Question for religious people - OP Updated with summary

[Shadowmage]

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee

Originally posted by: DAGTA

When you start to believe in eternal life and take on that point of view, your point of view of everything in this life shifts. Also, when you have a relationship with God, you will feel a desire to help other people because that is in accordance with God's will. Man cannot save himself with good deeds because none of us are perfect. However, good deeds seem to naturally follow a relationship with God.

I dunno why, but after reading the entire thread this still sticks out as being the most relevant point. I'm not a christian, anyone who bothers to read religion threads would know that, but lets say the above post is absolute truth.

God says "I'll give you ~80 years, and then I'll give you forever". "Where you spend it is up to you". "You could spend it with me, which is more wonderful than the wonderfullest thing you can ever imagine, or you can spend it without me, which is worse than you think since you're kinda-sorta with me now."

That ~80 years and ANYTHING you do in it suddenly becomes so trivial, so inconsequential compared to the eternity beyond, that you really could consider readjusting your priorities in this life. All this squabbling over economics, politics, etc. amounts to ZILCH. Your great paying job, your speedboat, your eleven story mansion of gold...dust in the wind. This life DOES NOT MATTER because you're not even really living yet. I'm sure that after 100,000 years of chillin' with god all this nonsense will be a dim memory (if memories get dim in heaven).

So eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow you might find out which eternity you get.

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P.S. I don't believe anything I just said I was just strongly moved by DAGTA's post.

But if you bet incorrectly and it turns out that the judeo-christian god does not exist, then you're screwed (wasted your life).

 

[mattpegher]

The most unfortunate facet of religious belief is the failure to realize that all of the worlds religions at there core believe the same thing. There exists some noncorporial force that we are connected to and to which we join after death. That our behavior in this life affects us after we die. Whether you believe that you go to heaven and sit with god or join the univeral consciousness, our realization of any evil that you have perpetrated will become profoundly appearent. Even the Catholic church admits that confession of ones sins is only valid if you are truely sorrowfull. I'm still not convinced that after we die, we will not still suffer for our earlthy evil.

Belief and worship are not the only criteria for everlasting bliss. And evil perpetrated in the name of god is the worst atrocity.

I do agree that most of our earthly endevours will have little consequence in the beyond, but our evils will haunt us for ever.

To this day, I remember teasing an overwieght boy while I was in grade school. The boys parents informed my parents of the emotional stress that I had wrought upon the boy. My parents explained to me how I had made the boy feel. I don't recall any punishment yet the realization of how I had hurt this person sticks with me until today some 30 years latter. I felt sickened that I had hurt him. Imagine this feeling thousands of times more intense as your soul becomes aware of the pain and suffering that the deeds of your life have caused. No amount of church going or other religious activity will make up for these evils.

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: ruffilb
In your religion, do deeds speak as louder as belief? Would an atheist who helped the poor be rewarded after death just as much as an average Joe who went to church/temple/mosque every week? I?m not really that religious, but it seems to me as if belief should count for something, but the all-knowing, all-powerful God that most monotheistic religions share would recognize someone?s good deeds regardless of faith? or is this simply not true? Specifically in the case of Christianity?s compassionate God, how would Gandhi fare as opposed to, say, Ann Coulter? What about, in Islam, Ghandi and Osama?

Basically, if I go out and help the homeless instead of going to church, am I eternally doomed?

Please reply below with your religion/specific denomination and answer.

Edit1:
Christians have replied with the following consensus:
As long as you believe in Jesus as your personal savior, you are going to heaven. If you don't believe, you are going to hell, regardless of any good works you've done in your life.

Edit2:
While the majority of Christians agree with the consensus of the first edit, Vic presents an interesting point of view:

That consensus is incorrect. I'm not surprised, as most Christians are poorly educated with regards to their own faith.

(1) you must abide by the Golden Rule and "love your neighbor as yourself" for "for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." (Matthew 7:12, Matthew 22:40, and others).

(2) and that "all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them" except "whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven" (Mark 3:28-29) and "everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven" (Luke 12-10).

The so-called Faith/Good works arguments is quite likely the most misunderstood of all in Christianity. Faith is good works and good works are faith. In other words, you don't believe in the talk [Compassion for humanity, not necessarily the bible by rote] if you don't walk the walk [doing good deeds]. If you walk the walk, then you already believe in the talk. Make sense? And before anyone here goes to the tired argument of Ephesians 2:8-9, they should do themselves a favor and read verse 10 first.

I'll present an answer to both questions and see what you think.

Question 1. Faith verses wokrs. Which is necessary for salvation? Answer is both. Why? Very simple. What is required for salvation is the grace of Christ. To whom is this grace given? To those who have faith in Christ. How do you develop faith in Christ? By obeying his word, or in other words, through your works. Therefore, salvation requires faith and faith requires works. Does this mean that you can earn your way into heaven. No, because salvation is given through grace, and the Lord will provide it to whomever he will, regardless of the works they have done, simply because more than just works are required. So you really can't separate the necessity of the two.

Question 2. Will people then be rewarded for their works even if they don't believe in God? Absolutely. Ask you're typical Christian this question and see if they don't agree. Do all good deeds and feelings come from God and all bad feelings and acts from the devil? Most all will agree. So if someone doesn't believe in God, but does something good, is he not acting under the influence of God whether he claims a belief in him or not?

The problem that most people have is a misconception of what heaven and hell are. They believe that there is some mystical line between the two created by some predetermined amount of sin. My question with that would be where is the line, and what amount and types of sin create it? And if all people who died without believing in God are condemned to Hell, what happens to though who never heard of God and Christ? The answers are very simple and easily understood, but it takes a better understanding of what heaven and hell really are.

Just for reference though, I'm Mormon, which isn't always considered Christian, so you might not want to aline my ideals with "Christian" ideals.

 

[mattpegher]

God has manifest himself on earth so many times, Christ, Mohammed, Budha, and still we can't get it right. Boy he must be one frustrated diety.

 

[Trevelyan]

Just remember that to understand Christianity you have to understand history:

OLD TESTAMENT:

1) Creation.
God made the world perfect, without fault. It was beautiful, perfect, without death or sin of any kind. God also made humans. We have free will, so we can choose to either love or reject God.

2) Fall.
We (starting with Adam) chose to reject God. Every one of us has rejected God and gone our own way. We all sin. Period. God told us in the beginning that the "wages of sin is death." In Genesis, he told us that if we disobeyed him, we "shall surely die." So at this point, we are all on the road to death, both physically and spiritually (ie Hell).

3) Flood.
The world quickly decays into violence. (The second generation of humans saw the first murder with Cain.) So, God judges the world with a global flood, killing everyone except Noah and his family.

4) Confusion.
God tells the first humans after Noah to "fill the earth," but we do not. Instead, we build a monument to the greatness of man, the Tower of Babel. God curses us, and gives everyone different languages, so we cannot understand each other. We are forced to spread out and settle with those we can understand.

5) Covenant.
Many nations develop, and most are corrupt and evil. Wars are common. God calls Abraham out of Canaan, and uses him to form the nation of Israel, and promises to bless the entire world through his descendents. God sets aside Israel as his nation, and promises to redeem the entire world through it.

Through prophets, God reveals his plan to the Israelites in many books in the Old Testament. The soon-coming Messiah will be a "king", and save his people. He will be nailed to a tree, and pay the price for mankind.



---- 300 years of silence (no Israelite prophets) ----



NEW TESTAMENT:

1) Prophecy fulfilled.
John the Baptist is born, with many miracles. As told in books of the Old Testament, he begins calling people to repent, telling of a "man to come whose sandals I am not fit to untie."

Jesus Christ is born, also miraculously. In the last few years of his life he begins to preach, attracting enormous popularity and enraging Jewish authorities. He speaks "as one with real authority" and travels many places, forgiving sins and performing miracles as a testimony to who he is.

2) Cross.
Jesus Christ is killed on the cross. The ultimated sacrifice. Deicide: the ultimate sin committed by man. The murder of the perfect God. And yet, in the midst of our most terrible evil, God so powerfully demonstrates his awesome and unyielding love, by forgiving us and offering to pay the debt that we could not pay.

Paul sums it up perfectly: "While we were still sinning, Christ gave his life for us."

3) Resurrection.
On the third day, Jesus rises from the dead. For 40 days he appears to over 500 people, igniting a phenominal spread of Christianity. Peter and Paul (and others) spread the Good News -- that we are forgiven by God -- to many locations.

4) Today.
Before Jesus died, he told us to take the gospel to the end of the world, sharing this good news with everyone. The Bible say that "God is patient and longsuffering, wanting no one to perish, but all to come to him."

5) Future.
As a final promise, Jesus told us that he would come again to save those who know him, and to judge the world with fire, not with water.

One of his promises speaks strongly to our time. I personally believe we are seeing this prophecy unfolding every day before our eyes:

Matthew 24:9-14
"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

Sorry for the length... hope you have time to read it.

 

[Trevelyan]

To answer your question briefly... remember that the plan of salvation is clear. It is made for everyone, not just the intellectual. Christ's sacrifice is the reason we can be forgiven, the reason we can go to heaven. We have to understand what Jesus had done for us, and "believe in your heart" and repent. To repent literally means "to turn away from"...

Simply, we need to reject the way of life we had, and embrace the forgiveness of Jesus.

The faith in Jesus that he has forgiven us will always manifest itself in good works. But remember, only God knows what everyone goes through and deals with. Only God knows what is done in secret, so we can't judge people so quickly.

 

[HomeAppraiser]

Is this still going? OK here is my take:

The "good works alone" won't get you in to heaven language is aimed at the robber barons who think they can screw over the common man all their life and then on their death bead "buy" their way into heaven with a large charitable gift.

The good works or gift is tainted in the eyes of God because there is no sincerity or faith behind it.

 

[LittleNemoNES]

I think the whole purpose of Jesus dying to is to make up for humanity's sinfulness. God says that if you realize that you have done bad, if you are willing to admit to it and ask him for help, then as a family member you are welcome to your now heavenly home. Kinda simple, really. Churchianity and Christianity are 2 different things.

 

[DaShen]

Originally posted by: ruffilb

Originally posted by: DaShen
Christian, and absolute belief in Jesus Christ as Your Personal Lord and Savior is. It is very clear in the Bible. Everything else is secondary.
Why ask this, when the answer is very clear in the Bible for Christians.

Because I'm not religious... I don't read the Bible any more than you read Taoist texts. (Sorry if you read Taoist texts, but you know what I mean)

Isn't Jesus/God supposed to be compassionate, though? Would he really be OK with damning someone to hell eternally even though the person in question was a very good person who did great things for humanity?

I have read Taoist texts. 😉 I read all philosophy.

Grace abuse sucks, but if you realize that NO ONE. And I mean absolutely no one DESERVES heaven (i.e. no one is perfect and heaven demands perfection), then a free gift becomes more clear.