Question on this used car.

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: serialkiller
Wow, thank you all for the great info and opinions. I have decided to shoot the seller a lower price for the car. After reading this thread and talking to a service manager at a subaru dealer. Even $16k for this vehicle seems excessive after doing all the math. Thanks again for all the info, and please keep posting if anymore as I plan to read the thread for a while.

Jorge

I would recommend you visit NASIOC and find a knowledgeable individual or mod shop in your area. The WRX community is awesome, although it's not nearly as strong in the East as the West Coast. You will get much better information from NASIOC. If you wanted a vehicle closer to stock, you could easily sell/trade the mods and make a profit. But I wouldn't do that b/c a quality Cobb tune with suspension mods is a nice vehicle.

I purchased a highly modified '02 WRX (400hp). An utterly ridiculous automobile that I had to sell after 4 months b/c I couldn't get it past emissions testing. My vehicle had 20k miles on it with well over $10k in mods . . . including a standalone fuel management system. I bought it on eBay for 18k and sold it for 19k.



Those mods (all the way down to those wheels that look like Prodrives PFF7s) are nice go fast bits. Assuming this is a true Cobb Stage II, then the 285hp is a good AND reliable mod. IMO, you should drive a stock WRX and then compare. If you like the way a moderately modded WRX drives then you may have quite a bargain on your hands @ 16k.

Cobb Tuning

If you shop around for a Subie dealer you will find some are quite happy to have your business AND honor the original warranty.

Significant issues:

1) 2002 has a TSB for an ECU recalibration for the brakes.
2) 02-03 TSB for fuel line leak . . . particularly an issue in cold climates.
3) Make sure that TBE has AT LEAST one cat in it . . . two is better. With a single cat, this car probably has to be warm to pass emissions. The stock car comes with THREE, one in the uppipe and two in the downpipe. Since you have a stock turbo the uppipe cat is probably still there but it's primary role is startup emissions. You need one in the downpipe as well.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: NutBucket

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: CorporateRecreation
One big thing to check is the transmission on that car.

Blah blah blah. No. It'll be fine. With the stock turbo and injectors it can't be pushing enough power to wreck a classic 5 speed 'box.

Wreck no but a lot of time the synchros will be shot; mainly 1st gear.

EDIT: My only point with the non-dealer service isn't as easy to verify. I can easily forge a "service history".

Not buying the syncro's thing but lets agree to disagree

I know you can chuck a technician $50 and get stamps. Thats why I suggested reciepts and bills, to back up claims.

 

[JulesMaximus]

I'd get rid of the BOV right away. Those things are useless on the WRX and probably do more harm than good. The stock bypass valve is good to 20psi which is more than you'd be pumping through that stock turbo anyway.

These cars are very reliable if not overly abused. They can take quite a bit but the trannys in the WRX are probably the weakest link. If it shifts smoothly through all the gears chances are it is in pretty good shape.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Even with "just" 285hp, you can dog a tranny if your shifting technique sux. The stock tranny in the WRX is good . . . the STi is better.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: CorporateRecreation
One big thing to check is the transmission on that car.

Blah blah blah. No. It'll be fine. With the stock turbo and injectors it can't be pushing enough power to wreck a classic 5 speed 'box.

Not true. Hard launches at high rpm will yield quick 1/4 mile times but it's extremely hard on the drivetrain. If it shifts smoothly through all the gears cold and warm chances are it's in good shape though and hasn't been abused too badly.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
I'd get rid of the BOV right away. Those things are useless on the WRX and probably do more harm than good. The stock bypass valve is good to 20psi which is more than you'd be pumping through that stock turbo anyway.

These cars are very reliable if not overly abused. They can take quite a bit but the trannys in the WRX are probably the weakest link. If it shifts smoothly through all the gears chances are it is in pretty good shape.

Althought BOVs are retarded, it's highly unlikely its doing anything harmful tot he engine. Depending on the BOV you could just as easily set it to recirculate instead of vent. If it's not a hybrid, I would query the owner about how many of the mods were installed AFTER the car was tuned. If the answer is none, then I wouldn't change any of the intake/exhaust mods.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: CorporateRecreation
One big thing to check is the transmission on that car.

Blah blah blah. No. It'll be fine. With the stock turbo and injectors it can't be pushing enough power to wreck a classic 5 speed 'box.

Not true. Hard launches at high rpm will yield quick 1/4 mile times but it's extremely hard on the drivetrain. If it shifts smoothly through all the gears cold and warm chances are it's in good shape though and hasn't been abused too badly.

Clutch will go before the box at these levels. Your test will prove nothing.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
I'd get rid of the BOV right away. Those things are useless on the WRX and probably do more harm than good. The stock bypass valve is good to 20psi which is more than you'd be pumping through that stock turbo anyway.

These cars are very reliable if not overly abused. They can take quite a bit but the trannys in the WRX are probably the weakest link. If it shifts smoothly through all the gears chances are it is in pretty good shape.

Althought BOVs are retarded, it's highly unlikely its doing anything harmful tot he engine. Depending on the BOV you could just as easily set it to recirculate instead of vent. If it's not a hybrid, I would query the owner about how many of the mods were installed AFTER the car was tuned. If the answer is none, then I wouldn't change any of the intake/exhaust mods.

Worst case scenario is a crappy BOV causing very rough idle.

I swapped mine back to the stock one as constant 'Pehtssssh' every-bloody-time you lifted off the throttle past 3k RPM was annoying in the extreme. Only occasionally was it fun in a hooligan type of way.

 

[SampSon]

I would never buy a modded WRX.

Either way 17K is too much for that car, regardless of its modifications.

 

[kami333]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: CorporateRecreation
One big thing to check is the transmission on that car.

Blah blah blah. No. It'll be fine. With the stock turbo and injectors it can't be pushing enough power to wreck a classic 5 speed 'box.

Not true. Hard launches at high rpm will yield quick 1/4 mile times but it's extremely hard on the drivetrain. If it shifts smoothly through all the gears cold and warm chances are it's in good shape though and hasn't been abused too badly.

Exactly. It was a huge deal back in 02/03, there was talk of a class action suit (either for bad trannies or failure to cover under warranty due to "abuse", I don't remember). Clutch shudder, 1st/2nd gears not holding, etc, pretty much due to driver abuse.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: CorporateRecreation
One big thing to check is the transmission on that car.

Blah blah blah. No. It'll be fine. With the stock turbo and injectors it can't be pushing enough power to wreck a classic 5 speed 'box.

Not true. Hard launches at high rpm will yield quick 1/4 mile times but it's extremely hard on the drivetrain. If it shifts smoothly through all the gears cold and warm chances are it's in good shape though and hasn't been abused too badly.

Clutch will go before the box at these levels. Your test will prove nothing.

Eh, I'm inclined to agree with Jules. While you would certainly prefer the clutch to go before the tranny, that isn't always the case. Depending on what type of bad technique you employ, it's quite possible to kill either the clutch or the tranny.

Regardless, it's difficult to gauge a WRX b/c it comes from the factory with a clunky shifter, relatively light clutch, and noisy 1st gear synchros. Most people in the know quickly replace the stock shifter. Some beef up the clutch but the bias is to leave the clutch alone until you are piling up a lot of power. But again, most "intelligent" people leave the clutch alone unless they upgrade the tranny.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
I'd get rid of the BOV right away. Those things are useless on the WRX and probably do more harm than good. The stock bypass valve is good to 20psi which is more than you'd be pumping through that stock turbo anyway.

These cars are very reliable if not overly abused. They can take quite a bit but the trannys in the WRX are probably the weakest link. If it shifts smoothly through all the gears chances are it is in pretty good shape.

Althought BOVs are retarded, it's highly unlikely its doing anything harmful tot he engine. Depending on the BOV you could just as easily set it to recirculate instead of vent. If it's not a hybrid, I would query the owner about how many of the mods were installed AFTER the car was tuned. If the answer is none, then I wouldn't change any of the intake/exhaust mods.

Worst case scenario is a crappy BOV causing very rough idle.

I swapped mine back to the stock one as constant 'Pehtssssh' every-bloody-time you lifted off the throttle past 3k RPM was annoying in the extreme. Only occasionally was it fun in a hooligan type of way.

True enough. I was assuming the owner had a real Cobb tune AFTER the ALL the mods. I'm sure Cobb's policy is probably to discourage BOVs and aftermarket intakes but they do tune cars with said items.

I bought my WRX instead of an S4 b/c it was ridiculously powerful, cheap, and I was seriously considering flipping it. Unfortunately, the decision was out of my hands when I realized what I had purchased . . . ne'er to be street legal race car. I did have the most popular car in the daycare parking lot. Granted, popularity with 5 year olds probably isn't anything to brag about.

I thought my Blitz BOV was cool for about a week. Then I set it to recirculate b/c it attracts the wrong kind of attention . . . along with the grapefruit shooter I had out back.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
I'd get rid of the BOV right away. Those things are useless on the WRX and probably do more harm than good. The stock bypass valve is good to 20psi which is more than you'd be pumping through that stock turbo anyway.

These cars are very reliable if not overly abused. They can take quite a bit but the trannys in the WRX are probably the weakest link. If it shifts smoothly through all the gears chances are it is in pretty good shape.

Althought BOVs are retarded, it's highly unlikely its doing anything harmful tot he engine. Depending on the BOV you could just as easily set it to recirculate instead of vent. If it's not a hybrid, I would query the owner about how many of the mods were installed AFTER the car was tuned. If the answer is none, then I wouldn't change any of the intake/exhaust mods.

Worst case scenario is a crappy BOV causing very rough idle.

I swapped mine back to the stock one as constant 'Pehtssssh' every-bloody-time you lifted off the throttle past 3k RPM was annoying in the extreme. Only occasionally was it fun in a hooligan type of way.

True enough. I was assuming the owner had a real Cobb tune AFTER the ALL the mods. I'm sure Cobb's policy is probably to discourage BOVs and aftermarket intakes but they do tune cars with said items.

I bought my WRX instead of an S4 b/c it was ridiculously powerful, cheap, and I was seriously considering flipping it. Unfortunately, the decision was out of my hands when I realized what I had purchased . . . ne'er to be street legal race car. I did have the most popular car in the daycare parking lot. Granted, popularity with 5 year olds probably isn't anything to brag about.

I thought my Blitz BOV was cool for about a week. Then I set it to recirculate b/c it attracts the wrong kind of attention . . . along with the grapefruit shooter I had out back.

*Ehem* - Yeah my 'zorst is a little large too, but then on these thing you get the deep, bassy flat four sound as long as you keep the unequal length headers. They're nothing like the buzz-box sound of a riced civic or the Evo (not that the Evo is bad or anything, I like them to a degree).

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: CorporateRecreation
One big thing to check is the transmission on that car.

Blah blah blah. No. It'll be fine. With the stock turbo and injectors it can't be pushing enough power to wreck a classic 5 speed 'box.

Not true. Hard launches at high rpm will yield quick 1/4 mile times but it's extremely hard on the drivetrain. If it shifts smoothly through all the gears cold and warm chances are it's in good shape though and hasn't been abused too badly.

Clutch will go before the box at these levels. Your test will prove nothing.

The hell it won't. If the transmission doesn't shift smoothly then I'd avoid the car like the plague. End of story. Granted the stock transmission/shift linkage doesn't shift like an Acura gearbox you shouldn't have to force it to get it into any of the gears.

I'd still have it looked at by a competent mechanic though.

Edit-I think that price is too high though. I'd try to get it for about $15k. $16k max.

 

[serialkiller]

Thanks for all the good info guys!

Jorge

 

[Pepsi90919]

ugh, aftermarket crap

 

[Reckoner]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Metron
In terms of warranties, I would check with Subaru, your insurance company and others with regard to an extended warranty. Sounds like the factory Subaru warranty has been voided by the mods, but a third party warranty (like from your insurance company) would probably cover you... talk to your agent.

Mods don't void a warranty, but warranty service can be refused if the mods CAUSED the problem. How long is the factory warranty on that car anyway?

That's what they say, but Subaru (and most other car companies) denies them anyways.

 

[NutBucket]

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: NutBucket

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: CorporateRecreation
One big thing to check is the transmission on that car.

Blah blah blah. No. It'll be fine. With the stock turbo and injectors it can't be pushing enough power to wreck a classic 5 speed 'box.

Wreck no but a lot of time the synchros will be shot; mainly 1st gear.

EDIT: My only point with the non-dealer service isn't as easy to verify. I can easily forge a "service history".

Not buying the syncro's thing but lets agree to disagree

I know you can chuck a technician $50 and get stamps. Thats why I suggested reciepts and bills, to back up claims.

What if I buy my supplies in bulk? I know I'm being a dick...just pointing out some possibilities.

In my case, I received a case of oil filters today and have 4 cases of Mobile1 in the garage. I won't have to buy supplies for quite a while

 

[Pepsi90919]

Originally posted by: NutBucket

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: NutBucket

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: CorporateRecreation
One big thing to check is the transmission on that car.

Blah blah blah. No. It'll be fine. With the stock turbo and injectors it can't be pushing enough power to wreck a classic 5 speed 'box.

Wreck no but a lot of time the synchros will be shot; mainly 1st gear.

EDIT: My only point with the non-dealer service isn't as easy to verify. I can easily forge a "service history".

Not buying the syncro's thing but lets agree to disagree

I know you can chuck a technician $50 and get stamps. Thats why I suggested reciepts and bills, to back up claims.

What if I buy my supplies in bulk? I know I'm being a dick...just pointing out some possibilities.

In my case, I received a case of oil filters today and have 4 cases of Mobile1 in the garage. I won't have to buy supplies for quite a while

i think you mean Mobil.

 

[serialkiller]

JulesMaximus recommends to get the car at 15k no more then 16k. Does anybody else have a input on how much this car is worth?

edit: no low ball prices, i need legitimate prices.

 

[Vic]

$17k is way too much. $15k would be a better price, given the mileage and that you are already looking for mods.

A few notes:
- The wheels are Rota SDR's in steel gray. These are cheap but good quality cast knockoffs of Prodrive PFF7's. They will fit over the STi Brembo brakes.
- The ram air intake to the air filter box is missing.
- Get rid of the atmospheric BOV. Those trick the stock MAF into running overly rich and reduce performance.
- The turbo timer is unnecessary. The stock WRX TD04 turbo is watercooled and does not have to be turbo timed.
- That is not the stock battery (you probably knew that).
- That is the oversized aftermarket STi hood scoop (does the seller still have the original?).
- What downpipe is on it and does it still have a cat?
- Was the car professionally tuned after modding? Did he ever run a manual boost controller without tuning (very bad)?
- The 5MT in the MY02 can be destroyed even without any power mods, it all depends on the driver. Clutch dumps and hamfist shifts are the killers.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

It depends.

If you want to KEEP the car then it's a question of how much is it worth to YOU. You can certainly find cheaper stock WRXes but it's highly unlikely you will find a lot of low mileage (for the model year), reasonably modified, and unabused WRXes for 15 or even 16k.

Simply put, if you were likely to do some (if not all) of the real performance mods then 16k is a good deal . . . assuming all the mods were properly installed, the car has been properly tuned, it will pass emissions "as is", and it hasn't been abused. If the seller can certify all of the above is true (even better . . . toss in the stock parts as well), then 16k ain't that bad. I assume you've already CarFax'd this thing?

If not, then I say you take the 16k baseline and then deduct "retail" for everything you would have to fix . . . hypothetically:
1) TBE with real cats . . . not all high flow cats will pass emissions
2) fix all TSBs . . . might be covered under warranty . . . maybe not . . . loose driver seat, fuel line issue, brake ECU, etc.
3) What's the deal with the aftermarket battery . . . not a good sign.
4) Tire wear due to lowering . . . unlikely b/c the drop isn't very impressive but you don't know until it's actually checked for alignment at a reputable place
5) Definitely a compression test and arguably knock assessment as well

The owner is in TX so I assume s/he has access to 93. I would be a "tiny" bit worried if the owner has been putting lower octane 89 (or even 91) in the WRX. Basically, a sign of cutting corners. Then again, over at NASIOC there's one guy that brags about putting E85 in his WRX.

 

[serialkiller]

Originally posted by: Vic
$17k is way too much. $15k would be a better price, given the mileage and that you are already looking for mods.

A few notes:
- The wheels are Rota SDR's in steel gray. These are cheap but good quality cast knockoffs of Prodrive PFF7's. They will fit over the STi Brembo brakes.
- The ram air intake to the air filter box is missing.
- Get rid of the atmospheric BOV. Those trick the stock MAF into running overly rich and reduce performance.
- The turbo timer is unnecessary. The stock WRX TD04 turbo is watercooled and does not have to be turbo timed.
- That is not the stock battery (you probably knew that).
- That is the oversized aftermarket STi hood scoop (does the seller still have the original?).
- What downpipe is on it and does it still have a cat?
- Was the car professionally tuned after modding? Did he ever run a manual boost controller without tuning (very bad)?
- The 5MT in the MY02 can be destroyed even without any power mods, it all depends on the driver. Clutch dumps and hamfist shifts are the killers.

Not sure if he has the stock hood scoop, from what he told me though all tuning has been done after everything was installed. No manual boost control.

 

[serialkiller]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
It depends.

If you want to KEEP the car then it's a question of how much is it worth to YOU. You can certainly find cheaper stock WRXes but it's highly unlikely you will find a lot of low mileage (for the model year), reasonably modified, and unabused WRXes for 15 or even 16k.

Simply put, if you were likely to do some (if not all) of the real performance mods then 16k is a good deal . . . assuming all the mods were properly installed, the car has been properly tuned, it will pass emissions "as is", and it hasn't been abused. If the seller can certify all of the above is true (even better . . . toss in the stock parts as well), then 16k ain't that bad. I assume you've already CarFax'd this thing?

If not, then I say you take the 16k baseline and then deduct "retail" for everything you would have to fix . . . hypothetically:
1) TBE with real cats . . . not all high flow cats will pass emissions
2) fix all TSBs . . . might be covered under warranty . . . maybe not . . . loose driver seat, fuel line issue, brake ECU, etc.
3) What's the deal with the aftermarket battery . . . not a good sign.
4) Tire wear due to lowering . . . unlikely b/c the drop isn't very impressive but you don't know until it's actually checked for alignment at a reputable place
5) Definitely a compression test and arguably knock assessment as well

The owner is in TX so I assume s/he has access to 93. I would be a "tiny" bit worried if the owner has been putting lower octane 89 (or even 91) in the WRX. Basically, a sign of cutting corners. Then again, over at NASIOC there's one guy that brags about putting E85 in his WRX.

Well the car is set at $17k and the seller is pretty firm on the price. I have not carfaxed yet since I wasn't in the final stages of purchasing the vehicle. The mods are nice in all, but not if the 60k powertrain warranty will be voided. I am not sure if the car can pass emission either (forgot to ask). One more thing that brings up a whole different issue, little to no maintenance record because seller does everything himself. We did agree to a used car inspection, but so far it looks like a no go since the price he's asking for is pretty high.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Well, if you are in no hurry and don't want to pay $17k (to which I agree). I say tell the guy to keep in touch if he changes his mind.

It's a buyer's market for WRXes (and Saab9-2X).

If you are serious about buying a car in the next month, you can get 30 days of access to CarFax for like $15 . . . or maybe it's 10-reports. Either way, that's money well-spent.

For the record, mods (in and of themselves) do not void the warranty unless they CAUSE (or contribute) to a problem. If this car is throwing a bunch of CELs, yeah . . . that's probably the mods. If the 1st gear synchro goes out, that's probably your shifting, although the extra horses made matters worse.

I could live without the maintenance records since the guy is a DIYer. But if that means the car has NEVER been properly tuned after all those mods, I would be a little wary. Road tunes aren't terrible, but real dyno time is the way to do it right.

Visit places like NASIOC. Get to know the guys (and gals . . . SubieGirl) and more about the WRX. It's a great car that is a great value if you want go-fast AWD for less than a mint.

2002 WRX highly modded but ALL dealer installed and maintained
For less than $17k on a car with less than 24k miles . . . plus the benefit of eBay buyer protection.

Within a year the prices for 04STi are likely to fall below 20k. Obviously, that means 300hp straight from the factory with a 6spd tranny capable of handling much more.


If you were TRULY a gambling man and wanted more of a luxury ride, there are a bunch of '02 Audi A6s with 2.7L twin-turbo engines out there. But that's a case where even an unabused car is quite scary when the warranty runs out.