Vietnam think about it all... if they could? Is the attempt to bring Freedom worth that price? Perhaps to you, yes, but, to them what about the price they paid. Did they want to pay it? Was it forced upon them? Would they have been happy with their family intact no matter the politics?
If a people attack the USA we don't endeavor to bring them Freedom ... we try to bring them death! The people of Vietnam did not attack me but yet I brought them death. The horror of power... the insanity of man's cruelty to man to achieve it.

You survived Tet ... early February 1968... those few weeks.. You're a Vet OK... A Veteran of a determined people who looked at death and smiled, who looked at power and charged, who decided all the people of Vietnam will be free... free to be the people of Vietnam... and for better or worse... they are!

 

[OffTopic1]

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Offtopic,
WE are each alone, aren't we. We are the victim or beneficiary of circumstances that we are unlikely to have affected one way or another.
What, I wonder do the million or so left dead in Vietnam think about it all... if they could? Is the attempt to bring Freedom worth that price? Perhaps to you, yes, but, to them what about the price they paid. Did they want to pay it? Was it forced upon them? Would they have been happy with their family intact no matter the politics?
If a people attack the USA we don't endeavor to bring them Freedom ... we try to bring them death! The people of Vietnam did not attack me but yet I brought them death. The horror of power... the insanity of man's cruelty to man to achieve it.

You survived Tet ... early February 1968... those few weeks.. You're a Vet OK... A Veteran of a determined people who looked at death and smiled, who looked at power and charged, who decided all the people of Vietnam will be free... free to be the people of Vietnam... and for better or worse... they are!

I don?t know what the dead though of being cheated out of life, and what their feeling because they were taken advantage of by their government. But, If I was in their shoes I wouldn?t be ashamed of what I do, however I would be sad of not having the time to spend with my love ones. And, what is freedom when your life is manipulated through lies?

I personally have lost many family members in the war on both North/South (brothers/sisters family were forced to fight & killed each others indirectly). Some died while in the service & some died as civilian. And, the one thing that I regret most is that I don?t have clear memory of my best friends/playmates/cousins that passed away because of the war.

 

[Feldenak]

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
he'll get this spooky look in his eyes and get real quiet whenever an old Huey flies within earshot.

I can 'feel' the vibration of a helicopter before anyone can hear it. It just sends out a sub-auditory
sensation that lets you know it's approaching. Yeah, real spooky.

Yeah, he'd get quiet before anyone else heard the chopper...

 

[Moonbeam]

Unfortunately self hate makes people very dependent on external praise or criticism. We basically experience as out there what we feel inside. I think the swift boat veterans, as an example, are still experiencing denial. They have not been able to accommodate to the fact that the war was a mistake. They have that hopeless need for external affirmation. Their self hate is now directed at Kerry.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: OffTopic

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Offtopic,
WE are each alone, aren't we. We are the victim or beneficiary of circumstances that we are unlikely to have affected one way or another.
What, I wonder do the million or so left dead in Vietnam think about it all... if they could? Is the attempt to bring Freedom worth that price? Perhaps to you, yes, but, to them what about the price they paid. Did they want to pay it? Was it forced upon them? Would they have been happy with their family intact no matter the politics?
If a people attack the USA we don't endeavor to bring them Freedom ... we try to bring them death! The people of Vietnam did not attack me but yet I brought them death. The horror of power... the insanity of man's cruelty to man to achieve it.

You survived Tet ... early February 1968... those few weeks.. You're a Vet OK... A Veteran of a determined people who looked at death and smiled, who looked at power and charged, who decided all the people of Vietnam will be free... free to be the people of Vietnam... and for better or worse... they are!

I don?t know what the dead though of being cheated out of life, and what their feeling because they were taken advantage of by their government. But, If I was in their shoes I wouldn?t be ashamed of what I do, however I would be sad of not having the time to spend with my love ones. And, what is freedom when your life is manipulated through lies?

I personally have lost many family members in the war on both North/South (brothers/sisters family were forced to fight & killed each others indirectly). Some died while in the service & some died as civilian. And, the one thing that I regret most is that I don?t have clear memory of my best friends/playmates/cousins that passed away because of the war.

In all things regarding war it is best to determine the cost first. There must be some point at which it is better to let what is be as it is.
At the time I thought all the best things about the war. I thought the NVA and the VC were the enemy and IF the opportunity arose for me to eliminate one or more I'd have surely taken it and done so with determination. I thought the hamlets and towns were populated by honest simple folk... that there were lives lost never entered my thinking.. even at the hands of the VC... I thought of it as what an enemy does.
Today I think alot differently...

I only wish folks could settle disputes by taking the government leaders on to an Island and let them battle each other... the ones who survive... win... till the next group arises...
I am saddened by your loss... and even though you thanked me and others earlier for helping... I wish that task had passed me by.. or I did a much better job of it..