Question for Muslims...

[mOeeOm]

Originally posted by: Condor

Originally posted by: mOeeOm

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Condor

Originally posted by: Astaroth33
My question is inspired by events such as the French riots, the murder of Theo van Gogh, and the thread on this page regarding the cartoon that depicted Islam in a negative light:

Are you first and foremost a Muslim, or are you first and foremost a citizen of the country in which you live and have citizenship? If you consider yourself first and foremost a Muslim, are you bound by Islamic law? If so what do you adhere to if there is a conflict between Islamic law and the laws of the country in which you reside?

If you feel Islamic law takes precedence when there is a conflict, to where adhering to Islamic law means that you are breaking the laws of the state, why do you feel like you are entitled to continue being a member of the state?

In my opinion, were you to do something like kill Theo van Gogh because he did something offensive to Islam, something which might be perfectly in order with Islamic law, you would no longer be entitled to the protections of the state in which you live, and should be removed from the state, be it by incarceration, execution, or deportation.

Once they have eliminated all states and the world is ruled by Islamic law and Mullahs, it won't really matter, will it?

Ok, seriously, you sound like you're planning on blowing up your local Mosque...should I keep my eye on the news?

No no he has this image that Muslims are out for world domination....

Not an image at all. The only reason they don't rule the world with us as slaves is that they are incapable of anything but the dream. The dream that is killing millions!

Wow....just wow...

 

[cumhail]

Originally posted by: Astaroth33
My question is inspired by events such as the French riots, the murder of Theo van Gogh, and the thread on this page regarding the cartoon that depicted Islam in a negative light...
[snip]

Sorry, but I don't see much hope in getting an accurate, authentic, or even remotely representative "muslim viewpoint" (whatever that is) out of this thread, just as we wouldn't get any such christian or jewish or hindu or whatever viewpoint from a similarly posed question to members of other faiths. Beyond the fact that all of the above religions, and others, are broken into sects, factions, and schools of thoughts, and that the views and interpretations of one adherent may differ widely from anothers, lie three overarching facts that preclude any possibility of achieving the stated goal of this thread:

First, there is the fact that the number of posters who claim to be practicing muslims is so small that no representative sample could ever be claimed. You have two (sorry if I missed anyone) people, so far, who seem to already believe this fact.

Second, there is the fact that we have no means of evaluating the sincerity of anyone's claims, regarding their religions, or anything else. We have people swear up and down that they're independents or liberals or conservatives or christians or jews or muslims or whatever... yet whose every post makes it clear they are being less than forthcoming in sharing their views, their biases, etc.

And thirdly, there is the demonstrated fact that for every rational post, 10 more will be made for no other discernable purpose than to attack other people (on the forum or outside of it) and/or to get a reaction. No, I am not going to mention any names. But think about any issue, and divide the forum's posters into two sides (yes, I know there are usually more than two sides... but stick with two). Would you be comfortable being represented by the views and posts of every P&N poster who falls more onto your side than other? I know I wouldn't.

That this thread so quickly degenerated into what it has become isn't surprising. What would be surprising would be if someone thought it wouldn't.

cumhail

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: mOeeOm

Originally posted by: bdude

Originally posted by: mOeeOm

Originally posted by: Astaroth33
My question is inspired by events such as the French riots, the murder of Theo van Gogh, and the thread on this page regarding the cartoon that depicted Islam in a negative light:

Are you first and foremost a Muslim, or are you first and foremost a citizen of the country in which you live and have citizenship? If you consider yourself first and foremost a Muslim, are you bound by Islamic law? If so what do you adhere to if there is a conflict between Islamic law and the laws of the country in which you reside?

If you feel Islamic law takes precedence when there is a conflict, to where adhering to Islamic law means that you are breaking the laws of the state, why do you feel like you are entitled to continue being a member of the state?

In my opinion, were you to do something like kill Theo van Gogh because he did something offensive to Islam, something which might be perfectly in order with Islamic law, you would no longer be entitled to the protections of the state in which you live, and should be removed from the state, be it by incarceration, execution, or deportation.

Well, laws are based on religion, especially the 10 commandments, and the Christian/Muslim/Jewish laws are the same. If we are talking about just laws, then yes I am bound by Islamic law, there is really no conflict between islamic law and the laws of a country, whatever is considered a crime is the same, but what is different is the punishment. The laws of the state are the same as the laws of Islam in its basic form, such as murder, stealing, rape etc etc etc.

The law is not an issue, what people can do or not do is the issue. The law of Islam is that you cannot spread lies about Islam, if you do it is punishable by death, such as the case of Theo Van Gogh. Criticizing is fine, spreading lies is another thing. In this case, then I believe Islamic law takes first priority in order to stop the lies from spreading further.

Law in modern day society is (generally) not based on religion.

Theo Van Gogh was not a muslim. Therefore he was not bound by Islamic law.

Everyone is bound by Islamic law when it comes to something like this.

What kind of childish thought process is this? My religions say waa waa so you have to follow it or else!

Well my religion say murder is wrong in any circumstances, even if somebody depicts your religion in a bad light and hurts your little feelings waa waa.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Aimster
Muslims in Europe are not like Muslims in the U.S

It seems the Muslims in the U.S are intelligent and mind their own business.

The ones in Europe have Mcdonalds type jobs. Not that there is anything wrong with that....

May have something to do with demographics. I believe nearly 10% of Frances population is Islamic.

You show up with 30 million Muslims in the United States and things will change.

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: mOeeOm
there is really no conflict between islamic law and the laws of a country, whatever is considered a crime is the same, but what is different is the punishment. The laws of the state are the same as the laws of Islam in its basic form, such as murder, stealing, rape etc etc etc.

there are vast numbers of activities that are considered crimes under Sharia (Islamic law) but which are considered perfectly reasonable activities under Western liberal democratic systems.

Islamic law seeks ultimate control over each individual's expression of and use of their sexuality. Anyone who is homosexual, a prostitute, or has the misfortune of being raped, is subject to horrendous physical punishments up to and including death.

Originally posted by: mOeeOm
The law is not an issue, what people can do or not do is the issue. The law of Islam is that you cannot spread lies about Islam, if you do it is punishable by death, such as the case of Theo Van Gogh.

Van Gogh spread THRUTH about Islam, not lies. For this he was murdered.

The reality is that Mohammed was a pedophile/ child rapist and war monger.

Interestingly, there is also good evidence that Mohammed was bisexual,and had intense sexual and romantic relationships with a number of his young male followers.

Originally posted by: mOeeOm
Criticizing is fine, spreading lies is another thing. In this case, then I believe Islamic law takes first priority in order to stop the lies from spreading further.

I.e., you fully support the murder of Van Gogh.

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: Condor

Originally posted by: Astaroth33
My question is inspired by events such as the French riots, the murder of Theo van Gogh, and the thread on this page regarding the cartoon that depicted Islam in a negative light:

Are you first and foremost a Muslim, or are you first and foremost a citizen of the country in which you live and have citizenship? If you consider yourself first and foremost a Muslim, are you bound by Islamic law? If so what do you adhere to if there is a conflict between Islamic law and the laws of the country in which you reside?

If you feel Islamic law takes precedence when there is a conflict, to where adhering to Islamic law means that you are breaking the laws of the state, why do you feel like you are entitled to continue being a member of the state?

In my opinion, were you to do something like kill Theo van Gogh because he did something offensive to Islam, something which might be perfectly in order with Islamic law, you would no longer be entitled to the protections of the state in which you live, and should be removed from the state, be it by incarceration, execution, or deportation.

Once they have eliminated all states and the world is ruled by Islamic law and Mullahs, it won't really matter, will it?

Every Muslim country has laws based on Islamic Laws. Are you suggesting every Muslim nation is "evil"?

I think it is a reasonable generalisation to say that every Muslim nation is evil.

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Originally posted by: magomago

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
I am sure that it happened in some places.

What lies did Theo Van Gogh have in his movie? My perception of it was that it was criticizing the culture and its manipulation of the religion.

He blames the reason why men act abusive to woman is because of Islam. The writing on Islamic verses on a woman's beaten back, women saying things such as "My husband beats me every night which i do not like, but because you say he controls me I thank you for every punch"...the list goes on. It falsely twists Quranic verses (and tweaks the translation slightly...and normally I don't see the problem since I can think of three Qurans translated each in english in his own way, but I doubt he is looking for linguistic objectivity) by taking them out of context so their real meaning can be understood, and it apparantly ignores it all.
Even the simplest things he lies abouts!!! NOTHING in Islam forces a daughter into marraige, and she herself has to consent to it!

He wants to bash on the immigrant culture that doesn't give woman freedom? That is fine and I'll applaud him. But he wants to say men are abusive BECAUSE of Islam...that is where he starts to spout bs.

Aimster. Arabs in the USA are "more intelligent" because those who come here usually have the MEANS to come because they have money and an eduction. The average income for Arabs is something liek 60-70K in the USA. But those in Europe are poor immigrants and refugees, they do not have the means that we do.

who are you kidding, the script for van goghs movie was written by a former muslim woman. its not lies, just the simple reality of the situation. and look all over the middle east if you want to see if religion is used to keep women down. its not a lie. stop being an apologist for scripture. and frankly theres many a anti woman verse in islam. if you can't even acknowledge this your devotion has made you completely blind to its faults. its not easily explained away as its the direct word of god through mohammed. you have no wiggle room. the only way around it is to pretend its not there. to ignore parts of your religion, to become a liar, a bad muslim. sorry, thats the harsh reality without the politically correct nonsense. you've been dancing around the elephant in the room for far too long. like many a religious person.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali..a brave righteous woman
http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/2157/context/archive

Koran translation by N.J. Dawood, Penguin Classics.

Surah 4 - Women (Al Nisa) verse 34: "Men have authority over women
because God has made /the/ one superior to the other, and because
they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient.
They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them (hymen).
As for those from whom you fear disobediance, admonish them and send
them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you take no
further action against them. God is high, supreme."

Another translation:

"Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in
the husband's absence what God would have them guard (their vagina,
i.e. hymen). As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and
ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds, beat them;
but if they return in obedience, seek not against them means: for
God is Most High, Great above you all."




ccording to the Koran, for example, the fornicatress and the fornicator must be flogged a hundred stripes (The Light: 24.2). Those who are guilty of an 'indecency' must be 'confined until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.' (The Women, 4.15). 'Men are the maintainers of women' and 'good' women are obedient. Those that men fear 'desertion', can be admonished, confined and beaten' (The Women, 4.34). Wives are 'a tilth for you, so go into your tilth when you like' (The Cow, 2.223). Veiling is promoted in the Koran: 'O Prophet! Say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments' (The Clans, 33.59).

http://www.medusa2000.com/islammiddle.htm
Islam, Political Islam and Women in the Middle East
Maryam Namazie


The situation of women living in Islam-stricken societies and under Islamic laws is the outrage of the 21st century. Burqa-clad and veiled women and girls, beheadings, stoning to death, floggings, child sexual abuse in the name of marriage and sexual apartheid are only the most brutal and visible aspects of women's rightlessness and third class status in the Middle East.

This is Nothing but Islam.......


and lets not even get into rabid homophobia and antisemitism. stop defending what no rational person should be defending.

ownage...

funny how when this is brought up the two muslims in here dont even comment on it.

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: Condor

Originally posted by: Astaroth33
My question is inspired by events such as the French riots, the murder of Theo van Gogh, and the thread on this page regarding the cartoon that depicted Islam in a negative light:

Are you first and foremost a Muslim, or are you first and foremost a citizen of the country in which you live and have citizenship? If you consider yourself first and foremost a Muslim, are you bound by Islamic law? If so what do you adhere to if there is a conflict between Islamic law and the laws of the country in which you reside?

If you feel Islamic law takes precedence when there is a conflict, to where adhering to Islamic law means that you are breaking the laws of the state, why do you feel like you are entitled to continue being a member of the state?

In my opinion, were you to do something like kill Theo van Gogh because he did something offensive to Islam, something which might be perfectly in order with Islamic law, you would no longer be entitled to the protections of the state in which you live, and should be removed from the state, be it by incarceration, execution, or deportation.

Once they have eliminated all states and the world is ruled by Islamic law and Mullahs, it won't really matter, will it?

Every Muslim country has laws based on Islamic Laws. Are you suggesting every Muslim nation is "evil"?

I think it is a reasonable generalisation to say that every Muslim nation is evil.

I think you're an idiot.

 

[mOeeOm]

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Originally posted by: magomago

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
I am sure that it happened in some places.

What lies did Theo Van Gogh have in his movie? My perception of it was that it was criticizing the culture and its manipulation of the religion.

He blames the reason why men act abusive to woman is because of Islam. The writing on Islamic verses on a woman's beaten back, women saying things such as "My husband beats me every night which i do not like, but because you say he controls me I thank you for every punch"...the list goes on. It falsely twists Quranic verses (and tweaks the translation slightly...and normally I don't see the problem since I can think of three Qurans translated each in english in his own way, but I doubt he is looking for linguistic objectivity) by taking them out of context so their real meaning can be understood, and it apparantly ignores it all.
Even the simplest things he lies abouts!!! NOTHING in Islam forces a daughter into marraige, and she herself has to consent to it!

He wants to bash on the immigrant culture that doesn't give woman freedom? That is fine and I'll applaud him. But he wants to say men are abusive BECAUSE of Islam...that is where he starts to spout bs.

Aimster. Arabs in the USA are "more intelligent" because those who come here usually have the MEANS to come because they have money and an eduction. The average income for Arabs is something liek 60-70K in the USA. But those in Europe are poor immigrants and refugees, they do not have the means that we do.

who are you kidding, the script for van goghs movie was written by a former muslim woman. its not lies, just the simple reality of the situation. and look all over the middle east if you want to see if religion is used to keep women down. its not a lie. stop being an apologist for scripture. and frankly theres many a anti woman verse in islam. if you can't even acknowledge this your devotion has made you completely blind to its faults. its not easily explained away as its the direct word of god through mohammed. you have no wiggle room. the only way around it is to pretend its not there. to ignore parts of your religion, to become a liar, a bad muslim. sorry, thats the harsh reality without the politically correct nonsense. you've been dancing around the elephant in the room for far too long. like many a religious person.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali..a brave righteous woman
http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/2157/context/archive

Koran translation by N.J. Dawood, Penguin Classics.

Surah 4 - Women (Al Nisa) verse 34: "Men have authority over women
because God has made /the/ one superior to the other, and because
they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient.
They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them (hymen).
As for those from whom you fear disobediance, admonish them and send
them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you take no
further action against them. God is high, supreme."

Another translation:

"Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in
the husband's absence what God would have them guard (their vagina,
i.e. hymen). As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and
ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds, beat them;
but if they return in obedience, seek not against them means: for
God is Most High, Great above you all."




ccording to the Koran, for example, the fornicatress and the fornicator must be flogged a hundred stripes (The Light: 24.2). Those who are guilty of an 'indecency' must be 'confined until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.' (The Women, 4.15). 'Men are the maintainers of women' and 'good' women are obedient. Those that men fear 'desertion', can be admonished, confined and beaten' (The Women, 4.34). Wives are 'a tilth for you, so go into your tilth when you like' (The Cow, 2.223). Veiling is promoted in the Koran: 'O Prophet! Say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments' (The Clans, 33.59).

http://www.medusa2000.com/islammiddle.htm
Islam, Political Islam and Women in the Middle East
Maryam Namazie


The situation of women living in Islam-stricken societies and under Islamic laws is the outrage of the 21st century. Burqa-clad and veiled women and girls, beheadings, stoning to death, floggings, child sexual abuse in the name of marriage and sexual apartheid are only the most brutal and visible aspects of women's rightlessness and third class status in the Middle East.

This is Nothing but Islam.......


and lets not even get into rabid homophobia and antisemitism. stop defending what no rational person should be defending.

ownage...

funny how when this is brought up the two muslims in here dont even comment on it.

What can we tell you? Its written by Hirsi Ali..the same woman who wrote Theo's movie which is agreed to be all lies because he is just anti-religion. Enough said? No?

I'd rather read some actual research about Islam...not some random pages. You won't find any actual research on Islam because people realize after they start that it all makes sense, the only ones that actually do it are the ones who post lies like Hirsi Ali.

Show me some legit research then we'll talk.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: mOeeOm

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Originally posted by: magomago

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
I am sure that it happened in some places.

What lies did Theo Van Gogh have in his movie? My perception of it was that it was criticizing the culture and its manipulation of the religion.

He blames the reason why men act abusive to woman is because of Islam. The writing on Islamic verses on a woman's beaten back, women saying things such as "My husband beats me every night which i do not like, but because you say he controls me I thank you for every punch"...the list goes on. It falsely twists Quranic verses (and tweaks the translation slightly...and normally I don't see the problem since I can think of three Qurans translated each in english in his own way, but I doubt he is looking for linguistic objectivity) by taking them out of context so their real meaning can be understood, and it apparantly ignores it all.
Even the simplest things he lies abouts!!! NOTHING in Islam forces a daughter into marraige, and she herself has to consent to it!

He wants to bash on the immigrant culture that doesn't give woman freedom? That is fine and I'll applaud him. But he wants to say men are abusive BECAUSE of Islam...that is where he starts to spout bs.

Aimster. Arabs in the USA are "more intelligent" because those who come here usually have the MEANS to come because they have money and an eduction. The average income for Arabs is something liek 60-70K in the USA. But those in Europe are poor immigrants and refugees, they do not have the means that we do.

who are you kidding, the script for van goghs movie was written by a former muslim woman. its not lies, just the simple reality of the situation. and look all over the middle east if you want to see if religion is used to keep women down. its not a lie. stop being an apologist for scripture. and frankly theres many a anti woman verse in islam. if you can't even acknowledge this your devotion has made you completely blind to its faults. its not easily explained away as its the direct word of god through mohammed. you have no wiggle room. the only way around it is to pretend its not there. to ignore parts of your religion, to become a liar, a bad muslim. sorry, thats the harsh reality without the politically correct nonsense. you've been dancing around the elephant in the room for far too long. like many a religious person.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali..a brave righteous woman
http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/2157/context/archive

Koran translation by N.J. Dawood, Penguin Classics.

Surah 4 - Women (Al Nisa) verse 34: "Men have authority over women
because God has made /the/ one superior to the other, and because
they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient.
They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them (hymen).
As for those from whom you fear disobediance, admonish them and send
them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you take no
further action against them. God is high, supreme."

Another translation:

"Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in
the husband's absence what God would have them guard (their vagina,
i.e. hymen). As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and
ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds, beat them;
but if they return in obedience, seek not against them means: for
God is Most High, Great above you all."




ccording to the Koran, for example, the fornicatress and the fornicator must be flogged a hundred stripes (The Light: 24.2). Those who are guilty of an 'indecency' must be 'confined until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.' (The Women, 4.15). 'Men are the maintainers of women' and 'good' women are obedient. Those that men fear 'desertion', can be admonished, confined and beaten' (The Women, 4.34). Wives are 'a tilth for you, so go into your tilth when you like' (The Cow, 2.223). Veiling is promoted in the Koran: 'O Prophet! Say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments' (The Clans, 33.59).

http://www.medusa2000.com/islammiddle.htm
Islam, Political Islam and Women in the Middle East
Maryam Namazie


The situation of women living in Islam-stricken societies and under Islamic laws is the outrage of the 21st century. Burqa-clad and veiled women and girls, beheadings, stoning to death, floggings, child sexual abuse in the name of marriage and sexual apartheid are only the most brutal and visible aspects of women's rightlessness and third class status in the Middle East.

This is Nothing but Islam.......


and lets not even get into rabid homophobia and antisemitism. stop defending what no rational person should be defending.

ownage...

funny how when this is brought up the two muslims in here dont even comment on it.

What can we tell you? Its written by Hirsi Ali..the same woman who wrote Theo's movie which is agreed to be all lies because he is just anti-religion. Enough said? No?

I'd rather read some actual research about Islam...not some random pages. You won't find any actual research on Islam because people realize after they start that it all makes sense, the only ones that actually do it are the ones who post lies like Hirsi Ali.

Show me some legit research then we'll talk.

I dont think it would matter, you have your head so far up allahs butt no amount of proof will sway you.

 

[mOeeOm]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: mOeeOm

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Originally posted by: magomago

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
I am sure that it happened in some places.

What lies did Theo Van Gogh have in his movie? My perception of it was that it was criticizing the culture and its manipulation of the religion.

He blames the reason why men act abusive to woman is because of Islam. The writing on Islamic verses on a woman's beaten back, women saying things such as "My husband beats me every night which i do not like, but because you say he controls me I thank you for every punch"...the list goes on. It falsely twists Quranic verses (and tweaks the translation slightly...and normally I don't see the problem since I can think of three Qurans translated each in english in his own way, but I doubt he is looking for linguistic objectivity) by taking them out of context so their real meaning can be understood, and it apparantly ignores it all.
Even the simplest things he lies abouts!!! NOTHING in Islam forces a daughter into marraige, and she herself has to consent to it!

He wants to bash on the immigrant culture that doesn't give woman freedom? That is fine and I'll applaud him. But he wants to say men are abusive BECAUSE of Islam...that is where he starts to spout bs.

Aimster. Arabs in the USA are "more intelligent" because those who come here usually have the MEANS to come because they have money and an eduction. The average income for Arabs is something liek 60-70K in the USA. But those in Europe are poor immigrants and refugees, they do not have the means that we do.

who are you kidding, the script for van goghs movie was written by a former muslim woman. its not lies, just the simple reality of the situation. and look all over the middle east if you want to see if religion is used to keep women down. its not a lie. stop being an apologist for scripture. and frankly theres many a anti woman verse in islam. if you can't even acknowledge this your devotion has made you completely blind to its faults. its not easily explained away as its the direct word of god through mohammed. you have no wiggle room. the only way around it is to pretend its not there. to ignore parts of your religion, to become a liar, a bad muslim. sorry, thats the harsh reality without the politically correct nonsense. you've been dancing around the elephant in the room for far too long. like many a religious person.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali..a brave righteous woman
http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/2157/context/archive

Koran translation by N.J. Dawood, Penguin Classics.

Surah 4 - Women (Al Nisa) verse 34: "Men have authority over women
because God has made /the/ one superior to the other, and because
they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient.
They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them (hymen).
As for those from whom you fear disobediance, admonish them and send
them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you take no
further action against them. God is high, supreme."

Another translation:

"Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in
the husband's absence what God would have them guard (their vagina,
i.e. hymen). As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and
ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds, beat them;
but if they return in obedience, seek not against them means: for
God is Most High, Great above you all."




ccording to the Koran, for example, the fornicatress and the fornicator must be flogged a hundred stripes (The Light: 24.2). Those who are guilty of an 'indecency' must be 'confined until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.' (The Women, 4.15). 'Men are the maintainers of women' and 'good' women are obedient. Those that men fear 'desertion', can be admonished, confined and beaten' (The Women, 4.34). Wives are 'a tilth for you, so go into your tilth when you like' (The Cow, 2.223). Veiling is promoted in the Koran: 'O Prophet! Say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments' (The Clans, 33.59).

http://www.medusa2000.com/islammiddle.htm
Islam, Political Islam and Women in the Middle East
Maryam Namazie


The situation of women living in Islam-stricken societies and under Islamic laws is the outrage of the 21st century. Burqa-clad and veiled women and girls, beheadings, stoning to death, floggings, child sexual abuse in the name of marriage and sexual apartheid are only the most brutal and visible aspects of women's rightlessness and third class status in the Middle East.

This is Nothing but Islam.......


and lets not even get into rabid homophobia and antisemitism. stop defending what no rational person should be defending.

ownage...

funny how when this is brought up the two muslims in here dont even comment on it.

What can we tell you? Its written by Hirsi Ali..the same woman who wrote Theo's movie which is agreed to be all lies because he is just anti-religion. Enough said? No?

I'd rather read some actual research about Islam...not some random pages. You won't find any actual research on Islam because people realize after they start that it all makes sense, the only ones that actually do it are the ones who post lies like Hirsi Ali.

Show me some legit research then we'll talk.

I dont think it would matter, you have your head so far up allahs butt no amount of proof will sway you.

What? I'm just asking for a real research by a legitimate source about Islam and you resort to name calling and swearing....why? Does it anger you so much when people ask for proof?

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: mOeeOm

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: mOeeOm

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Originally posted by: magomago

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
I am sure that it happened in some places.

What lies did Theo Van Gogh have in his movie? My perception of it was that it was criticizing the culture and its manipulation of the religion.

He blames the reason why men act abusive to woman is because of Islam. The writing on Islamic verses on a woman's beaten back, women saying things such as "My husband beats me every night which i do not like, but because you say he controls me I thank you for every punch"...the list goes on. It falsely twists Quranic verses (and tweaks the translation slightly...and normally I don't see the problem since I can think of three Qurans translated each in english in his own way, but I doubt he is looking for linguistic objectivity) by taking them out of context so their real meaning can be understood, and it apparantly ignores it all.
Even the simplest things he lies abouts!!! NOTHING in Islam forces a daughter into marraige, and she herself has to consent to it!

He wants to bash on the immigrant culture that doesn't give woman freedom? That is fine and I'll applaud him. But he wants to say men are abusive BECAUSE of Islam...that is where he starts to spout bs.

Aimster. Arabs in the USA are "more intelligent" because those who come here usually have the MEANS to come because they have money and an eduction. The average income for Arabs is something liek 60-70K in the USA. But those in Europe are poor immigrants and refugees, they do not have the means that we do.

who are you kidding, the script for van goghs movie was written by a former muslim woman. its not lies, just the simple reality of the situation. and look all over the middle east if you want to see if religion is used to keep women down. its not a lie. stop being an apologist for scripture. and frankly theres many a anti woman verse in islam. if you can't even acknowledge this your devotion has made you completely blind to its faults. its not easily explained away as its the direct word of god through mohammed. you have no wiggle room. the only way around it is to pretend its not there. to ignore parts of your religion, to become a liar, a bad muslim. sorry, thats the harsh reality without the politically correct nonsense. you've been dancing around the elephant in the room for far too long. like many a religious person.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali..a brave righteous woman
http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/2157/context/archive

Koran translation by N.J. Dawood, Penguin Classics.

Surah 4 - Women (Al Nisa) verse 34: "Men have authority over women
because God has made /the/ one superior to the other, and because
they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient.
They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them (hymen).
As for those from whom you fear disobediance, admonish them and send
them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you take no
further action against them. God is high, supreme."

Another translation:

"Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in
the husband's absence what God would have them guard (their vagina,
i.e. hymen). As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and
ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds, beat them;
but if they return in obedience, seek not against them means: for
God is Most High, Great above you all."




ccording to the Koran, for example, the fornicatress and the fornicator must be flogged a hundred stripes (The Light: 24.2). Those who are guilty of an 'indecency' must be 'confined until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.' (The Women, 4.15). 'Men are the maintainers of women' and 'good' women are obedient. Those that men fear 'desertion', can be admonished, confined and beaten' (The Women, 4.34). Wives are 'a tilth for you, so go into your tilth when you like' (The Cow, 2.223). Veiling is promoted in the Koran: 'O Prophet! Say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments' (The Clans, 33.59).

http://www.medusa2000.com/islammiddle.htm
Islam, Political Islam and Women in the Middle East
Maryam Namazie


The situation of women living in Islam-stricken societies and under Islamic laws is the outrage of the 21st century. Burqa-clad and veiled women and girls, beheadings, stoning to death, floggings, child sexual abuse in the name of marriage and sexual apartheid are only the most brutal and visible aspects of women's rightlessness and third class status in the Middle East.

This is Nothing but Islam.......


and lets not even get into rabid homophobia and antisemitism. stop defending what no rational person should be defending.

ownage...

funny how when this is brought up the two muslims in here dont even comment on it.

What can we tell you? Its written by Hirsi Ali..the same woman who wrote Theo's movie which is agreed to be all lies because he is just anti-religion. Enough said? No?

I'd rather read some actual research about Islam...not some random pages. You won't find any actual research on Islam because people realize after they start that it all makes sense, the only ones that actually do it are the ones who post lies like Hirsi Ali.

Show me some legit research then we'll talk.

I dont think it would matter, you have your head so far up allahs butt no amount of proof will sway you.

What? I'm just asking for a real research by a legitimate source about Islam and you resort to name calling and swearing....why? Does it anger you so much when people ask for proof?

Namecalling and swearing? Is this part of your "if it offends Islam then it is a crime" line of thinking?

I am simply stating my opinion that I dont think any amount of proof will sway you.

 

[mOeeOm]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: mOeeOm

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: mOeeOm

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Originally posted by: magomago

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
I am sure that it happened in some places.

What lies did Theo Van Gogh have in his movie? My perception of it was that it was criticizing the culture and its manipulation of the religion.

He blames the reason why men act abusive to woman is because of Islam. The writing on Islamic verses on a woman's beaten back, women saying things such as "My husband beats me every night which i do not like, but because you say he controls me I thank you for every punch"...the list goes on. It falsely twists Quranic verses (and tweaks the translation slightly...and normally I don't see the problem since I can think of three Qurans translated each in english in his own way, but I doubt he is looking for linguistic objectivity) by taking them out of context so their real meaning can be understood, and it apparantly ignores it all.
Even the simplest things he lies abouts!!! NOTHING in Islam forces a daughter into marraige, and she herself has to consent to it!

He wants to bash on the immigrant culture that doesn't give woman freedom? That is fine and I'll applaud him. But he wants to say men are abusive BECAUSE of Islam...that is where he starts to spout bs.

Aimster. Arabs in the USA are "more intelligent" because those who come here usually have the MEANS to come because they have money and an eduction. The average income for Arabs is something liek 60-70K in the USA. But those in Europe are poor immigrants and refugees, they do not have the means that we do.

who are you kidding, the script for van goghs movie was written by a former muslim woman. its not lies, just the simple reality of the situation. and look all over the middle east if you want to see if religion is used to keep women down. its not a lie. stop being an apologist for scripture. and frankly theres many a anti woman verse in islam. if you can't even acknowledge this your devotion has made you completely blind to its faults. its not easily explained away as its the direct word of god through mohammed. you have no wiggle room. the only way around it is to pretend its not there. to ignore parts of your religion, to become a liar, a bad muslim. sorry, thats the harsh reality without the politically correct nonsense. you've been dancing around the elephant in the room for far too long. like many a religious person.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali..a brave righteous woman
http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/2157/context/archive

Koran translation by N.J. Dawood, Penguin Classics.

Surah 4 - Women (Al Nisa) verse 34: "Men have authority over women
because God has made /the/ one superior to the other, and because
they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient.
They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them (hymen).
As for those from whom you fear disobediance, admonish them and send
them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you take no
further action against them. God is high, supreme."

Another translation:

"Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in
the husband's absence what God would have them guard (their vagina,
i.e. hymen). As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and
ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds, beat them;
but if they return in obedience, seek not against them means: for
God is Most High, Great above you all."




ccording to the Koran, for example, the fornicatress and the fornicator must be flogged a hundred stripes (The Light: 24.2). Those who are guilty of an 'indecency' must be 'confined until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.' (The Women, 4.15). 'Men are the maintainers of women' and 'good' women are obedient. Those that men fear 'desertion', can be admonished, confined and beaten' (The Women, 4.34). Wives are 'a tilth for you, so go into your tilth when you like' (The Cow, 2.223). Veiling is promoted in the Koran: 'O Prophet! Say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments' (The Clans, 33.59).

http://www.medusa2000.com/islammiddle.htm
Islam, Political Islam and Women in the Middle East
Maryam Namazie


The situation of women living in Islam-stricken societies and under Islamic laws is the outrage of the 21st century. Burqa-clad and veiled women and girls, beheadings, stoning to death, floggings, child sexual abuse in the name of marriage and sexual apartheid are only the most brutal and visible aspects of women's rightlessness and third class status in the Middle East.

This is Nothing but Islam.......


and lets not even get into rabid homophobia and antisemitism. stop defending what no rational person should be defending.

ownage...

funny how when this is brought up the two muslims in here dont even comment on it.

What can we tell you? Its written by Hirsi Ali..the same woman who wrote Theo's movie which is agreed to be all lies because he is just anti-religion. Enough said? No?

I'd rather read some actual research about Islam...not some random pages. You won't find any actual research on Islam because people realize after they start that it all makes sense, the only ones that actually do it are the ones who post lies like Hirsi Ali.

Show me some legit research then we'll talk.

I dont think it would matter, you have your head so far up allahs butt no amount of proof will sway you.

What? I'm just asking for a real research by a legitimate source about Islam and you resort to name calling and swearing....why? Does it anger you so much when people ask for proof?

Namecalling and swearing? Is this part of your "if it offends Islam then it is a crime" line of thinking?

I am simply stating my opinion that I dont think any amount of proof will sway you.

''you have your head so far up allahs butt''

that is being nice right?

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: mOeeOm

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: mOeeOm

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: mOeeOm

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Originally posted by: magomago

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
I am sure that it happened in some places.

What lies did Theo Van Gogh have in his movie? My perception of it was that it was criticizing the culture and its manipulation of the religion.

He blames the reason why men act abusive to woman is because of Islam. The writing on Islamic verses on a woman's beaten back, women saying things such as "My husband beats me every night which i do not like, but because you say he controls me I thank you for every punch"...the list goes on. It falsely twists Quranic verses (and tweaks the translation slightly...and normally I don't see the problem since I can think of three Qurans translated each in english in his own way, but I doubt he is looking for linguistic objectivity) by taking them out of context so their real meaning can be understood, and it apparantly ignores it all.
Even the simplest things he lies abouts!!! NOTHING in Islam forces a daughter into marraige, and she herself has to consent to it!

He wants to bash on the immigrant culture that doesn't give woman freedom? That is fine and I'll applaud him. But he wants to say men are abusive BECAUSE of Islam...that is where he starts to spout bs.

Aimster. Arabs in the USA are "more intelligent" because those who come here usually have the MEANS to come because they have money and an eduction. The average income for Arabs is something liek 60-70K in the USA. But those in Europe are poor immigrants and refugees, they do not have the means that we do.

who are you kidding, the script for van goghs movie was written by a former muslim woman. its not lies, just the simple reality of the situation. and look all over the middle east if you want to see if religion is used to keep women down. its not a lie. stop being an apologist for scripture. and frankly theres many a anti woman verse in islam. if you can't even acknowledge this your devotion has made you completely blind to its faults. its not easily explained away as its the direct word of god through mohammed. you have no wiggle room. the only way around it is to pretend its not there. to ignore parts of your religion, to become a liar, a bad muslim. sorry, thats the harsh reality without the politically correct nonsense. you've been dancing around the elephant in the room for far too long. like many a religious person.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali..a brave righteous woman
http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/2157/context/archive

Koran translation by N.J. Dawood, Penguin Classics.

Surah 4 - Women (Al Nisa) verse 34: "Men have authority over women
because God has made /the/ one superior to the other, and because
they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient.
They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them (hymen).
As for those from whom you fear disobediance, admonish them and send
them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you take no
further action against them. God is high, supreme."

Another translation:

"Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in
the husband's absence what God would have them guard (their vagina,
i.e. hymen). As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and
ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds, beat them;
but if they return in obedience, seek not against them means: for
God is Most High, Great above you all."




ccording to the Koran, for example, the fornicatress and the fornicator must be flogged a hundred stripes (The Light: 24.2). Those who are guilty of an 'indecency' must be 'confined until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.' (The Women, 4.15). 'Men are the maintainers of women' and 'good' women are obedient. Those that men fear 'desertion', can be admonished, confined and beaten' (The Women, 4.34). Wives are 'a tilth for you, so go into your tilth when you like' (The Cow, 2.223). Veiling is promoted in the Koran: 'O Prophet! Say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments' (The Clans, 33.59).

http://www.medusa2000.com/islammiddle.htm
Islam, Political Islam and Women in the Middle East
Maryam Namazie


The situation of women living in Islam-stricken societies and under Islamic laws is the outrage of the 21st century. Burqa-clad and veiled women and girls, beheadings, stoning to death, floggings, child sexual abuse in the name of marriage and sexual apartheid are only the most brutal and visible aspects of women's rightlessness and third class status in the Middle East.

This is Nothing but Islam.......


and lets not even get into rabid homophobia and antisemitism. stop defending what no rational person should be defending.

ownage...

funny how when this is brought up the two muslims in here dont even comment on it.

What can we tell you? Its written by Hirsi Ali..the same woman who wrote Theo's movie which is agreed to be all lies because he is just anti-religion. Enough said? No?

I'd rather read some actual research about Islam...not some random pages. You won't find any actual research on Islam because people realize after they start that it all makes sense, the only ones that actually do it are the ones who post lies like Hirsi Ali.

Show me some legit research then we'll talk.

I dont think it would matter, you have your head so far up allahs butt no amount of proof will sway you.

What? I'm just asking for a real research by a legitimate source about Islam and you resort to name calling and swearing....why? Does it anger you so much when people ask for proof?

Namecalling and swearing? Is this part of your "if it offends Islam then it is a crime" line of thinking?

I am simply stating my opinion that I dont think any amount of proof will sway you.

''you have your head so far up allahs butt''

that is being nice right?

Is that swearing or namecalling?

 

[mOeeOm]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: mOeeOm

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: mOeeOm

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: mOeeOm

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Originally posted by: magomago

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
I am sure that it happened in some places.

What lies did Theo Van Gogh have in his movie? My perception of it was that it was criticizing the culture and its manipulation of the religion.

He blames the reason why men act abusive to woman is because of Islam. The writing on Islamic verses on a woman's beaten back, women saying things such as "My husband beats me every night which i do not like, but because you say he controls me I thank you for every punch"...the list goes on. It falsely twists Quranic verses (and tweaks the translation slightly...and normally I don't see the problem since I can think of three Qurans translated each in english in his own way, but I doubt he is looking for linguistic objectivity) by taking them out of context so their real meaning can be understood, and it apparantly ignores it all.
Even the simplest things he lies abouts!!! NOTHING in Islam forces a daughter into marraige, and she herself has to consent to it!

He wants to bash on the immigrant culture that doesn't give woman freedom? That is fine and I'll applaud him. But he wants to say men are abusive BECAUSE of Islam...that is where he starts to spout bs.

Aimster. Arabs in the USA are "more intelligent" because those who come here usually have the MEANS to come because they have money and an eduction. The average income for Arabs is something liek 60-70K in the USA. But those in Europe are poor immigrants and refugees, they do not have the means that we do.

who are you kidding, the script for van goghs movie was written by a former muslim woman. its not lies, just the simple reality of the situation. and look all over the middle east if you want to see if religion is used to keep women down. its not a lie. stop being an apologist for scripture. and frankly theres many a anti woman verse in islam. if you can't even acknowledge this your devotion has made you completely blind to its faults. its not easily explained away as its the direct word of god through mohammed. you have no wiggle room. the only way around it is to pretend its not there. to ignore parts of your religion, to become a liar, a bad muslim. sorry, thats the harsh reality without the politically correct nonsense. you've been dancing around the elephant in the room for far too long. like many a religious person.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali..a brave righteous woman
http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/2157/context/archive

Koran translation by N.J. Dawood, Penguin Classics.

Surah 4 - Women (Al Nisa) verse 34: "Men have authority over women
because God has made /the/ one superior to the other, and because
they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient.
They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them (hymen).
As for those from whom you fear disobediance, admonish them and send
them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you take no
further action against them. God is high, supreme."

Another translation:

"Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in
the husband's absence what God would have them guard (their vagina,
i.e. hymen). As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and
ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds, beat them;
but if they return in obedience, seek not against them means: for
God is Most High, Great above you all."




ccording to the Koran, for example, the fornicatress and the fornicator must be flogged a hundred stripes (The Light: 24.2). Those who are guilty of an 'indecency' must be 'confined until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.' (The Women, 4.15). 'Men are the maintainers of women' and 'good' women are obedient. Those that men fear 'desertion', can be admonished, confined and beaten' (The Women, 4.34). Wives are 'a tilth for you, so go into your tilth when you like' (The Cow, 2.223). Veiling is promoted in the Koran: 'O Prophet! Say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments' (The Clans, 33.59).

http://www.medusa2000.com/islammiddle.htm
Islam, Political Islam and Women in the Middle East
Maryam Namazie


The situation of women living in Islam-stricken societies and under Islamic laws is the outrage of the 21st century. Burqa-clad and veiled women and girls, beheadings, stoning to death, floggings, child sexual abuse in the name of marriage and sexual apartheid are only the most brutal and visible aspects of women's rightlessness and third class status in the Middle East.

This is Nothing but Islam.......


and lets not even get into rabid homophobia and antisemitism. stop defending what no rational person should be defending.

ownage...

funny how when this is brought up the two muslims in here dont even comment on it.

What can we tell you? Its written by Hirsi Ali..the same woman who wrote Theo's movie which is agreed to be all lies because he is just anti-religion. Enough said? No?

I'd rather read some actual research about Islam...not some random pages. You won't find any actual research on Islam because people realize after they start that it all makes sense, the only ones that actually do it are the ones who post lies like Hirsi Ali.

Show me some legit research then we'll talk.

I dont think it would matter, you have your head so far up allahs butt no amount of proof will sway you.

What? I'm just asking for a real research by a legitimate source about Islam and you resort to name calling and swearing....why? Does it anger you so much when people ask for proof?

Namecalling and swearing? Is this part of your "if it offends Islam then it is a crime" line of thinking?

I am simply stating my opinion that I dont think any amount of proof will sway you.

''you have your head so far up allahs butt''

that is being nice right?

Is that swearing or namecalling?

Yes, its bad language.

 

[1prophet]

Originally posted by: cumhail

Originally posted by: Astaroth33
My question is inspired by events such as the French riots, the murder of Theo van Gogh, and the thread on this page regarding the cartoon that depicted Islam in a negative light...
[snip]

Sorry, but I don't see much hope in getting an accurate, authentic, or even remotely representative "muslim viewpoint" (whatever that is) out of this thread, just as we wouldn't get any such christian or jewish or hindu or whatever viewpoint from a similarly posed question to members of other faiths. Beyond the fact that all of the above religions, and others, are broken into sects, factions, and schools of thoughts, and that the views and interpretations of one adherent may differ widely from anothers, lie three overarching facts that preclude any possibility of achieving the stated goal of this thread:

First, there is the fact that the number of posters who claim to be practicing muslims is so small that no representative sample could ever be claimed. You have two (sorry if I missed anyone) people, so far, who seem to already believe this fact.

Second, there is the fact that we have no means of evaluating the sincerity of anyone's claims, regarding their religions, or anything else. We have people swear up and down that they're independents or liberals or conservatives or christians or jews or muslims or whatever... yet whose every post makes it clear they are being less than forthcoming in sharing their views, their biases, etc.

And thirdly, there is the demonstrated fact that for every rational post, 10 more will be made for no other discernable purpose than to attack other people (on the forum or outside of it) and/or to get a reaction. No, I am not going to mention any names. But think about any issue, and divide the forum's posters into two sides (yes, I know there are usually more than two sides... but stick with two). Would you be comfortable being represented by the views and posts of every P&N poster who falls more onto your side than other? I know I wouldn't.

That this thread so quickly degenerated into what it has become isn't surprising. What would be surprising would be if someone thought it wouldn't.

cumhail

This was written by the Paul the Apostle during the time of the Roman occupation of Judea and the rest of the countries under Roman rule. He is telling the early Christians to respect the laws and rules of the countries they were living in for the authority in all governments comes from God and He alone will hold them accountable for their acts.




1 Timothy 2
1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;




Romans 13
1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

5Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

6For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

7Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

 

[cumhail]

Originally posted by: 1prophet

Originally posted by: cumhail

Originally posted by: Astaroth33
My question is inspired by events such as the French riots, the murder of Theo van Gogh, and the thread on this page regarding the cartoon that depicted Islam in a negative light...
[snip]

Sorry, but I don't see much hope in getting an accurate, authentic, or even remotely representative "muslim viewpoint" (whatever that is) out of this thread, just as we wouldn't get any such christian or jewish or hindu or whatever viewpoint from a similarly posed question to members of other faiths. Beyond the fact that all of the above religions, and others, are broken into sects, factions, and schools of thoughts, and that the views and interpretations of one adherent may differ widely from anothers, lie three overarching facts that preclude any possibility of achieving the stated goal of this thread:

First, there is the fact that the number of posters who claim to be practicing muslims is so small that no representative sample could ever be claimed. You have two (sorry if I missed anyone) people, so far, who seem to already believe this fact.

Second, there is the fact that we have no means of evaluating the sincerity of anyone's claims, regarding their religions, or anything else. We have people swear up and down that they're independents or liberals or conservatives or christians or jews or muslims or whatever... yet whose every post makes it clear they are being less than forthcoming in sharing their views, their biases, etc.

And thirdly, there is the demonstrated fact that for every rational post, 10 more will be made for no other discernable purpose than to attack other people (on the forum or outside of it) and/or to get a reaction. No, I am not going to mention any names. But think about any issue, and divide the forum's posters into two sides (yes, I know there are usually more than two sides... but stick with two). Would you be comfortable being represented by the views and posts of every P&N poster who falls more onto your side than other? I know I wouldn't.

That this thread so quickly degenerated into what it has become isn't surprising. What would be surprising would be if someone thought it wouldn't.

cumhail

This was written by the Paul the Apostle during the time of the Roman occupation of Judea and the rest of the countries under Roman rule. He is telling the early Christians to respect the laws and rules of the countries they were living in for the authority in all governments comes from God and He alone will hold them accountable for their acts.




1 Timothy 2
1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;




Romans 13
1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

5Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

6For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

7Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

Umm... ok? And what does any of that have to do with what I wrote in my post?

cumhail

 

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: mOeeOm

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Originally posted by: magomago

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
I am sure that it happened in some places.

What lies did Theo Van Gogh have in his movie? My perception of it was that it was criticizing the culture and its manipulation of the religion.

He blames the reason why men act abusive to woman is because of Islam. The writing on Islamic verses on a woman's beaten back, women saying things such as "My husband beats me every night which i do not like, but because you say he controls me I thank you for every punch"...the list goes on. It falsely twists Quranic verses (and tweaks the translation slightly...and normally I don't see the problem since I can think of three Qurans translated each in english in his own way, but I doubt he is looking for linguistic objectivity) by taking them out of context so their real meaning can be understood, and it apparantly ignores it all.
Even the simplest things he lies abouts!!! NOTHING in Islam forces a daughter into marraige, and she herself has to consent to it!

He wants to bash on the immigrant culture that doesn't give woman freedom? That is fine and I'll applaud him. But he wants to say men are abusive BECAUSE of Islam...that is where he starts to spout bs.

Aimster. Arabs in the USA are "more intelligent" because those who come here usually have the MEANS to come because they have money and an eduction. The average income for Arabs is something liek 60-70K in the USA. But those in Europe are poor immigrants and refugees, they do not have the means that we do.

who are you kidding, the script for van goghs movie was written by a former muslim woman. its not lies, just the simple reality of the situation. and look all over the middle east if you want to see if religion is used to keep women down. its not a lie. stop being an apologist for scripture. and frankly theres many a anti woman verse in islam. if you can't even acknowledge this your devotion has made you completely blind to its faults. its not easily explained away as its the direct word of god through mohammed. you have no wiggle room. the only way around it is to pretend its not there. to ignore parts of your religion, to become a liar, a bad muslim. sorry, thats the harsh reality without the politically correct nonsense. you've been dancing around the elephant in the room for far too long. like many a religious person.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali..a brave righteous woman
http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/2157/context/archive

Koran translation by N.J. Dawood, Penguin Classics.

Surah 4 - Women (Al Nisa) verse 34: "Men have authority over women
because God has made /the/ one superior to the other, and because
they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient.
They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them (hymen).
As for those from whom you fear disobediance, admonish them and send
them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you take no
further action against them. God is high, supreme."

Another translation:

"Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in
the husband's absence what God would have them guard (their vagina,
i.e. hymen). As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and
ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds, beat them;
but if they return in obedience, seek not against them means: for
God is Most High, Great above you all."




ccording to the Koran, for example, the fornicatress and the fornicator must be flogged a hundred stripes (The Light: 24.2). Those who are guilty of an 'indecency' must be 'confined until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.' (The Women, 4.15). 'Men are the maintainers of women' and 'good' women are obedient. Those that men fear 'desertion', can be admonished, confined and beaten' (The Women, 4.34). Wives are 'a tilth for you, so go into your tilth when you like' (The Cow, 2.223). Veiling is promoted in the Koran: 'O Prophet! Say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments' (The Clans, 33.59).

http://www.medusa2000.com/islammiddle.htm
Islam, Political Islam and Women in the Middle East
Maryam Namazie


The situation of women living in Islam-stricken societies and under Islamic laws is the outrage of the 21st century. Burqa-clad and veiled women and girls, beheadings, stoning to death, floggings, child sexual abuse in the name of marriage and sexual apartheid are only the most brutal and visible aspects of women's rightlessness and third class status in the Middle East.

This is Nothing but Islam.......


and lets not even get into rabid homophobia and antisemitism. stop defending what no rational person should be defending.

ownage...

funny how when this is brought up the two muslims in here dont even comment on it.

What can we tell you? Its written by Hirsi Ali..the same woman who wrote Theo's movie which is agreed to be all lies because he is just anti-religion. Enough said? No?

I'd rather read some actual research about Islam...not some random pages. You won't find any actual research on Islam because people realize after they start that it all makes sense, the only ones that actually do it are the ones who post lies like Hirsi Ali.

Show me some legit research then we'll talk.

The statements listed from the Koran are considered to be the literal word of God, and must be obeyed, right? If it is "being taken out of context" like all of you muslims like to say, then how else is it supposed to be taken? For example:

Koran translation by N.J. Dawood, Penguin Classics.

Surah 4 - Women (Al Nisa) verse 34: "Men have authority over women
because God has made /the/ one superior to the other, and because
they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient.
They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them (hymen).
As for those from whom you fear disobediance, admonish them and send
them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you take no
further action against them. God is high, supreme."

That seems to be pretty cut and dried to me. If you have another point of view on this, then please enlighten us.

 

[1prophet]

Originally posted by: cumhail

Originally posted by: 1prophet

Originally posted by: cumhail

Originally posted by: Astaroth33
My question is inspired by events such as the French riots, the murder of Theo van Gogh, and the thread on this page regarding the cartoon that depicted Islam in a negative light...
[snip]

Sorry, but I don't see much hope in getting an accurate, authentic, or even remotely representative "muslim viewpoint" (whatever that is) out of this thread, just as we wouldn't get any such christian or jewish or hindu or whatever viewpoint from a similarly posed question to members of other faiths. Beyond the fact that all of the above religions, and others, are broken into sects, factions, and schools of thoughts, and that the views and interpretations of one adherent may differ widely from anothers, lie three overarching facts that preclude any possibility of achieving the stated goal of this thread:

First, there is the fact that the number of posters who claim to be practicing muslims is so small that no representative sample could ever be claimed. You have two (sorry if I missed anyone) people, so far, who seem to already believe this fact.

Second, there is the fact that we have no means of evaluating the sincerity of anyone's claims, regarding their religions, or anything else. We have people swear up and down that they're independents or liberals or conservatives or christians or jews or muslims or whatever... yet whose every post makes it clear they are being less than forthcoming in sharing their views, their biases, etc.

And thirdly, there is the demonstrated fact that for every rational post, 10 more will be made for no other discernable purpose than to attack other people (on the forum or outside of it) and/or to get a reaction. No, I am not going to mention any names. But think about any issue, and divide the forum's posters into two sides (yes, I know there are usually more than two sides... but stick with two). Would you be comfortable being represented by the views and posts of every P&N poster who falls more onto your side than other? I know I wouldn't.

That this thread so quickly degenerated into what it has become isn't surprising. What would be surprising would be if someone thought it wouldn't.

cumhail

This was written by the Paul the Apostle during the time of the Roman occupation of Judea and the rest of the countries under Roman rule. He is telling the early Christians to respect the laws and rules of the countries they were living in for the authority in all governments comes from God and He alone will hold them accountable for their acts.




1 Timothy 2
1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;




Romans 13
1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

5Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

6For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

7Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

Umm... ok? And what does any of that have to do with what I wrote in my post?

cumhail

Just a different viewpoint, no offense intended to your post.

 

[cumhail]

Oh none taken. Was just trying to understand, since it quoted my post is all .

cumhail

 

[Deleted member 4644]

Originally posted by: mOeeOm

Originally posted by: magomago

Originally posted by: mOeeOm
You sound like a Muslim....if not, sorry, but if so, then...what are you doing? You MUST follow the Quran to the letter. We are commanded by God to punish those who spread lies about Islam, you can't pick and choose what you wanna follow, regardless of the time or place you live in. And yes before you kill them, you have to be just in it,

Well if you have been paying attention to any of my posts the past few...MONTHS ,you would know that I am

See now I agree with you 100%.

But here is the problem: in today's world if you kill someone because they spread false information about Islam, that only spreads MORE lies and MORE problems.
Theo Van Gogh (or however you spelled it) dies, and then people assume that his movie is the truth and what he said was correct.
In today's world, to "kill" someone means to attack them via other means. Protest loudly about the inaccuries, publish papers that show where he made the wrong assumptions, get on talk shows and say how he is lying, use every legal tool you have to make it apparant to everyone that he is spreading lies. Hell, even follow the "American Way" and sue them!
There are MANY alternatives that can easily shut down those who are providing false information.

By killing them, you become the enemy of God because you are the one helping to spread false information, by making people beleive "I can't beleive a Muslim killed him...he was probably onto something!"

Don't worry though, I won't kill you ya welady~ I will take my time and patiently speak out against this, to correct the lies you are helping to spread. Inshallah you will realize how your actions only help to spread more lies....

Gotta follow Quran to the letter Can't start doing things differently. And no it doesn't increase spreading of lies...once the liars are made examples of, the rest will cower away. You don't see 1000s of people trying to pull off what theo has attempted do you? the ones who do, do it in complete hiding.

mOeeOm, Your way of thinking will lead to global religious war and the eventual nuclear destruction of Washington DC, Mecca, and Medina. Will Allah be happy then?

 

[RabidMongoose]

mOeeOm, Your way of thinking will lead to global religious war and the eventual nuclear destruction of Washington DC, Mecca, and Medina. Will Allah be happy then?

The destruction of one of the worst cities to ever exist in today's time - Mecca - might actually be a good thing. It is the ultimate symbol of discrimination.