Question for religious people - OP Updated with summary

[mooncancook]

Originally posted by: LoKe

Originally posted by: mooncancook

Originally posted by: LoKe
Didn't read the thread, but that sounds like bullsh!t to me. If you die when you don't beleive in Jesus or God, you should still technically be sent to the purogatory, if it exists. The only reason anyone would go to hell is if they're truly "evil" like murderers and whatnot. I couldn't imagine He would cast someone aside for not believing in Him. However, I don't believe in God, nor do I believe in the Devil so hey, no biggie!

Can you quote something from the Bible about this purogatory? Can you say you can be righteous before God? that means if God ask you the question "have you commited any sin?" and your answer has to be a definate "No". there is no "Yes but".

It seems you're right. There's no mention of the purgatory in the bible.

Does that mean if someone does sin, but believes in God, they're still screwed? Or does their faith somehow over-ride that? 😕

In the OT days the believers has to sacrifice a "flawless" lamb and repent their sin so they can be forgiven. when Jesus came, he led a sinless life in human form, so he qualified as the ultimate sacrifice to cover all believers' sin. that's how the faith help "over-ride" our sins, as Jesus' blood wash away our sins. that's why it's said that Salvation is a free gift, it's up to the person to accept it or not.

 

[mooncancook]

Originally posted by: iamaelephant

Originally posted by: mooncancook

Originally posted by: iamaelephant

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Good works should flow from true belief.

ZV

You mean good works like protesting a fallen soldier's funeral? Or more like the good works of the catholic church sending Galileo into exile for decades? Or good works like raping choir boys?

Generalization is a dead end to any discussion. But seriously I believe the rapist from the catholic church has fallen to Satan and they will be punished, but I'm not here to judge coz only God can see one's heart and judge. I mean if someone claim he's a believer then I can only take his word for it, but only God knows from his heart if he really is a believer.

I didn't generalise anything, these are just a small selection of the good deeds done by people in the name of God. In fact, these are some of the most righteous people out there. Priests, the Pope and some crazy lady with a lot more conviction in her belief than you will ever have.

They committed a crime and they have to pay for the consequence on this earth. Again only God can see through their heart and make the right judgment. They might still be saved or they are forever damned and heading for Hell, but only God knows. But from what I learned from Revelation, the Catholic Church belong to one of the seven churches that has a problem, which one I don't remember exactly. Of course the Catholics will probably disagree with me.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: DAGTA

Originally posted by: waggy
say a person that is born to strict atheist. This child lives a good clean life. helps many many poeple with chertiable works and just beigna good guy. lives by the golden rule etc. A perosn that defines how a person should live (well except for the church and jesus part) he should go to hell? and a person who has spent all there life in "service" to god who has raped and mollested children gets into heaven?
see i don't buy that. To me thats just the church takeing more power.

1st, the church has nothing to do with how God set up his creation.

2nd, people keep viewing Heaven as reward and Hell as punishment. That is why so many people fail to see what Christianity claims, they start with a false premise. Heaven is being with God. Hell is being apart from God. If you don't know God, you won't be with him. No one can earn their way into Heaven. It is not possible to get there without help from God.

right punishment is the absance of god. I find it hard to beleive that God would send those that live the life how he wanted (well close) to punishment. I would think that God would want such beings in his company. even fi they did not acknowledge him in "life"

there are way to many people in history that have lived without Jesus's word. I find it hard to believe God would condanm milliosn of people becasue they were born in a area that was not discoverd a few thousand years after his sons passing.

by the same token "priest" (they may work for the church. but they are not priest. just bastardized view of it) that works for the church and claims to be a man of god that raps and mollest children should not be in the grace of God just because he accepts Jesus.

To me the real way to accept God and live your life how he/she/food item wants. To me the idea that you have to a accept jesus/god in your life or risk damnation in hell was just a way for the church to gain more power over its people.

I have more respect for the guy that lives his life fallowing the works then the old "preist" that has mollested children, or the guy that accepts Jesus/God before he gets a needle in his arm.

honestly if that is the case then that is not my heaven.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: ruffilb
In your religion, do deeds speak as louder as belief? Would an atheist who helped the poor be rewarded after death just as much as an average Joe who went to church/temple/mosque every week? I?m not really that religious, but it seems to me as if belief should count for something, but the all-knowing, all-powerful God that most monotheistic religions share would recognize someone?s good deeds regardless of faith? or is this simply not true? Specifically in the case of Christianity?s compassionate God, how would Gandhi fare as opposed to, say, Ann Coulter? What about, in Islam, Ghandi and Osama?

Basically, if I go out and help the homeless instead of going to church, am I eternally doomed?

Please reply below with your religion/specific denomination and answer.

Edit1:
Christians have replied with the following consensus:
As long as you believe in Jesus as your personal savior, you are going to heaven. If you don't believe, you are going to hell, regardless of any good works you've done in your life.

That consensus is incorrect. I'm not surprised, as most Christians are poor educated with regards to their own faith.

What the Bible is "very clear" about is that:
(1) you must abide by the Golden Rule and "love your neighbor as yourself" for "for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." (Matthew 7:12, Matthew 22:40, and others).
(2) and that "all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them" except "whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven" (Mark 3:28-29) and "everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven" (Luke 12-10).

In addition to living an amazingly righteous life, Gandhi was a monotheist and believed in God, so even by the strictest Christian standards, he would have been saved. Coulter attacks the humanity of other peoples, which is a direct blasphemy of the Holy Spirit that created all humanity, and as such would not be saved (although that is admittedly not for anyone but God to decide). Osama bin Laden has murdered thousands for personal glory, not the glory of God no matter how much he might claim otherwise, and therefore is not saved.

The so-called Faith/Good works arguments is quite likely the most misunderstood of all in Christianity. Faith is good works and good works are faith. In other words, you don't believe in the talk if you don't walk the walk. If you walk the walk, then you already believe in the talk. Make sense? And before anyone here goes to the tired argument of Ephesians 2:8-9, they should do themselves a favor and read verse 10 first.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: DAGTA

Originally posted by: waggy
say a person that is born to strict atheist. This child lives a good clean life. helps many many poeple with chertiable works and just beigna good guy. lives by the golden rule etc. A perosn that defines how a person should live (well except for the church and jesus part) he should go to hell? and a person who has spent all there life in "service" to god who has raped and mollested children gets into heaven?
see i don't buy that. To me thats just the church takeing more power.

1st, the church has nothing to do with how God set up his creation.

2nd, people keep viewing Heaven as reward and Hell as punishment. That is why so many people fail to see what Christianity claims, they start with a false premise. Heaven is being with God. Hell is being apart from God. If you don't know God, you won't be with him. No one can earn their way into Heaven. It is not possible to get there without help from God.

EXACTLY what I was referring to in my previous post. YOU, a human being, are declaring the judgement from God, instead of letting God decide this gift for himself. That is in direct contradiction to the actual meaning of Ephesians 2:8-10, which you most likely think is the passage that justifies your statement. It's ridiculous.

 

[iamaelephant]

Originally posted by: Vic
The so-called Faith/Good works arguments is quite likely the most misunderstood of all in Christianity. Faith is good works and good works are faith. In other words, you don't believe in the talk if you don't walk the walk. If you walk the walk, then you already believe in the talk. Make sense? And before anyone here goes to the tired argument of Ephesians 2:8-9, they should do themselves a favor and read verse 10 first.

Bullsh!t. There are plenty of good people who don't believe in God or Jesus. It's typical of Christians to turn a blind eye to the atrocities commited in the name of their God and the next minute to claim that all goodness follows from their teachings.

As hard as it may be for you ignorant christians to believe, it's entirely possible to be a good, moral, loving person without believing in fairy tales.

 

[DAGTA]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: DAGTA

Originally posted by: waggy
say a person that is born to strict atheist. This child lives a good clean life. helps many many poeple with chertiable works and just beigna good guy. lives by the golden rule etc. A perosn that defines how a person should live (well except for the church and jesus part) he should go to hell? and a person who has spent all there life in "service" to god who has raped and mollested children gets into heaven?
see i don't buy that. To me thats just the church takeing more power.

1st, the church has nothing to do with how God set up his creation.

2nd, people keep viewing Heaven as reward and Hell as punishment. That is why so many people fail to see what Christianity claims, they start with a false premise. Heaven is being with God. Hell is being apart from God. If you don't know God, you won't be with him. No one can earn their way into Heaven. It is not possible to get there without help from God.

EXACTLY what I was referring to in my previous post. YOU, a human being, are declaring the judgement from God, instead of letting God decide this gift for himself. That is in direct contradiction to the actual meaning of Ephesians 2:8-10, which you most likely think is the passage that justifies your statement. It's ridiculous.

I'm writing my understanding as best I know it from reading the New Testament. Nowhere in this thread have I claimed a perfect understanding, Vic. I've stated "I don't know" several times. I don't agree with everything you say but I'm also reminded that Jesus said, "those that are not against me are for me." It seems to me that you are not against Jesus so I have no reason to argue with you posting your understanding.

 

[DAGTA]

Originally posted by: iamaelephant

As hard as it may be for you ignorant christians to believe, it's entirely possible to be a good, moral, loving person without believing in fairy tales.

That isn't hard for me to believe. I tried to be a 'good' person, moral, and help others back when I didn't believe in God. Many of my non-believing friends try to live such a life. Not believing in God does not automatically make a person evil. Everyone has a choice.

Also, 'good' is a relative term. What is good from a human point of view may not be good in God's eyes.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: iamaelephant

Originally posted by: Vic
The so-called Faith/Good works arguments is quite likely the most misunderstood of all in Christianity. Faith is good works and good works are faith. In other words, you don't believe in the talk if you don't walk the walk. If you walk the walk, then you already believe in the talk. Make sense? And before anyone here goes to the tired argument of Ephesians 2:8-9, they should do themselves a favor and read verse 10 first.

Bullsh!t. There are plenty of good people who don't believe in God or Jesus. It's typical of Christians to turn a blind eye to the atrocities commited in the name of their God and the next minute to claim that all goodness follows from their teachings.

As hard as it may be for you ignorant christians to believe, it's entirely possible to be a good, moral, loving person without believing in fairy tales.

The "talk" I was referring to was the love of humankind, exactly as I posted above and which you editted out. That is the true message of Christ ("for this sums up the Law and the Prophets," in his own words). So if you have that love, then you believe, even if you don't call it God or Christ, and if you don't, then you don't, no matter how much you claim to believe in God and Christ.
Judging by your little outburst of hate and venom, I'd say you don't in either category, so it's not surprising at all to me that you couldn't get my point.

Now hush up, the adults are trying to talk.


edit: BTW, I do not consider myself to be a Christian. Simply because I have educated myself on a subject does not automatically make me a believer in that subject. I am an admirer of the teachings of Jesus but I do not believe he is or was God.

 

[mooncancook]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: ruffilb
In your religion, do deeds speak as louder as belief? Would an atheist who helped the poor be rewarded after death just as much as an average Joe who went to church/temple/mosque every week? I?m not really that religious, but it seems to me as if belief should count for something, but the all-knowing, all-powerful God that most monotheistic religions share would recognize someone?s good deeds regardless of faith? or is this simply not true? Specifically in the case of Christianity?s compassionate God, how would Gandhi fare as opposed to, say, Ann Coulter? What about, in Islam, Ghandi and Osama?

Basically, if I go out and help the homeless instead of going to church, am I eternally doomed?

Please reply below with your religion/specific denomination and answer.

Edit1:
Christians have replied with the following consensus:
As long as you believe in Jesus as your personal savior, you are going to heaven. If you don't believe, you are going to hell, regardless of any good works you've done in your life.

That consensus is incorrect. I'm not surprised, as most Christians are poor educated with regards to their own faith.

What the Bible is "very clear" about is that:
(1) you must abide by the Golden Rule and "love your neighbor as yourself" for "for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." (Matthew 7:12, Matthew 22:40, and others).
(2) and that "all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them" except "whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven" (Mark 3:28-29) and "everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven" (Luke 12-10).

In addition to living an amazingly righteous life, Gandhi was a monotheist and believed in God, so even by the strictest Christian standards, he would have been saved. Coulter attacks the humanity of other peoples, which is a direct blasphemy of the Holy Spirit that created all humanity, and as such would not be saved (although that is admittedly not for anyone but God to decide). Osama bin Laden has murdered thousands for personal glory, not the glory of God no matter how much he might claim otherwise, and therefore is not saved.

The so-called Faith/Good works arguments is quite likely the most misunderstood of all in Christianity. Faith is good works and good works are faith. In other words, you don't believe in the talk if you don't walk the walk. If you walk the walk, then you already believe in the talk. Make sense? And before anyone here goes to the tired argument of Ephesians 2:8-9, they should do themselves a favor and read verse 10 first.

Yes I remember the part about the only unforgiven sin is "blasphemes against the Holy Spirit" in Bible studies. But trying to judge whether Gandhi or anyone else will go to heaven or not is going overboard.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: DAGTA

Originally posted by: waggy
say a person that is born to strict atheist. This child lives a good clean life. helps many many poeple with chertiable works and just beigna good guy. lives by the golden rule etc. A perosn that defines how a person should live (well except for the church and jesus part) he should go to hell? and a person who has spent all there life in "service" to god who has raped and mollested children gets into heaven?
see i don't buy that. To me thats just the church takeing more power.

1st, the church has nothing to do with how God set up his creation.

2nd, people keep viewing Heaven as reward and Hell as punishment. That is why so many people fail to see what Christianity claims, they start with a false premise. Heaven is being with God. Hell is being apart from God. If you don't know God, you won't be with him. No one can earn their way into Heaven. It is not possible to get there without help from God.

right punishment is the absance of god. I find it hard to beleive that God would send those that live the life how he wanted (well close) to punishment. I would think that God would want such beings in his company. even fi they did not acknowledge him in "life"

there are way to many people in history that have lived without Jesus's word. I find it hard to believe God would condanm milliosn of people becasue they were born in a area that was not discoverd a few thousand years after his sons passing.

by the same token "priest" (they may work for the church. but they are not priest. just bastardized view of it) that works for the church and claims to be a man of god that raps and mollest children should not be in the grace of God just because he accepts Jesus.

To me the real way to accept God and live your life how he/she/food item wants. To me the idea that you have to a accept jesus/god in your life or risk damnation in hell was just a way for the church to gain more power over its people.

I have more respect for the guy that lives his life fallowing the works then the old "preist" that has mollested children, or the guy that accepts Jesus/God before he gets a needle in his arm.

honestly if that is the case then that is not my heaven.

1st, the church has nothing to do with how God set up his creation.


just wanted to think on this a while longer.

i fully agree. wich is part of the problem i have with the idea htat you have to have Jesus/God in your life to get into "heaven"

I do not feel a person has to go to church and fallow every little thing the bible says. heck the bible is filled with contradictions and such. BUT the bible list is a blueprint on how you should live your life.

I used to go to church every Sunday and Wensday. I have tried my best to live my life how Jesus/God have asked. I thank Jesus/God daily for the blessings i have in my life and ask for strenght for the the things i need to overcome.

BUT i have lost faith in the church itself(NOT Jesus/God mind you).

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: mooncancook
Yes I remember the part about the only unforiven sin is "blasphemes against the Holy Spirit" in Bible studies. But trying to judge whether Gandhi or anyone else will go to heaven or not is going overboard.

I agree. I was simply humoring the OP in trying to answer his somewhat ridiculous premise. I think it's also important to not that, according to Jesus, the Kingdom of Heaven is not a place or a time but a state of mind (Luke 17:20).

 

[iamaelephant]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: iamaelephant

Originally posted by: Vic
The so-called Faith/Good works arguments is quite likely the most misunderstood of all in Christianity. Faith is good works and good works are faith. In other words, you don't believe in the talk if you don't walk the walk. If you walk the walk, then you already believe in the talk. Make sense? And before anyone here goes to the tired argument of Ephesians 2:8-9, they should do themselves a favor and read verse 10 first.

Bullsh!t. There are plenty of good people who don't believe in God or Jesus. It's typical of Christians to turn a blind eye to the atrocities commited in the name of their God and the next minute to claim that all goodness follows from their teachings.

As hard as it may be for you ignorant christians to believe, it's entirely possible to be a good, moral, loving person without believing in fairy tales.

The "talk" I was referring to was the love of humankind, exactly as I posted above and which you editted out. That is the true message of Christ ("for this sums up the Law and the Prophets," in his own words). So if you have that love, then you believe, even if you don't call it God or Christ, and if you don't, then you don't, no matter how much you claim to believe in God and Christ.
Judging by your little outburst of hate and venom, I'd say you don't in either category, so it's not surprising at all to me that you couldn't get my point.

Now hush up, the adults are trying to talk.


edit: BTW, I do not consider myself to be a Christian. Simply because I have educated myself on a subject does not automatically make me a believer in that subject. I am an admirer of the teachings of Jesus but I do not believe he is or was God.

Hate and venom? No sir, I'm afraid you have me all wrong. I don't hate anyone, but I resent the Christian church for their evil and the atrocities throughout history, and I condemn their own hatred of science. I consider myself a good person. I treat others well, I have never stolen, I work hard and I donate to charities.

And are you trying to tell me that a priest, who has given his entire life to the church, doesn't truely believe in God because he like to fiddle with little boys? Or that woman who protests the graves of dead soldiers isn't a true believer? It seems to me that these people have far more faith in their beliefs than the average christian. Their faith in Christ with absolute conviction grants them a ticket into heaven while a good person such as myself will be damned because I refuse to believe in something without concrete evidence (seemingly a more logical point of view).

 

[mooncancook]

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: DAGTA

Originally posted by: waggy
say a person that is born to strict atheist. This child lives a good clean life. helps many many poeple with chertiable works and just beigna good guy. lives by the golden rule etc. A perosn that defines how a person should live (well except for the church and jesus part) he should go to hell? and a person who has spent all there life in "service" to god who has raped and mollested children gets into heaven?
see i don't buy that. To me thats just the church takeing more power.

1st, the church has nothing to do with how God set up his creation.

2nd, people keep viewing Heaven as reward and Hell as punishment. That is why so many people fail to see what Christianity claims, they start with a false premise. Heaven is being with God. Hell is being apart from God. If you don't know God, you won't be with him. No one can earn their way into Heaven. It is not possible to get there without help from God.

right punishment is the absance of god. I find it hard to beleive that God would send those that live the life how he wanted (well close) to punishment. I would think that God would want such beings in his company. even fi they did not acknowledge him in "life"

there are way to many people in history that have lived without Jesus's word. I find it hard to believe God would condanm milliosn of people becasue they were born in a area that was not discoverd a few thousand years after his sons passing.

by the same token "priest" (they may work for the church. but they are not priest. just bastardized view of it) that works for the church and claims to be a man of god that raps and mollest children should not be in the grace of God just because he accepts Jesus.

To me the real way to accept God and live your life how he/she/food item wants. To me the idea that you have to a accept jesus/god in your life or risk damnation in hell was just a way for the church to gain more power over its people.

I have more respect for the guy that lives his life fallowing the works then the old "preist" that has mollested children, or the guy that accepts Jesus/God before he gets a needle in his arm.

honestly if that is the case then that is not my heaven.

Sometimes our problem is to try to judge people with our limited vision. We can only judge ppl using our laws. We have judge to decide who's guilty and what punishment should be enforced, but we have no rights or power or wisdom to judge who's going to heaven.

I remember a story from the Bible I don't know if it relates to anything, I don't have time to look it up, but it's kind of like this:
There was a rich man, he hired serveral men to do some work for him, and paid them a fair wage of $5 a day. After working most of the day, the rich man hired another man to help do the work. At the end of the day, the man who was hired later also get the same wage of $5 even thought he worked less than half of the day. The others complained. If we are one of the others we would naturally complain as well. But that's not how God work. Someone who accepted Jesus early in life and lives his entire life accroding to the Bible as best as he can gets the same free gift of Salvation as someone who accept Jesus right before his death.

there are also things we don't know about such as infants who die before they know anything about the Bible.

 

[huberm]

In response to the OPs question, the Bible has several verses about this. Here is a few:

For All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. -Romans 3:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. -Romans 6:23
For God so loved the world He gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. -John 3:16

If you do not know Jesus, I urge you to at least seek some answers. Consider the consequences of not knowing Him, and remember that these consequences won't last 20, 40, even 100 years - they will last forever.

God Bless You

 

[thecrecarc]

Originally posted by: huberm
In response to the OPs question, the Bible has several verses about this. Here is a few:

For All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. -Romans 3:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. -Romans 6:23
For God so loved the world He gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. -John 3:16

If you do not know Jesus, I urge you to at least seek some answers. Consider the consequences of not knowing Him, and remember that these consequences won't last 20, 40, even 100 years - they will last forever.

God Bless You

unless of course, religion is tottaly wrong

 

[randay]

Originally posted by: DAGTANo, Heaven and Earth are different places.

Please explain.

Assuming that I am not seperate because I exist in his creation, is heaven just another creation of god? What are the differences between heaven and earth? Do I have a choice to exist somewhere else instead of earth? Is hell non-existance since it is seperation from god and god created everything? One(you) would assume that it is nothing, does that mean that I would not exist if I went to hell? Would someone who went to hell exist in "a nothingness"? If I am a creation of god, and I were to be seperated from him and his creations, would I cease to exist?

 

[thecrecarc]

Originally posted by: randay

Originally posted by: DAGTANo, Heaven and Earth are different places.

Please explain.

Assuming that I am not seperate because I exist in his creation, is heaven just another creation of god? What are the differences between heaven and earth? Do I have a choice to exist somewhere else instead of earth? Is hell non-existance since it is seperation from god and god created everything? One(you) would assume that it is nothing, does that mean that I would not exist if I went to hell? Would someone who went to hell exist in "a nothingness"? If I am a creation of god, and I were to be seperated from him and his creations, would I cease to exist?

im guessing heaven is like earth... only with no taxes, free internet, and lots a beer. ya. 😎

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: DAGTA

Originally posted by: BudAshes
You realize that was the stupidest thing i have ever read. Seriously dude, you are crazy, just admit it and get some meds.

Since you know everything, please prescribe which medications I should take, the amount, and the frequency. Thanks.

Cyanide, 100mg, just once. You're welcome.





Seriously, its fine to have your beliefs, and you've certainly got company with yours...but its amusing that you make sarcastic remarks about everyone else 'having it all figured out' when you yourself are equally sure of your own beliefs. And you call others on here hypocrites?

You can't say with any authority though that anyone else is wrong and that you're right. There's no proof. Thats what faith is. The crazy homeless man that thinks god is a giant robot that demands blood sacrifices daily could be the only one that has it figured out for all we know.

 

[randay]

Originally posted by: Vic
Osama bin Laden has murdered thousands for personal glory, not the glory of God no matter how much he might claim otherwise, and therefore is not saved.

Are you questioning his faith? Is your faith better then his? More correct? Hes not going to heaven but you are? because your faith says so?

Originally posted by: huberm
In response to the OPs question, the Bible has several verses about this. Here is a few:

For All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. -Romans 3:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. -Romans 6:23
For God so loved the world He gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. -John 3:16

See next quote:

Originally posted by: DAGTA
2nd, people keep viewing Heaven as reward and Hell as punishment. That is why so many people fail to see what Christianity claims, they start with a false premise. Heaven is being with God. Hell is being apart from God. If you don't know God, you won't be with him. No one can earn their way into Heaven. It is not possible to get there without help from God.

huberm seems like a religious person, those verses he quoted seem to give the impression that not believing in god and Jesus will bring punishment upon me, and the opposite will bring rewards. If they are straight from the bible, how can I not view heaven as reward and hell as punishment?

edit:clean up quotes

 

[MBentz]

DAGTA, I think it's cool you're willing to defend what you believe in in the face of all the know-it-all ATOT'ers.

<---- Not religious.

:thumbsup:

 

[Powermoloch]

Originally posted by: waggy
say a person that is born to strict atheist. This child lives a good clean life. helps many many poeple with chertiable works and just beigna good guy. lives by the golden rule etc. A perosn that defines how a person should live (well except for the church and jesus part) he should go to hell? and a person who has spent all there life in "service" to god who has raped and mollested children gets into heaven?
see i don't buy that. To me thats just the church takeing more power.

totally agree.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: iamaelephant

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: iamaelephant

Originally posted by: Vic
The so-called Faith/Good works arguments is quite likely the most misunderstood of all in Christianity. Faith is good works and good works are faith. In other words, you don't believe in the talk if you don't walk the walk. If you walk the walk, then you already believe in the talk. Make sense? And before anyone here goes to the tired argument of Ephesians 2:8-9, they should do themselves a favor and read verse 10 first.

Bullsh!t. There are plenty of good people who don't believe in God or Jesus. It's typical of Christians to turn a blind eye to the atrocities commited in the name of their God and the next minute to claim that all goodness follows from their teachings.

As hard as it may be for you ignorant christians to believe, it's entirely possible to be a good, moral, loving person without believing in fairy tales.

The "talk" I was referring to was the love of humankind, exactly as I posted above and which you editted out. That is the true message of Christ ("for this sums up the Law and the Prophets," in his own words). So if you have that love, then you believe, even if you don't call it God or Christ, and if you don't, then you don't, no matter how much you claim to believe in God and Christ.
Judging by your little outburst of hate and venom, I'd say you don't in either category, so it's not surprising at all to me that you couldn't get my point.

Now hush up, the adults are trying to talk.


edit: BTW, I do not consider myself to be a Christian. Simply because I have educated myself on a subject does not automatically make me a believer in that subject. I am an admirer of the teachings of Jesus but I do not believe he is or was God.

Hate and venom? No sir, I'm afraid you have me all wrong. I don't hate anyone, but I resent the Christian church for their evil and the atrocities throughout history, and I condemn their own hatred of science. I consider myself a good person. I treat others well, I have never stolen, I work hard and I donate to charities.

And are you trying to tell me that a priest, who has given his entire life to the church, doesn't truely believe in God because he like to fiddle with little boys? Or that woman who protests the graves of dead soldiers isn't a true believer? It seems to me that these people have far more faith in their beliefs than the average christian. Their faith in Christ with absolute conviction grants them a ticket into heaven while a good person such as myself will be damned because I refuse to believe in something without concrete evidence (seemingly a more logical point of view).

It never ceases to amaze me the number of assholes on the internet whose only method of argument is to put words in my mouth and try to claim that I am saying something entirely different that what I actually did say.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: randay

Originally posted by: Vic
Osama bin Laden has murdered thousands for personal glory, not the glory of God no matter how much he might claim otherwise, and therefore is not saved.

Are you questioning his faith? Is your faith better then his? More correct? Hes not going to heaven but you are? because your faith says so?

Not at all. His faith says so. The Koran is far more harsh against murder and murderers than is the Bible (not that that is my faith, which I even said). But hey, way to put words in my mouth! Yet another asshole!

 

[randay]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: randay

Originally posted by: Vic
Osama bin Laden has murdered thousands for personal glory, not the glory of God no matter how much he might claim otherwise, and therefore is not saved.

Are you questioning his faith? Is your faith better then his? More correct? Hes not going to heaven but you are? because your faith says so?

Not at all. His faith says so. The Koran is far more harsh against murder and murderers than is the Bible (not that that is my faith, which I even said). But hey, way to put words in my mouth! Yet another asshole!

For a giant flaming asshole, who seems to like to argue sh!t for the fvck of it, you sure know a lot about religions that you do not believe in. fvcking asshole.

Also never did I say that the bible was what you believed in. so you can STFU. ass. hole. asshole. your mom. is fat. so fat. very fat. fat. ass. hole.