Question for Israel and the World: What does Sharon want??

justint

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I think this sumarizes Sharons views towards the Arabs better than anything else. The view he has held throughout his career. The view that led to the disaster in Lebanon, and the view that has sustained the war for the last 2 years.


"In his autobiography, "Warrior," Mr. Sharon wrote that while he was leading Israel's crack paratroopers in the 1950's, he decided that a policy of mere retaliation or deterrence was not enough to secure a haven for Jews in a region dominated by Arabs.

His goal, he said, "was to create in the Arabs a psychology of defeat, to beat them every time and to beat them so decisively that they would develop the conviction that they would never win."

In March of last year, Mr. Sharon said of Israel's response to Palestinian terrorism: "The aim is to increase the number of losses on the other side. Only after they've been battered will we be able to conduct talks."

That was before Israel began what has proved to be its biggest military offensive since, as defense minister, Mr. Sharon led the invasion of Lebanon in 1982."

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January 30, 2003
Puzzle for Israel: What Does Sharon Want?
By JAMES BENNET


EL AVIV, Jan. 29 ? As Prime Minister Ariel Sharon set about wooing potential coalition partners today, a familiar question recurred in Israeli political circles: what does Mr. Sharon want?

With his smashing victory over the left-of-center Labor Party, he is now in position to do precisely what his rightist Likud Party officially demands: to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

Mr. Sharon would now easily have majority support in Parliament to expel Yasir Arafat, the Palestinian leader ? a step he has said he wants to take ? and to accelerate the already rapid growth of Israeli settlements in the West Bank and Gaza. He is free to tighten the already harsh restrictions on the more than three million Palestinians who live there.

Yet today Mr. Sharon urgently appealed for the seemingly crippled Labor Party, whose votes he does not need for a majority, to join a new governing coalition. Likud soared from 19 seats in the 120-seat Parliament to 37, while Labor fell from 25 to 19, its poorest showing ever.

The appeal awakened a long-running debate over what, precisely, Mr. Sharon is after. He has repeatedly said he would make "painful concessions" for peace, but he has not spelled out what the concessions would be.

One theory, held by Palestinians and leftist Israelis, is that Mr. Sharon, master strategist, is seeking the political camouflage that Labor's participation would give his rightist policies.

Amram Mitzna, Labor's leader, believes that Labor played that role for Mr. Sharon in his last coalition government ? and paid the price for its compromised identity in the voting on Tuesday.

The other theory, held by many settlers, is that Mr. Sharon, master strategist, wants to confound the hawks by reaching a historic peace agreement with the Palestinians. The Labor Party would serve as political leverage, not camouflage.

According to that theory, Mr. Sharon, at 74, wants to vault into the ranks of Israeli peacemakers like Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Rabin, and to erase the blots on his own record. Meir Sheetrit, a moderate Likud politician, likes to say that with a second term Mr. Sharon has the chance to "make history" or "be history."

"I think he wants to make history," said Mr. Sheetrit, who favors the resumption of a peace effort.

There is, of course, another possibility: that Mr. Sharon is a master tactician, not a master strategist, and that he is trying to survive in office and retain the backing of the United States while advancing in a general direction, rather than toward a specific goal.

Mr. Sharon opposed the Oslo peace agreement as a threat to Israeli security, and as Palestinian violence has continued, Israel has taken back almost all of the autonomy that was granted to the Palestinian Authority under Oslo.

Mr. Sharon always feared and distrusted Yasir Arafat, and under Mr. Sharon Israel has in effect imprisoned the Palestinian leader in Ramallah. Mr. Sharon always supported the settlements, and under him the settlements have grown.

The prime minister supports what he calls a long-term interim arrangement with the Palestinians. That is effectively what he has now, with no talks toward a final settlement of the dispute under way. All this has happened with the Bush administration's acquiescence if not outright support.

"My guess is, without the deaths and the loss of life, the situation now is probably as close to what he would want as he could imagine," said Asher Arian, a political scientist at Haifa University. "He's not really negotiating. He's not moving. He's building the settlements."

According to that theory, Mr. Sharon actually means what he says ? as, it might be noted, he himself claims. "What I say, I mean, and what I mean, I say," Mr. Sharon recently told foreign reporters.

In his autobiography, "Warrior," Mr. Sharon wrote that while he was leading Israel's crack paratroopers in the 1950's, he decided that a policy of mere retaliation or deterrence was not enough to secure a haven for Jews in a region dominated by Arabs.

His goal, he said, "was to create in the Arabs a psychology of defeat, to beat them every time and to beat them so decisively that they would develop the conviction that they would never win."

In March of last year, Mr. Sharon said of Israel's response to Palestinian terrorism: "The aim is to increase the number of losses on the other side. Only after they've been battered will we be able to conduct talks."

That was before Israel began what has proved to be its biggest military offensive since, as defense minister, Mr. Sharon led the invasion of Lebanon in 1982.

Mr. Sharon's repeated answer to the Americans' various forays into peacemaking here has been a quick yes, followed more quietly by modifications. He has taken that approach to the "road map" to peace and a Palestinian state that the Bush administration is drafting with diplomatic allies. Mr. Sharon says he "accepts" the road map, but that he also wants numerous changes made.

Over the last two years he has added conditions to a resumption of negotiations with the Palestinians, and the Bush administration has agreed to each one.

First Mr. Sharon demanded that the Palestinians halt all violence and dismantle all terrorist organizations. Then he demanded that Mr. Arafat be replaced, and that the Palestinians reform their security forces, economic system and governance.

Today Mr. Arafat offered to meet Mr. Sharon immediately, but the prime minister dismissed the proposal, declaring in a statement that Mr. Arafat was tied to terrorism and "will not be a partner for negotiations."

President Bush effectively endorsed Mr. Sharon's conditions in a speech in June. The draft road map, by contrast, demands that Israel also speedily make concessions, including stopping settlement construction. In saying he accepts the plan, Mr. Sharon means that he accepts what Mr. Bush said in June.

Mr. Sharon has said he will accept an eventual Palestinian state that would occupy less than half of the West Bank ? and none of Jerusalem ? and be demilitarized. Israel would control its airspace. He envisions the borders of this state as being made final in perhaps 10 years.

Under Mr. Sharon's plan, Israel would retain areas of the West Bank that he regards as essential to security ? areas where, not incidentally, most of the settlements have been built.

"He thinks he can settle the problem at a lower cost, and on a longer timetable," said Shimon Peres, long a leading figure in the Labor Party, who served as Mr. Sharon's foreign minister in the unity coalition.

He said he doubted that any Palestinian leadership would agree to Mr. Sharon's terms. "The Likud doesn't understand that to make peace with the Palestinians you need the Palestinians," he said.

Another of Mr. Sharon's former ministers from Labor, Ephraim Sneh, said today that the time had come to end the guessing game over whether the prime minister wants to make peace or war.

"Instead of judging between two assumptions," Mr. Sneh said, "I suggest something different: let him act, and if he goes in the right direction we shall give him full support, even, if needed, to join him after he did the right thing."

Asked what Labor would consider a possible litmus test to demonstrate Mr. Sharon's intentions, Mr. Sneh said he should dismantle the many settlement outposts built in the last two years that Israel has considered illegal.



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Moonbeam

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Nov 24, 1999
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I think the destiny of the Jews is to relive the horror of the holocaust by visiting it on the Palistinians. Their average income is down to 2 dollars a day and malnutrition is widespread. Perhaps when we see the skeletal bodies of Palistinian children of TV in the bantustan enclaves or ovens the Israelis are creating for the Palistinians and the children are too weak to strap on explosives someboey will sit up and say, WTF is this. A seeming little known fact about the human mind is that we bring our worst fears to reality.
 

Dudd

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Aug 3, 2001
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Well, Sharon has chosen to take a military solution to the conflict, and to do so you need to win completely. I paraphrase Ender's game: If you're going to get into a fight with someone, beat him completely to the point where he will never be able or want to fight with you again. Otherwise, you may knock him down today, but you'll have to do it tomorrow as well.
 

BMdoobieW

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Oct 26, 2000
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I'm not gonna read all that. I don't know what Sharon wants. But here's what I want: to be able to visit/live in Israel and have a similar experience as visiting/living in the USA. Namely, to be able to travel the country in relative safety, and go anywhere in the country I please.
 

polm

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May 24, 2001
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I think the destiny of the Jews is to relive the horror of the holocaust by visiting it on the Palistinians. Their average income is down to 2 dollars a day and malnutrition is widespread. Perhaps when we see the skeletal bodies of Palistinian children of TV in the bantustan enclaves or ovens the Israelis are creating for the Palistinians and the children are too weak to strap on explosives someboey will sit up and say, WTF is this. A seeming little known fact about the human mind is that we bring our worst fears to reality.

Ovens ?? Ovens ??? WTF are you talking about !

I think youre predictions on Israely destiny are rediculous. IMHO.
 

Moonbeam

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Nov 24, 1999
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Well thanks for putting it so diplomatically, polm. I was refering to the bantustaning of Palestinian terratory as enclaves or ovens, or pressure cookers that are suffocating the Palistinian people.

I did a search to clarify the concept for you if you are unfamiliar with it. Link

Please don't attack the web site or me for using it as a link. It just happens to explain what I was refering too. I've never seen that site before in my life. I just grabbed it for the bantustan principle to explain it.

Not implying the palistinians haven't or won't become monsters to as they relive their nightmares unconsciously. I'm talking about how the mind of man works, a working too little understood and appreciated. The world is in profound need of a doctor of the mind.
 

polm

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May 24, 2001
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Well thanks for putting it so diplomatically, polm. I was refering to the bantustaning of Palestinian terratory as enclaves or ovens, or pressure cookers that are suffocating the Palistinian people.

I did a search to clarify the concept for you if you are unfamiliar with it. Link

Please don't attack the web site or me for using it as a link. It just happens to explain what I was refering too. I've never seen that site before in my life. I just grabbed it for the bantustan principle to explain it.

Not implying the palistinians haven't or won't become monsters to as they relive their nightmares unconsciously. I'm talking about how the mind of man works, a working too little understood and appreciated. The world is in profound need of a doctor of the mind.

Well maybe my recent trip to "Yad Vashem" in J'Lem (Holocaust Memorial Museum) left me feeling a little extra sensitive about the "oven" comment. The current issue with Israel and Palstine, IMHO, can not be compared to the Jewish Holocaust. Israel is not trying to exterminate the Arabs living in the West Bank or Gaza, or anywhere for that matter.
 

ThePresence

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Nov 19, 2001
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
There are different kinds of extermination. To destroy all hope is one.

The aim is to destroy all hope of them ever killing innocent women and children again.
 

coolVariable

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May 18, 2001
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According to his policy, he wants to KILL ALL ARABS!
(He's just as big an anti-semite like Hitler!)
 

Moonbeam

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One always has the highest aim. The killing of innocents is just another way to stop the killing of innocents killing innocents killing innocents killing innocents. The aim is, in this case meaningless. It is the method that matters. One cannot graft loftiness of aim on vileness of methodology. Hitler meant well too.
 

Double Trouble

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Oct 9, 1999
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Sharon is a terrorist and a murderer. My guess is that he'd be happy if he could somehow exterminate all Arabs, but since that's not an achievable goal, he'll just have to be satisfied with opressing the Palestinians.

Sharon=Arafat=Terrorists.... they should both be done away with, then the peace process can begin.
 

WinkOsmosis

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Sep 18, 2002
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Originally posted by: tagej
Sharon is a terrorist and a murderer. My guess is that he'd be happy if he could somehow exterminate all Arabs, but since that's not an achievable goal, he'll just have to be satisfied with opressing the Palestinians.

Sharon=Arafat=Terrorists.... they should both be done away with, then the peace process can begin.

You anti semite!! How dare you insult a Child of God?
 

coolVariable

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May 18, 2001
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You anti semite!! How dare you insult a Child of God?

YOU Anti-Palestinian, Arab-hating, Anti-Semite!!!!



The current issue with Israel and Palstine, IMHO, can not be compared to the Jewish Holocaust. Israel is not trying to exterminate the Arabs living in the West Bank or Gaza, or anywhere for that matter.

Most arabs (and people who know the region and are not jewish Zionists) will disagree with you there.
And to me it also likes damn like they want to exterminate all the Arabs!
Sharon is even using the same language, Hitler used: He like Hitler is speaking of a final solution or Endlösung!
 

polm

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May 24, 2001
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
One always has the highest aim. The killing of innocents is just another way to stop the killing of innocents killing innocents killing innocents killing innocents. The aim is, in this case meaningless. It is the method that matters. One cannot graft loftiness of aim on vileness of methodology. Hitler meant well too.

I agree with you about methods. And what I am saying is that the methods Israel is employing are a far cry from the actions the Nazi's took against the Jewish people. You can draw all the parrallels you want, and it still is not even close to the same thing.
 

ThePresence

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Nov 19, 2001
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Originally posted by: polm
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
One always has the highest aim. The killing of innocents is just another way to stop the killing of innocents killing innocents killing innocents killing innocents. The aim is, in this case meaningless. It is the method that matters. One cannot graft loftiness of aim on vileness of methodology. Hitler meant well too.

I agree with you about methods. And what I am saying is that the methods Israel is employing are a far cry from the actions the Nazi's took against the Jewish people. You can draw all the parrallels you want, and it still is not even close to the same thing.

Polm, anyone who compares the the Israeli's to the Nazi's is obviously an ignorant, misinformed tool. Don't waste your breath arguing with them.
 

justint

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Originally posted by: coolVariable
You anti semite!! How dare you insult a Child of God?

YOU Anti-Palestinian, Arab-hating, Anti-Semite!!!!



The current issue with Israel and Palstine, IMHO, can not be compared to the Jewish Holocaust. Israel is not trying to exterminate the Arabs living in the West Bank or Gaza, or anywhere for that matter.

Most arabs (and people who know the region and are not jewish Zionists) will disagree with you there.
And to me it also likes damn like they want to exterminate all the Arabs!
Sharon is even using the same language, Hitler used: He like Hitler is speaking of a final solution or Endlösung!

It is not really arguable that Sharon has a taste for killing/maiming/opressing Arabs that goes back over 50 years, but to equate the state of Israel and its government with Hitler and the Nazis is laughable and insulting. This is a war over territory and the destinies of two peoples, not a war of genocide. Sharon may want to get rid of the Palestinians, but he doesn't seriously want to GET RID of the Palestinians.

That said the tactics that both sides are using are not imo acceptable in the modern world and are leading to a disaster for both peoples.
 

Dari

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Oct 25, 2002
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sharon has done exactly what he wanted to do to the arabs. Fear and apathy reigns supreme in the hearts and minds of arabs. But there is also perseverance
.
 

coolVariable

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May 18, 2001
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to equate the state of Israel and its government with Hitler and the Nazis is laughable and insulting.

Not to do it (and see the truth of it) is foolish and stupid!



So it is okay to talk of a final solution for the arabs but not for jews?
Why no Endloesung for Jews? (The idea of the Nazis to round up all jews and imprison them all on the island of madagaskar might have been a good idea after all!)
 

ThePresence

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Nov 19, 2001
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Originally posted by: coolVariable
to equate the state of Israel and its government with Hitler and the Nazis is laughable and insulting.

Not to do it (and see the truth of it) is foolish and stupid!



So it is okay to talk of a final solution for the arabs but not for jews?
Why no Endloesung for Jews? (The idea of the Nazis to round up all jews and imprison them all on the island of madagaskar might have been a good idea after all!)

Anti-Semitic scumbag. YES HE SAID ANTI SEMITE!!! Fvck you, moron. You dont have the foggiest notion of what goes on in the middle east, but then again, you don't seem like the type to let facts bother you.
 

justint

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Dec 6, 1999
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Originally posted by: coolVariable
to equate the state of Israel and its government with Hitler and the Nazis is laughable and insulting.

Not to do it (and see the truth of it) is foolish and stupid!



So it is okay to talk of a final solution for the arabs but not for jews?
Why no Endloesung for Jews? (The idea of the Nazis to round up all jews and imprison them all on the island of madagaskar might have been a good idea after all!)

it is not more right to persecute Arabs than it is to persecute Jews and vice a versa. You seem to have a problem with Jews?? Even most Arabs don't have a problem with Jews in general but rather with Israelis.

No one is talking about a "final solution" for the Arabs except for a few crackpot right wingers and some loudmouths on this board and elsewhere whose solution to everything is "nuke em" or something along those lines. .
 

CPA

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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I think the destiny of the Jews is to relive the horror of the holocaust by visiting it on the Palistinians. Their average income is down to 2 dollars a day and malnutrition is widespread. Perhaps when we see the skeletal bodies of Palistinian children of TV in the bantustan enclaves or ovens the Israelis are creating for the Palistinians and the children are too weak to strap on explosives someboey will sit up and say, WTF is this. A seeming little known fact about the human mind is that we bring our worst fears to reality.


Or maybe the Eqyptians, who forced the Palestinians to Palestine, need to pony up some money and get Arafat to release the millions that he has been hording.

 

Moonbeam

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Nov 24, 1999
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When did criticism of the policies of the government of Israel become anti-Semitism, Presence?

You're just being anti-coolVariable, no?