Criticizing Israel and its government is not Anti Semetic. Cool Variable was talking of "Jews" and agreeing with Nazi ideals of isolating Jews. That seems pretty anti Semetic to me.
Criticizing Israel and its government is not Anti Semetic. Cool Variable was talking of "Jews" and agreeing with Nazi ideals of isolating Jews. That seems pretty anti Semetic to me.
Can't think of a worst bunch of fisks as the Arafat ilk, CPA.
The great question is, what does it take to get justice in the world. How long and to what extent must human misery endure. The same question applies to Saddam, I think.
The great question is, what does it take to get justice in the world. How long and to what extent must human misery endure. The same question applies to Saddam, I think.
Justint, I may have mistakenly assumed that he was comparing the bantustanning of palistinians to putting the Jews on an island. It's the same thing, no. I figured he was saying both would be equally wrong.
I think the people with the power and some life have an unequal and heaver burdon to insure that those who don't have power get a break. I think the Israeli government has made life intollerable for the Palistinians, and if the rolls were reversed the Israelis would be sending their children into Palistine as suicide bombers. We are all the same. You may blame the culture, but who made the culture. It is evil to take away all hope. When there is no hope for life there will be a wish for death, everybodies death.
Ok that makes sense, but you are going to get flamed by some people on the board. FOR THE RECORD: 1 100% Agree with this post of Moonbeams. (and I understand it)
ThePresence
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I was referring to this:
Why no Endloesung for Jews? (The idea of the Nazis to round up all jews and imprison them all on the island of madagaskar might have been a good idea after all!)
If that's not anti-semitic in your eyes Moonbeam, than perhaps some lens cleaner solution is in order.
ThePresence
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Originally posted by: Ornery
"What does Sharon want??"
Um, to NOT be attacked?
Tsk, Tsk. Shhhh, saying things like that is frowned upon.
The Arabs brought themesleves into their predicament by refusing to live peacefully with Israel.
I get sick and tired of these people whining about the consequences of their actions.
Yes presence but what you quoted was preceded by this:
"So it is okay to talk of a final solution for the arabs but not for jews?"
That gave me the impression that he was refering to the irony of a two way street, good for the goose good for the gander... etc.
It's anti-Semetic on it's face but not in implication, I thought. But I got enough trouble trying to make myself clear without having to defend somebody else. My feeling is that the Israeli government has pursued a policy to demean, belittle, and destroy the Palistinian psyche by legal means bu passing and enforcing laws that crush rather than bring justice. That doesn't mean I want to see them blown up by children. I say this because I wish people to see that what they do comes back to haunt them. You can't properly love yourself if you hate others because you hate will kill you to by reflection. The tremendous crime committed by the Nazis caused a lot of hatred and, in my opinion, a lot of it fell on the Palistinians who are now returning the complement. Doesn't mean that anybody was a saint to begin with. It does mean that great hatred will require tremendous moral courage on both sides to heal. To be the best at the hate game you need to loose your soul.
"So it is okay to talk of a final solution for the arabs but not for jews?"
That gave me the impression that he was refering to the irony of a two way street, good for the goose good for the gander... etc.
It's anti-Semetic on it's face but not in implication, I thought. But I got enough trouble trying to make myself clear without having to defend somebody else.
My feeling is that the Israeli government has pursued a policy to demean, belittle, and destroy the Palistinian psyche by legal means bu passing and enforcing laws that crush rather than bring justice. That doesn't mean I want to see them blown up by children. I say this because I wish people to see that what they do comes back to haunt them. You can't properly love yourself if you hate others because you hate will kill you to by reflection. The tremendous crime committed by the Nazis caused a lot of hatred and, in my opinion, a lot of it fell on the Palistinians who are now returning the complement. Doesn't mean that anybody was a saint to begin with. It does mean that great hatred will require tremendous moral courage on both sides to heal. To be the best at the hate game you need to loose your soul.It's called effective deterrence.
You convince your enemies that violence will not get them anything.
My post ment exactly what Moonbeam read from it.
And all the others are Anti-Semites for hating the Arabs/Palestinians!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(All the jews and all the arabs are semites. not only the jews! you idiots!)
And all the others are Anti-Semites for hating the Arabs/Palestinians!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(All the jews and all the arabs are semites. not only the jews! you idiots!)
i think sharon just wants himself and his country to live in peace.
but those palestinians keep on getting in the way. they're a threat to the destiny of israel. those terrorists with their claims that somehow the land that is now israel (which used to be called palestine) is somehow their land. crazy palestinians. they should be deported to palestine. why cant those palestinians just understand that jews have a www.BIRTHRIGHTisrael.com to settle in israel irrespective of who is already living and fighting to survive there. roll;
"your adventure, your birthright, OUR GIFT" but who's paying the cost?
but those palestinians keep on getting in the way. they're a threat to the destiny of israel. those terrorists with their claims that somehow the land that is now israel (which used to be called palestine) is somehow their land. crazy palestinians. they should be deported to palestine. why cant those palestinians just understand that jews have a www.BIRTHRIGHTisrael.com to settle in israel irrespective of who is already living and fighting to survive there. roll;
"your adventure, your birthright, OUR GIFT" but who's paying the cost?
ThePresence
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ThePresence
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Agreed.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Why would it be their land? Because it was called Palestine? It was British land, but they couldn't stand the heat. Wait! It wasn't British land! They won it in a war! Land won in war doesn't count as your own, right?
Agreed, in most cases.
Now you're starting to sound like Moonbeam (not a good thing).
Didn't check the site, but there are fanatics and nutcases in every walk of life. Shouldn't reflect on the group as a whole.
Who? Fighting to survive there? HUH? Who? The British? The Jordanians? The Turks?
Vernor:
Quote
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[His goal, he said, "was to create in the Arabs a psychology of defeat, to beat them every time and to beat them so decisively that they would develop the conviction that they would never win."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's called effective deterrence.
You convince your enemies that violence will not get them anything.
--------------------------
Sorry to say Vernor, but you don't think at all. You convince your enemies that violence will not get them anything? Really? And how do you convince them of this? By violence of course. AHAHAHAHAHAHA
You just showed me exactly how effective violence is and I will devote the rest of my life making you eat your lesson. Nice work. There can't be a bigger lesson in human stupidity or can there?
Quote
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[His goal, he said, "was to create in the Arabs a psychology of defeat, to beat them every time and to beat them so decisively that they would develop the conviction that they would never win."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's called effective deterrence.
You convince your enemies that violence will not get them anything.
--------------------------
Sorry to say Vernor, but you don't think at all. You convince your enemies that violence will not get them anything? Really? And how do you convince them of this? By violence of course. AHAHAHAHAHAHA
You just showed me exactly how effective violence is and I will devote the rest of my life making you eat your lesson. Nice work. There can't be a bigger lesson in human stupidity or can there?
-those terrorists with their claims that somehow the land that is now israel (which used to be called palestine) is somehow their land. [/quote]Why would it be their land? Because it was called Palestine? It was British land, but they couldn't stand the heat. Wait! It wasn't British land!
NO its their land because theyve been living on it for thousands of years while the same cannot be said of 90% of the jews now living in israel.
------
-They won it in a war! Land won in war doesn't count as your own, right?
you're right land won in a war does not count. if you believe it does, does that mean if someone robs your house in kicks you out, he can gain possession of your house and its all ok?
------
crazy palestinians.
-Agreed, in most cases.
when people want to disregard the issue and motivations they start calling each other crazy. thats what i was demonstrating in my sarcasm; you seemed to have proven the point.
------
they should be deported to palestine.
-Now you're starting to sound like Moonbeam.
yea, like that argument is gonna work. stick to the issue.
------
irrespective of who is already living and fighting to survive there. roll;
-Who? Fighting to survive there? HUH? Who? The British? The Jordanians? The Turks?
you forgot to mention the palestinians. you know? those arabs living there and who make up the majority of the non jewish people there. stop acting like palestinians dont exist. thats f'ed up.
------
why cant those palestinians just understand that jews have a www.BIRTHRIGHTisrael.com to settle in israel
Didn't check the site, but there are fanatics and nutcases in every walk of life. Shouldn't reflect on the group as a whole
you're right. but the problem is the 'birthright' concept is in no way marginally supported in israel. the concept is necessary for israel to continue being a JEWISH state. otherwise the palestinians could all come back in and then democratically vote israel out of being a jewish state.
------
i think i recall reading somewhere that you're jewish or israeli.
i'd like to know if you think your political views are representative of the majority opinion (or large minority).
also, do you hold the view that there is no such thing as a palestinian? e.g. a palestinian is just an arab that used to live in israel.
if you are israeli do you hold dual citizenship? e.g. american and israeli citizenship.
also i'd like to know - if you are jewish - if you believe that somehow being jewish skews your impartiality on the whole handle?
do you believe that a palestinian living in jordan has the right to return to and settle in jerusalem?
do you believe that a jew living in new york has the right to immigrate to and settle in jerusalem?
NO its their land because theyve been living on it for thousands of years while the same cannot be said of 90% of the jews now living in israel.
------
-They won it in a war! Land won in war doesn't count as your own, right?
you're right land won in a war does not count. if you believe it does, does that mean if someone robs your house in kicks you out, he can gain possession of your house and its all ok?
------
crazy palestinians.
-Agreed, in most cases.
when people want to disregard the issue and motivations they start calling each other crazy. thats what i was demonstrating in my sarcasm; you seemed to have proven the point.
------
they should be deported to palestine.
-Now you're starting to sound like Moonbeam.
yea, like that argument is gonna work. stick to the issue.
------
irrespective of who is already living and fighting to survive there. roll;
-Who? Fighting to survive there? HUH? Who? The British? The Jordanians? The Turks?
you forgot to mention the palestinians. you know? those arabs living there and who make up the majority of the non jewish people there. stop acting like palestinians dont exist. thats f'ed up.
------
why cant those palestinians just understand that jews have a www.BIRTHRIGHTisrael.com to settle in israel
Didn't check the site, but there are fanatics and nutcases in every walk of life. Shouldn't reflect on the group as a whole
you're right. but the problem is the 'birthright' concept is in no way marginally supported in israel. the concept is necessary for israel to continue being a JEWISH state. otherwise the palestinians could all come back in and then democratically vote israel out of being a jewish state.
------
i think i recall reading somewhere that you're jewish or israeli.
i'd like to know if you think your political views are representative of the majority opinion (or large minority).
also, do you hold the view that there is no such thing as a palestinian? e.g. a palestinian is just an arab that used to live in israel.
if you are israeli do you hold dual citizenship? e.g. american and israeli citizenship.
also i'd like to know - if you are jewish - if you believe that somehow being jewish skews your impartiality on the whole handle?
do you believe that a palestinian living in jordan has the right to return to and settle in jerusalem?
do you believe that a jew living in new york has the right to immigrate to and settle in jerusalem?
ThePresence
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The same cannot be said of 90% of the Arab population. Ask Jordan/Egypt.
I was talking about the British, let's not take anything out of context. But if that's true, then the US is rightfully British property, right? Let's bomb NYC and Washington until they give it back.They won it in a war! Land won in war doesn't count as your own, right?
you're right land won in a war does not count. if you believe it does, does that mean if someone robs your house in kicks you out, he can gain possession of your house and its all ok?
I am fully aware of your sarcasm.
OK, fine. They should be deported to Palestine. But that makes no sense, kinda like alot of Moonbeam's posts.
Palestinians didn't exist untill a few years ago. Most of those who call themselves Palestinians were living in other countries (mainly Jordan, Egypt and Lebanon) at the time the State of Israel came into being.
By leaving them out, I'm trying to show THAT THEY DIDN'T OWN THE LAND EITHER, and never did. They were ruled by the British etc. Do I have to give another history lesson?
I'll have to check out the website. You're right, that is the reason that the birthright thing exists. Every country makes laws to protect itself. However, there are Israeli Arab parties, and Israeli arabs can vote if they choose to. However, most of them don't, because voting in an Israeli election legitimizes the Israeli government in their eyes.
I'm Jewish, and American. However, I lived in Israel for a number of years, and served in the Mishmar HaGevul (Border patrol). I've seen and lived these things, that to most are skewed stories in publications seeking to further political agendas by twisting facts.
I think the results of the recent Israeli elections show what the country believes. Aside from Likud's powerful showing, Shinui (A centrist, Anti-Religious party) had a strong showing too, and is now a force to be reckoned with.
The word Palestinian is a recent creation. They may of be Egyptian, Jordanian, Lebanese or Syrian descent, but yet they all classify themselves as Palestinian. The ones that were living there before, were British subjects. Before that they were Turkish subjects. They NEVER ruled the land, hence, they are not "Palestinian".
I am not Israeli.
Perhaps, but then again, I've seen it with my own eyes, and I've lived it. THAT more than anything skews my impartiality. It's tough to be impartial when you see the opposite.
Yes, they can both move to Israel. However, there are no Palestinians in Jordan. There are Jordanians. There may be descendants of Turkish subjects, etc.
Birthright israel is, IMO (having gone on it), a good concept whose title can, again IMO, lead to misconceptions...
The program can best be summed up as "finding your jewish identity"; it involves tours of masada, the holocaust meuseum, the western wall, and kibbutzim; as well as discussions and debates on current events such as water/land distribution & control. It's a chance to study the israeli and jewish culture and history (for that matter, it's a great chance to learn and discuss the differences between being an israeli and a jew, especially given the wide range of jewish beliefs held).
I would state (and this is NOT to compare with or belittle other beliefs) that jews in general have a strong sense of community (i.e. "member of the tribe"), and this program is meant to grab those who have not yet recognized or acted on the fact that, as jews, they have that community/shared culture-hence the name "birthright", implying that you are finding yourself as what you are by birth-a jew. (note that the program is only open to jews who have not previously been on an organized trip to israel; i.e. spent a year learning there after high school, a trip after 10th grade-many go over that summer...etc)
Now, that said, I will grant that some people who attended the trip are of the mindset that jews can and should build settlements...and further, there are, needless to say, "fanatics" (as you attempted to brand birthright earlier) who feel that we should just kick the arabs out and expand...I would state the obvious in reply-that there are fanatics in every religion.
I personally went on birthright because I'd turned down the year of study in israel after high school (one of few in my class), but still felt that I would love to be in the land for a short time (no intentions of making aaliyah-moving there), I enjoyed the trip for what it was-a chance to meet fellow jews who were my age, and, more importantly, a chance to go to places such as the western wall, to be there...I got chills at certain locations, knowing the history there, but I certainly did not leave with the impression that the two sides couldn't live in peace without one side killing or expelling all of the other.
my point in this post, after all that, is that yes, there are groups that make the point that I believe you are trying to make-but you shouldn't point at a program like birthright as one of them...it is NOT a "hey, let's all move to israel and kick the arabs out" brainwashing session...if you wish to make that point go find another website-i'm sure they're out there
(at those who hold that opinion)
The program can best be summed up as "finding your jewish identity"; it involves tours of masada, the holocaust meuseum, the western wall, and kibbutzim; as well as discussions and debates on current events such as water/land distribution & control. It's a chance to study the israeli and jewish culture and history (for that matter, it's a great chance to learn and discuss the differences between being an israeli and a jew, especially given the wide range of jewish beliefs held).
I would state (and this is NOT to compare with or belittle other beliefs) that jews in general have a strong sense of community (i.e. "member of the tribe"), and this program is meant to grab those who have not yet recognized or acted on the fact that, as jews, they have that community/shared culture-hence the name "birthright", implying that you are finding yourself as what you are by birth-a jew. (note that the program is only open to jews who have not previously been on an organized trip to israel; i.e. spent a year learning there after high school, a trip after 10th grade-many go over that summer...etc)
Now, that said, I will grant that some people who attended the trip are of the mindset that jews can and should build settlements...and further, there are, needless to say, "fanatics" (as you attempted to brand birthright earlier) who feel that we should just kick the arabs out and expand...I would state the obvious in reply-that there are fanatics in every religion.
I personally went on birthright because I'd turned down the year of study in israel after high school (one of few in my class), but still felt that I would love to be in the land for a short time (no intentions of making aaliyah-moving there), I enjoyed the trip for what it was-a chance to meet fellow jews who were my age, and, more importantly, a chance to go to places such as the western wall, to be there...I got chills at certain locations, knowing the history there, but I certainly did not leave with the impression that the two sides couldn't live in peace without one side killing or expelling all of the other.
my point in this post, after all that, is that yes, there are groups that make the point that I believe you are trying to make-but you shouldn't point at a program like birthright as one of them...it is NOT a "hey, let's all move to israel and kick the arabs out" brainwashing session...if you wish to make that point go find another website-i'm sure they're out there
presence,
for someone who says "there are no palestinians in jordan" and that "most of the arabs living in israel, west bank, and gaza are from egypt or some arab country" and "if you dont rule the land, you arent a people" you are not in a position to give history lessons.
you have not engaged the issue of the palestinian people:
i posited that as a matter of fact palestinains have been living in that region for hundreds if not thousands of years. (see king crane commission for early 20th century census of greater syria/palestine/jordan circa 1919?) and thus they have a claim and right to the land.
you're response was
1. "they were governed by the imperialist british during the twentieth century so the land doesnt belong to them." that is a counter intuitive argument in itself that disregards universally accepted just concepts of self-determination. but if you want to go down that route,
what about the 19th, 18th, 17th, 16th... centuries? are you going to match up imperialist conquerors with the conquered indigenous population to prove that the land belongs to no one? and if you bring native american indians into the argument, will you acknowledge that european colonization of the americas was an unjust brutal tragedy to their people and civilization? if so will you extend such an analogy to the indigenous palestinian people and thus the successful conquering 'israelis'?
2. you discount the palestinian claim via various routes. how do you go about legitimizing the israeli claim? is it as simple as saying they've migrated there in large numbers beginning a hundred some years ago and then militarily conquered the land - so now its theirs? or am i missing something?
im curious to find WHERE you have read that most of the so called palestinians living in israel and the occupied territories immigated there from arab countries within the past fifty years. in my middle eastern studies at ucla and the texts that i read there (albert hourani, charles smith, lapidus, hodgson, burke, barnett, etc) indicate such statements to be complete hogwash.
i do not believe that we should bomb washington d.c. and hand back america to a shrinking native american indian population but i do believe that in 1831 (fifty five years after us declartion of independence) when there was still a sizable native american indian population, americans (e.g. colonialists) should have treated such an indigenous population with a lot more respect and dignity instead of rolling through them via manifest destiny and more powerful guns just because they were able to. today is fifty five years after the israeli declartion of independence; certainly i think such an analogy is on point and thus palestinians should get some damn respect and dignity.
finally, i do not believe that your delegitimization of palestinian claims and legitimization of israeli claims (via 'the ruling' concept) to the land are representative of the average israeli supporter. your claims are just too easy to hack through and disregard.
im not gonna offer you a history lesson cause im no historian, but if you or any body else want to read a good text of where i get some of my facts and conceptions of whats going on over there, try charles smith's Palestine and the Arab Israeli Conflict. it is a detailed, comprehensive and well documented piece of work.
oh and presence, just for clarification the "deport them to palestine" was also meant to draw out the absurd view that there is no palestine. something which you have more or less written above.
peace out.
for someone who says "there are no palestinians in jordan" and that "most of the arabs living in israel, west bank, and gaza are from egypt or some arab country" and "if you dont rule the land, you arent a people" you are not in a position to give history lessons.
you have not engaged the issue of the palestinian people:
i posited that as a matter of fact palestinains have been living in that region for hundreds if not thousands of years. (see king crane commission for early 20th century census of greater syria/palestine/jordan circa 1919?) and thus they have a claim and right to the land.
you're response was
1. "they were governed by the imperialist british during the twentieth century so the land doesnt belong to them." that is a counter intuitive argument in itself that disregards universally accepted just concepts of self-determination. but if you want to go down that route,
what about the 19th, 18th, 17th, 16th... centuries? are you going to match up imperialist conquerors with the conquered indigenous population to prove that the land belongs to no one? and if you bring native american indians into the argument, will you acknowledge that european colonization of the americas was an unjust brutal tragedy to their people and civilization? if so will you extend such an analogy to the indigenous palestinian people and thus the successful conquering 'israelis'?
2. you discount the palestinian claim via various routes. how do you go about legitimizing the israeli claim? is it as simple as saying they've migrated there in large numbers beginning a hundred some years ago and then militarily conquered the land - so now its theirs? or am i missing something?
im curious to find WHERE you have read that most of the so called palestinians living in israel and the occupied territories immigated there from arab countries within the past fifty years. in my middle eastern studies at ucla and the texts that i read there (albert hourani, charles smith, lapidus, hodgson, burke, barnett, etc) indicate such statements to be complete hogwash.
i do not believe that we should bomb washington d.c. and hand back america to a shrinking native american indian population but i do believe that in 1831 (fifty five years after us declartion of independence) when there was still a sizable native american indian population, americans (e.g. colonialists) should have treated such an indigenous population with a lot more respect and dignity instead of rolling through them via manifest destiny and more powerful guns just because they were able to. today is fifty five years after the israeli declartion of independence; certainly i think such an analogy is on point and thus palestinians should get some damn respect and dignity.
finally, i do not believe that your delegitimization of palestinian claims and legitimization of israeli claims (via 'the ruling' concept) to the land are representative of the average israeli supporter. your claims are just too easy to hack through and disregard.
im not gonna offer you a history lesson cause im no historian, but if you or any body else want to read a good text of where i get some of my facts and conceptions of whats going on over there, try charles smith's Palestine and the Arab Israeli Conflict. it is a detailed, comprehensive and well documented piece of work.
oh and presence, just for clarification the "deport them to palestine" was also meant to draw out the absurd view that there is no palestine. something which you have more or less written above.
peace out.
thanks for your insight on the birthright program. i have a friend who went there i suppose "to find his jewish identity" but came back a very different person, politically. i do not mean to brand the birthright program as fanatic, and apologzie if i did, but rather my point was to address the concept as unfair.
your insight into the program is still very relevant, however. precisely because by being born a jew, whether in alaska or vietnam somehow you have a right to something that i dont. what is that right exactly?
i refer to such a concept to draw out what i believe the reason many hold israel to be an 'apartheid state.'
it is a JEWISH state by declaration. what does that mean?
whether technically, officially legally sanctioned or not, effectively, a jewish person - wherever he may be immigrating from (moscow, hamburg, new york, los angeles, etc.) can much more readily settle in israel proper or even the occupied territories than anyone else. and anyone else does not only include palestinianns, but im sure even a chinese-american person like myself.
once you acknowledge that palestinians exist as a people exiled or expelled from their land, the next thing to address is how they can go about returning. thus the palestinians seek the acknowledgemtn of their "right of return" it is something that no israeli government will concede exactly because it is a great threat to the population make-up of israel and thus its future as a jewish state.
thus the very problematic scenario is presented: a palestinain seeking to RETURN to his home in jerusalem after 50 years in exile is denied, while jewish americans or russian jews can readily visit or settle in israel.
yes, the jewish state is taking measures to protect itself. i believe that history demonstrates that such protection is more of a matter of israel defending itself against someone elses defense against israel's original aggression which parallels what americans of the founding fathers generation committed against the native indians.
violence breeds violence, yet everyone wants peace. neither the palestinians nor the israelis have peace - bombing and killing each other - but the israelis do have the land and the power thus leaving palestinians with no justice.
its nice to hear that you are not one of those jews who thinks that settling the occupied territories and kicking arabs out is A OK. you can correct me if im wrong, but the 'occupy and settle' opinion is not a slim minority nor a fringe view among israelis- unfortunately it is not too far from being an acceptable mere difference opinion via "oh everybody is entitled to their own opinion"
question for ya, Somethingwitty: the jewish identity you refer to above, do you mean as a culture, ethnicity or religion - because you alluded to fanaticism in relgion? if its a religion, as i understand it in jewish orthodoxy, a chinese guy like myself whose got no jewish blood cant convert. is that correct? if so, isnt being jew something that is via race only?
your insight into the program is still very relevant, however. precisely because by being born a jew, whether in alaska or vietnam somehow you have a right to something that i dont. what is that right exactly?
i refer to such a concept to draw out what i believe the reason many hold israel to be an 'apartheid state.'
it is a JEWISH state by declaration. what does that mean?
whether technically, officially legally sanctioned or not, effectively, a jewish person - wherever he may be immigrating from (moscow, hamburg, new york, los angeles, etc.) can much more readily settle in israel proper or even the occupied territories than anyone else. and anyone else does not only include palestinianns, but im sure even a chinese-american person like myself.
once you acknowledge that palestinians exist as a people exiled or expelled from their land, the next thing to address is how they can go about returning. thus the palestinians seek the acknowledgemtn of their "right of return" it is something that no israeli government will concede exactly because it is a great threat to the population make-up of israel and thus its future as a jewish state.
thus the very problematic scenario is presented: a palestinain seeking to RETURN to his home in jerusalem after 50 years in exile is denied, while jewish americans or russian jews can readily visit or settle in israel.
yes, the jewish state is taking measures to protect itself. i believe that history demonstrates that such protection is more of a matter of israel defending itself against someone elses defense against israel's original aggression which parallels what americans of the founding fathers generation committed against the native indians.
violence breeds violence, yet everyone wants peace. neither the palestinians nor the israelis have peace - bombing and killing each other - but the israelis do have the land and the power thus leaving palestinians with no justice.
its nice to hear that you are not one of those jews who thinks that settling the occupied territories and kicking arabs out is A OK. you can correct me if im wrong, but the 'occupy and settle' opinion is not a slim minority nor a fringe view among israelis- unfortunately it is not too far from being an acceptable mere difference opinion via "oh everybody is entitled to their own opinion"
Originally posted by: somethingwitty
Birthright israel is, IMO (having gone on it), a good concept whose title can, again IMO, lead to misconceptions...
The program can best be summed up as "finding your jewish identity"; it involves tours of masada, the holocaust meuseum, the western wall, and kibbutzim; as well as discussions and debates on current events such as water/land distribution & control. It's a chance to study the israeli and jewish culture and history (for that matter, it's a great chance to learn and discuss the differences between being an israeli and a jew, especially given the wide range of jewish beliefs held).
I would state (and this is NOT to compare with or belittle other beliefs) that jews in general have a strong sense of community (i.e. "member of the tribe"), and this program is meant to grab those who have not yet recognized or acted on the fact that, as jews, they have that community/shared culture-hence the name "birthright", implying that you are finding yourself as what you are by birth-a jew. (note that the program is only open to jews who have not previously been on an organized trip to israel; i.e. spent a year learning there after high school, a trip after 10th grade-many go over that summer...etc)
Now, that said, I will grant that some people who attended the trip are of the mindset that jews can and should build settlements...and further, there are, needless to say, "fanatics" (as you attempted to brand birthright earlier) who feel that we should just kick the arabs out and expand...I would state the obvious in reply-that there are fanatics in every religion.
I personally went on birthright because I'd turned down the year of study in israel after high school (one of few in my class), but still felt that I would love to be in the land for a short time (no intentions of making aaliyah-moving there), I enjoyed the trip for what it was-a chance to meet fellow jews who were my age, and, more importantly, a chance to go to places such as the western wall, to be there...I got chills at certain locations, knowing the history there, but I certainly did not leave with the impression that the two sides couldn't live in peace without one side killing or expelling all of the other.
my point in this post, after all that, is that yes, there are groups that make the point that I believe you are trying to make-but you shouldn't point at a program like birthright as one of them...it is NOT a "hey, let's all move to israel and kick the arabs out" brainwashing session...if you wish to make that point go find another website-i'm sure they're out there(at those who hold that opinion)
question for ya, Somethingwitty: the jewish identity you refer to above, do you mean as a culture, ethnicity or religion - because you alluded to fanaticism in relgion? if its a religion, as i understand it in jewish orthodoxy, a chinese guy like myself whose got no jewish blood cant convert. is that correct? if so, isnt being jew something that is via race only?
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