Question for religious people - OP Updated with summary

[imported_LoKe]

Didn't read the thread, but that sounds like bullsh!t to me. If you die when you don't beleive in Jesus or God, you should still technically be sent to the purogatory, if it exists. The only reason anyone would go to hell is if they're truly "evil" like murderers and whatnot. I couldn't imagine He would cast someone aside for not believing in Him. However, I don't believe in God, nor do I believe in the Devil so hey, no biggie!

 

[mooncancook]

Originally posted by: Extelleron

Originally posted by: mooncancook

It's a far greater crime to kill another human being than to not believe in a higher power.

Murder is perhaps the greatest crime. God forgives the sin, but not the crime. Even if the murderer truely repent and that God forgive his sin, he still has to pay the consequence for his crime on this earth, be it death panalty or life sentence. You will not be put to jail for not believing in God. But if you believe in yourself instead of God, you are placing yourself above God, that's a sin according to the Bible, but it's never a crime on earth.

Believe in yourself? So I'm supposed to believe in God and acknowledge that he exists, but not "believe in myself" and not acknowledge that I exist? 😕

sorry to confuse you... what I meant by when we believe in ourself was totally beliving in ourself while denying God's existense. So when we believe in God it's kind of like we believe in our parents when we just learned to walk and going up/down a stair that we believe in our parents that they'll catch us if we fall, but we are not denying our ability to stand and walk either.

 

[randay]

what if hell is a nice place? maybe I might like it there more then heaven?

 

[DAGTA]

Originally posted by: randay
what if hell is a nice place? maybe I might like it there more then heaven?

Hell is defined as eternal separation from God. I imagine it could be like floating in absolute blackness, alone, without vision or sound, for all eternity.

Doesn't sound very pleasant to me, though I imagine anyone in that situation would go mad very quickly.

 

[mooncancook]

Originally posted by: LoKe
Didn't read the thread, but that sounds like bullsh!t to me. If you die when you don't beleive in Jesus or God, you should still technically be sent to the purogatory, if it exists. The only reason anyone would go to hell is if they're truly "evil" like murderers and whatnot. I couldn't imagine He would cast someone aside for not believing in Him. However, I don't believe in God, nor do I believe in the Devil so hey, no biggie!

Can you quote something from the Bible about this purogatory? Can you say you can be righteous before God? that means if God ask you the question "have you commited any sin?" and your answer has to be a definate "No". there is no "Yes but".

 

[randay]

Originally posted by: DAGTA

Originally posted by: randay
what if hell is a nice place? maybe I might like it there more then heaven?

Hell is defined as eternal separation from God. I imagine it could be like floating in absolute blackness, alone, without vision or sound, for all eternity.

Doesn't sound very pleasant to me, though I imagine anyone in that situation would go mad very quickly.

But I am already seperate from god? I don't believe in him. I don't think I am mad, but I could be wrong.

 

[iamaelephant]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Good works should flow from true belief.

ZV

You mean good works like protesting a fallen soldier's funeral? Or more like the good works of the catholic church sending Galileo into exile for decades? Or good works like raping choir boys?

 

[mooncancook]

Originally posted by: randay
what if hell is a nice place? maybe I might like it there more then heaven?

maybe, if you like the smell of sulfur.
j/k there might be a chance but it's not worth risking imo

 

[DAGTA]

Originally posted by: randay

Originally posted by: DAGTA

Originally posted by: randay
what if hell is a nice place? maybe I might like it there more then heaven?

Hell is defined as eternal separation from God. I imagine it could be like floating in absolute blackness, alone, without vision or sound, for all eternity.

Doesn't sound very pleasant to me, though I imagine anyone in that situation would go mad very quickly.

But I am already seperate from god? I don't believe in him. I don't think I am mad, but I could be wrong.

Assuming God is real (for the sake of this post) and this world is his creation, then you are not separate from God. You are benefiting from his creation all the time just by living on Earth.

 

[imported_LoKe]

Originally posted by: mooncancook

Originally posted by: LoKe
Didn't read the thread, but that sounds like bullsh!t to me. If you die when you don't beleive in Jesus or God, you should still technically be sent to the purogatory, if it exists. The only reason anyone would go to hell is if they're truly "evil" like murderers and whatnot. I couldn't imagine He would cast someone aside for not believing in Him. However, I don't believe in God, nor do I believe in the Devil so hey, no biggie!

Can you quote something from the Bible about this purogatory? Can you say you can be righteous before God? that means if God ask you the question "have you commited any sin?" and your answer has to be a definate "No". there is no "Yes but".

It seems you're right. There's no mention of the purgatory in the bible.

Does that mean if someone does sin, but believes in God, they're still screwed? Or does their faith somehow over-ride that? 😕

 

[DAGTA]

Originally posted by: iamaelephant

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Good works should flow from true belief.

ZV

You mean good works like protesting a falen soldier's funeral? Or more like the good works of the catholic church sending Galileo into exile for decades? Or good works like raping choir boys?

Can you name any organization in the world, throughout all of history, where all of its members have behaved perfectly? I can't.

 

[iamaelephant]

Originally posted by: DAGTA

Originally posted by: iamaelephant

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Good works should flow from true belief.

ZV

You mean good works like protesting a falen soldier's funeral? Or more like the good works of the catholic church sending Galileo into exile for decades? Or good works like raping choir boys?

Can you name any organization in the world, throughout all of history, where all of its members have behaved perfectly? I can't.

That's irrelevant. We're talking about christianity here. Fact is, according to you, these people will all be saved, where people who donate 50% of their pay check to orphans with diseases but have never even heard of Christ (or think the whole notion is as silly as I do) will be forever damned.

So my conclusion is, if you want to be saved, you better get out there and molest some children!

 

[DAGTA]

Originally posted by: LoKe

Originally posted by: mooncancook

Originally posted by: LoKe
Didn't read the thread, but that sounds like bullsh!t to me. If you die when you don't beleive in Jesus or God, you should still technically be sent to the purogatory, if it exists. The only reason anyone would go to hell is if they're truly "evil" like murderers and whatnot. I couldn't imagine He would cast someone aside for not believing in Him. However, I don't believe in God, nor do I believe in the Devil so hey, no biggie!

Can you quote something from the Bible about this purogatory? Can you say you can be righteous before God? that means if God ask you the question "have you commited any sin?" and your answer has to be a definate "No". there is no "Yes but".

It seems you're right. There's no mention of the purgatory in the bible.

Does that mean if someone does sin, but believes in God, they're still screwed? Or does their faith somehow over-ride that? 😕

During the old covenant (Old Testament times), sin had to be atoned for with blood. Since humans didn't want to die, God was willing to accept animal blood for the atonement of sin. That was the reason for so much animal sacrifice. However, it wasn't enough and God knew people needed something easier and better.

God sent Jesus, his perfect son. Jesus did many things for us... he lived an example of a life dedicated to God, he taught us many great morals and ideas, etc. However, the most important thing Jesus did for us was to serve as the ultimate sacrifice for sin. Jesus died without sin and gave his life and blood as atonement for all the sins of the world, past, present, and future. In order for his sacrifice to cover the sins of a person, that person need only accept Jesus as his savior and believe. That does not mean everyone has a free ticket to sin... we all will still answer for our sins. The difference is that with Jesus taking the cost of the sin upon himself, we don't have to die or be separated from God forever because of our sin. It's paid for, but we still need to repent and try to avoid sin.

 

[DAGTA]

Originally posted by: iamaelephant

Originally posted by: DAGTA

Originally posted by: iamaelephant

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Good works should flow from true belief.

ZV

You mean good works like protesting a falen soldier's funeral? Or more like the good works of the catholic church sending Galileo into exile for decades? Or good works like raping choir boys?

Can you name any organization in the world, throughout all of history, where all of its members have behaved perfectly? I can't.

That's irrelevant. We're talking about christianity here. Fact is, according to you, these people will all be saved, where people who donate 50% of their pay check to orphans with diseases but have never even heard of Christ (or think the whole notion is as silly as I do) will be forever damned.

So my conclusion is, if you want to be saved, you better get out there and molest some children!

With logic like that, I suggest you avoid mathematics and computer programming as career options. 🙂

 

[mooncancook]

Originally posted by: iamaelephant

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Good works should flow from true belief.

ZV

You mean good works like protesting a fallen soldier's funeral? Or more like the good works of the catholic church sending Galileo into exile for decades? Or good works like raping choir boys?

Generalization is a dead end to any discussion. But seriously I believe the rapist from the catholic church has fallen to Satan and they will be punished, but I'm not here to judge coz only God can see one's heart and judge. I mean if someone claim he's a believer then I can only take his word for it, but only God knows from his heart if he really is a believer.

 

[imported_LoKe]

Originally posted by: DAGTA
During the old covenant (Old Testament times), sin had to be atoned for with blood. Since humans didn't want to die, God was willing to accept animal blood for the atonement of sin. That was the reason for so much animal sacrifice. However, it wasn't enough and God knew people needed something easier and better.

God sent Jesus, his perfect son. Jesus did many things for us... he lived an example of a life dedicated to God, he taught us many great morals and ideas, etc. However, the most important thing Jesus did for us was to serve as the ultimate sacrifice for sin. Jesus died without sin and gave his life and blood as atonement for all the sins of the world, past, present, and future. In order for his sacrifice to cover the sins of a person, that person need only accept Jesus as his savior and believe. That does not mean everyone has a free ticket to sin... we all will still answer for our sins. The difference is that with Jesus taking the cost of the sin upon himself, we don't have to die or be separated from God forever because of our sin. It's paid for, but we still need to repent and try to avoid sin.

That's a very good explanation. Thanks. =]

 

[DAGTA]

Originally posted by: LoKe

Originally posted by: DAGTA
During the old covenant (Old Testament times), sin had to be atoned for with blood. Since humans didn't want to die, God was willing to accept animal blood for the atonement of sin. That was the reason for so much animal sacrifice. However, it wasn't enough and God knew people needed something easier and better.

God sent Jesus, his perfect son. Jesus did many things for us... he lived an example of a life dedicated to God, he taught us many great morals and ideas, etc. However, the most important thing Jesus did for us was to serve as the ultimate sacrifice for sin. Jesus died without sin and gave his life and blood as atonement for all the sins of the world, past, present, and future. In order for his sacrifice to cover the sins of a person, that person need only accept Jesus as his savior and believe. That does not mean everyone has a free ticket to sin... we all will still answer for our sins. The difference is that with Jesus taking the cost of the sin upon himself, we don't have to die or be separated from God forever because of our sin. It's paid for, but we still need to repent and try to avoid sin.

That's a very good explanation. Thanks. =]

You're very welcome. 🙂

 

[iamaelephant]

Originally posted by: DAGTA

Originally posted by: iamaelephant

Originally posted by: DAGTA

Originally posted by: iamaelephant

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Good works should flow from true belief.

ZV

You mean good works like protesting a falen soldier's funeral? Or more like the good works of the catholic church sending Galileo into exile for decades? Or good works like raping choir boys?

Can you name any organization in the world, throughout all of history, where all of its members have behaved perfectly? I can't.

That's irrelevant. We're talking about christianity here. Fact is, according to you, these people will all be saved, where people who donate 50% of their pay check to orphans with diseases but have never even heard of Christ (or think the whole notion is as silly as I do) will be forever damned.

So my conclusion is, if you want to be saved, you better get out there and molest some children!

With logic like that, I suggest you avoid mathematics and computer programming as career options. 🙂

Right, your logic is far superior to mine.

 

[randay]

Originally posted by: DAGTA

Originally posted by: randay

Originally posted by: DAGTA

Originally posted by: randay
what if hell is a nice place? maybe I might like it there more then heaven?

Hell is defined as eternal separation from God. I imagine it could be like floating in absolute blackness, alone, without vision or sound, for all eternity.

Doesn't sound very pleasant to me, though I imagine anyone in that situation would go mad very quickly.

But I am already seperate from god? I don't believe in him. I don't think I am mad, but I could be wrong.

Assuming God is real (for the sake of this post) and this world is his creation, then you are not separate from God. You are benefiting from his creation all the time just by living on Earth.

Ok... Does that mean I am already in heaven?

 

[iamaelephant]

Originally posted by: mooncancook

Originally posted by: iamaelephant

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Good works should flow from true belief.

ZV

You mean good works like protesting a fallen soldier's funeral? Or more like the good works of the catholic church sending Galileo into exile for decades? Or good works like raping choir boys?

Generalization is a dead end to any discussion. But seriously I believe the rapist from the catholic church has fallen to Satan and they will be punished, but I'm not here to judge coz only God can see one's heart and judge. I mean if someone claim he's a believer then I can only take his word for it, but only God knows from his heart if he really is a believer.

I didn't generalise anything, these are just a small selection of the good deeds done by people in the name of God. In fact, these are some of the most righteous people out there. Priests, the Pope and some crazy lady with a lot more conviction in her belief than you will ever have.

 

[DAGTA]

Originally posted by: iamaelephant

Originally posted by: DAGTA

Originally posted by: iamaelephant

Originally posted by: DAGTA

Originally posted by: iamaelephant

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Good works should flow from true belief.

ZV

You mean good works like protesting a falen soldier's funeral? Or more like the good works of the catholic church sending Galileo into exile for decades? Or good works like raping choir boys?

Can you name any organization in the world, throughout all of history, where all of its members have behaved perfectly? I can't.

That's irrelevant. We're talking about christianity here. Fact is, according to you, these people will all be saved, where people who donate 50% of their pay check to orphans with diseases but have never even heard of Christ (or think the whole notion is as silly as I do) will be forever damned.

So my conclusion is, if you want to be saved, you better get out there and molest some children!

With logic like that, I suggest you avoid mathematics and computer programming as career options. 🙂

Right, your logic is far superior to mine.

Perhaps. I am a computer programmer. 😉

 

[DAGTA]

Originally posted by: randay

Originally posted by: DAGTA

Originally posted by: randay

Originally posted by: DAGTA

Originally posted by: randay
what if hell is a nice place? maybe I might like it there more then heaven?

Hell is defined as eternal separation from God. I imagine it could be like floating in absolute blackness, alone, without vision or sound, for all eternity.

Doesn't sound very pleasant to me, though I imagine anyone in that situation would go mad very quickly.

But I am already seperate from god? I don't believe in him. I don't think I am mad, but I could be wrong.

Assuming God is real (for the sake of this post) and this world is his creation, then you are not separate from God. You are benefiting from his creation all the time just by living on Earth.

Ok... Does that mean I am already in heaven?

No, Heaven and Earth are different places.

 

[waggy]

say a person that is born to strict atheist. This child lives a good clean life. helps many many poeple with chertiable works and just beigna good guy. lives by the golden rule etc. A perosn that defines how a person should live (well except for the church and jesus part) he should go to hell? and a person who has spent all there life in "service" to god who has raped and mollested children gets into heaven?
see i don't buy that. To me thats just the church takeing more power.

 

[Special K]

Originally posted by: alien42
according to every christian i have asked, if you are a child molestor and rapist you will go to heaven if you accept and are saved by jesus the day before you die but if you are a good human being and treat others by the golden rule and make a real difference in the world you will go to hell if you dont accept jesus

what kind of god would be in favor of that 😕

I don't claim to be an expert but when I read this, there was one particular passage in the Bible I was reminded of:

link

If you don't want to read the whole story, the basic message is this: "Life isn't fair". If God grants equal salvation to a good person who has spent their entire life doing good works as to the deathbed repenter who has led a life of evil, who are you as the good person to criticize God for being generous? You still got your own salvation, right? Why are you envious of God's generosity?

Granted I struggle with envy and the whole "life isn't fair" bit all the time, but I think that particular passage does a good job of explaining the situation.

 

[DAGTA]

Originally posted by: waggy
say a person that is born to strict atheist. This child lives a good clean life. helps many many poeple with chertiable works and just beigna good guy. lives by the golden rule etc. A perosn that defines how a person should live (well except for the church and jesus part) he should go to hell? and a person who has spent all there life in "service" to god who has raped and mollested children gets into heaven?
see i don't buy that. To me thats just the church takeing more power.

1st, the church has nothing to do with how God set up his creation.

2nd, people keep viewing Heaven as reward and Hell as punishment. That is why so many people fail to see what Christianity claims, they start with a false premise. Heaven is being with God. Hell is being apart from God. If you don't know God, you won't be with him. No one can earn their way into Heaven. It is not possible to get there without help from God.