Question for Europeans...

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Witling

Golden Member
Jul 30, 2003
1,448
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FrodoB, you'll help me (if not us), if you put the little smiley face in when you're kidding.:)

EDITED: Even if you're kidding, Dean is a doctor, his wife is a doctor, his dad was a doctor. Trust me, you don't have to worry to much about him being a socialist. At worst, he might make the playing field a little more level.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Whitling
FrodoB, you'll help me (if not us), if you put the little smiley face in when you're kidding.:)

EDITED: Even if you're kidding, Dean is a doctor, his wife is a doctor, his dad was a doctor. Trust me, you don't have to worry to much about him being a socialist. At worst, he might make the playing field a little more level.
Her dad was a doctor - His dad was a stock broker.:) Just an FYI.

CkG
 

Witling

Golden Member
Jul 30, 2003
1,448
0
0
Thanks Cad! I appreciate the correction. I'll also take this opportunity to reassert that this isn't the kind of guy who's going to radically reform the U.S. He'll be portrayed that way -- but that's politics. Unfortunately, we get what we deserve.
 

ClueLis

Platinum Member
Jul 2, 2003
2,269
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I remember during his campaign, Le Pen said it was French women's "patriotic duty" to have children. That man was nuts.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
If women refuse, or don't have the time, to have children. Then I see no problem with men cheating. If anything, I think it's the female fault. If she can't have kids because of her career or lack of time, either she takes time off or help her hubby find a suitable mother. If anything, this should be a clause to new marriages.
 

FrodoB

Senior member
Apr 5, 2001
299
0
0
Dean, like many Democrats on the far left, are indeed socialists at heart. It's a system that requires each person to relinquish their personal freedom and transfer absolute power to government that will claim to make everything "free" and create a system of so called "equality". It's just a concealed attempt for an extremely small amount of people to retain absolute power over everyone. Europe is almost there. The fact that they don't have the will to reproduce and so many of them still want to come here shows some of the results of "socialism.". I have nothing against Europeans, just their systems of government. I would love to visit Europe, especially places of my own ancestry (Itailian, Scottish, Irish, and German)
Back to my original subject.... it's very possible that there will be more people of European ancestry here than there will be in Europe in 100 years. If that's the choice that Europe wants to make, then so be it. The world is cyclical... Europe itself is a land of ancient immigrants.
 

FrodoB

Senior member
Apr 5, 2001
299
0
0
Originally posted by: Dari
If women refuse, or don't have the time, to have children. Then I see no problem with men cheating. If anything, I think it's the female fault. If she can't have kids because of her career or lack of time, either she takes time off or help her hubby find a suitable mother. If anything, this should be a clause to new marriages.
That's why a lot of marriages fail... "minor" details like that are never talked about before the wedding.

Having children definitely involves sacrifice, but the best things in life are never free. In the case of children, the end result is worth far more than the value of buying a new car every couple years or taking lavish vacations every year. At least that's my opinion. :) Seriously, what does it say about a society that would rather face extinction than cutting back on some luxury items? Some people here call it intelligence... I call it stupidity to the infinite degree.
 

Witling

Golden Member
Jul 30, 2003
1,448
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0
Frodo, your opinion of socialism is a mischaracterization (isn't that more elegant than "crock of sh!t"?). The people of the Scandanavian countries aren't exactly oppressed.
 

FrodoB

Senior member
Apr 5, 2001
299
0
0
Originally posted by: Whitling
Frodo, your opinion of socialism is a mischaracterization (isn't that more elegant than "crock of sh!t"?). The people of the Scandanavian countries aren't exactly oppressed.
Mischaracterization?? Prove me wrong, buddy.
And no, they aren't oppressed. But is there as much oppurtunity there as there is here? No way. Not even close.
 

tnitsuj

Diamond Member
May 22, 2003
5,446
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76
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: tnitsuj
High education for women = fewer children. Pretty simple.
High education for women != happiness. Very simple.
So you don't believe in women pursuing high levels of education..and how do you define happiness?
 

Witling

Golden Member
Jul 30, 2003
1,448
0
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OK, Frodo. Prove you wrong, huh.

Your original statement about socialism was "It's just a concealed attempt for an extremely small amount of people to retain absolute power over everyone." In your defense, you say (in addition to "prove me wrong"), "And no, they aren't oppressed. But is there as much oppurtunity there as there is here? No way. Not even close."

Read slowly now, "not as much opportunity" is not the same as "retain absolute power." Not just "absolute power," but "absolute power over everyone."

I happen to think that words have meaning. I know, it's a shortcoming. But "as much opportunity" seems to me to be quite different in quality and magnitude from "absolute power over everyone." If you attempt to rationalize this in a subsequent post, please also deal with the apparent conflict between "absolute power over everyone" and "And no, they aren't oppressed."

I've heard that "loose lips sink ships." Somewhere there are seamen drowning.
 

Drift3r

Guest
Jun 3, 2003
3,572
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In California Anglo's are becoming a minority as we speak. You people don't breed fast enough as whole in the U.S. as well.
 
Dec 27, 2001
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Originally posted by: tnitsuj
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: tnitsuj
High education for women = fewer children. Pretty simple.
High education for women != happiness. Very simple.
So you don't believe in women pursuing high levels of education..and how do you define happiness?
What do you mean "believe in" it? Like the tooth fairy or Santa Claus? What from what I've said gives you that impression?

Anyway, I have zero problem with women or men choosing to pursue careers over families. But I don't imagine when those people die that they sit there alone in a hospital bed thinking, wow...I had one heck of a career...remember that time I made that presentation infront of the board. The fact that people value careers over family says alot about those societies and ours. Careers are good things, but they shouldn't be viewed as the main thing.
 
Dec 27, 2001
11,272
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Originally posted by: Drift3r
In California Anglo's are becoming a minority as we speak. You people don't breed fast enough as whole in the U.S. as well.
Well, there needs to be an optimal balance. You don't want procreation to be your career like it is for some Latinos. But you don't want to plug into the collective like the Europeans either. Strike a balance between the two...it doesn't have to be one or the other.
 

Strk

Lifer
Nov 23, 2003
10,198
4
76
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: thraxes
(10% unemployment in Germany)
Originally posted by: thraxes
In short our existance as a nation is in jeopardy because we are just too well educated and can esitmate the risks and impact of raising a child far better...
Sounds like your existance as a nation is in jeopardy because of your nation's politics and not because of your uber education.
Germany's unemployment is kind of a screwy figure. There are still parts in East Germany with over 20% because of its past.(damn commies) There is also the issue of what they did to rebound after WW2.(encouraged a lot immigration, but then the economy ceased to grow at such a rapid rate and Germany also had a law that refused citizenship to individuals who were not of German heritage.)

Anyways, it has already been said several times, but the fact is the more educated and successful a people are, the more children are put off as a goal. As far as the US is concerned, the last statistics I read had minorities having the high rates and caucasions decreasing.(If someone has a link to statistics that would be great. Mine are from a book about 40 miles away from me so I cannot give exact numbers)
 

freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
81
Originally posted by: Dari
If women refuse, or don't have the time, to have children. Then I see no problem with men cheating. If anything, I think it's the female fault. If she can't have kids because of her career or lack of time, either she takes time off or help her hubby find a suitable mother. If anything, this should be a clause to new marriages.
sounds a bit like the system that the NAZI's used too breed an überrace
 

Drift3r

Guest
Jun 3, 2003
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Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: Drift3r
In California Anglo's are becoming a minority as we speak. You people don't breed fast enough as whole in the U.S. as well.
Well, there needs to be an optimal balance. You don't want procreation to be your career like it is for some Latinos. But you don't want to plug into the collective like the Europeans either. Strike a balance between the two...it doesn't have to be one or the other.

What balance ? White people as a group have the lowest birth rates in this nation when compared to other racial groups.
 

Drift3r

Guest
Jun 3, 2003
3,572
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0
Originally posted by: Dari
If women refuse, or don't have the time, to have children. Then I see no problem with men cheating. If anything, I think it's the female fault. If she can't have kids because of her career or lack of time, either she takes time off or help her hubby find a suitable mother. If anything, this should be a clause to new marriages.


Which is something a couple should of talked about before getting married ! Of course just because a women is not ready to have a kid yet does not mean that a couples sexual life is down in the dumps and does not give someone a license for infidelity. You're excuse sounds like something a child would come up with, "I couldn't get my mommy to buy me the toy so I went behind her back and I stole money out of her purse and bought it instead !".
 

Grakatt

Senior member
Feb 27, 2003
315
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0
Originally posted by: FrodoB
Originally posted by: Whitling
Frodo, your opinion of socialism is a mischaracterization (isn't that more elegant than "crock of sh!t"?). The people of the Scandanavian countries aren't exactly oppressed.
Mischaracterization?? Prove me wrong, buddy.
And no, they aren't oppressed. But is there as much oppurtunity there as there is here? No way. Not even close.
Speaking as a Swedish citizen: What are you talking about, exactly?
 

freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
81
Originally posted by: Grakatt
Originally posted by: FrodoB
Originally posted by: Whitling
Frodo, your opinion of socialism is a mischaracterization (isn't that more elegant than "crock of sh!t"?). The people of the Scandanavian countries aren't exactly oppressed.
Mischaracterization?? Prove me wrong, buddy.
And no, they aren't oppressed. But is there as much oppurtunity there as there is here? No way. Not even close.
Speaking as a Swedish citizen: What are you talking about, exactly?

don't bother with these flagwaving idiots

they are convinced that most of Europe is some evil communist dictatorship
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
Originally posted by: Drift3r
Originally posted by: Dari
If women refuse, or don't have the time, to have children. Then I see no problem with men cheating. If anything, I think it's the female fault. If she can't have kids because of her career or lack of time, either she takes time off or help her hubby find a suitable mother. If anything, this should be a clause to new marriages.


Which is something a couple should of talked about before getting married ! Of course just because a women is not ready to have a kid yet does not mean that a couples sexual life is down in the dumps and does not give someone a license for infidelity. You're excuse sounds like something a child would come up with, "I couldn't get my mommy to buy me the toy so I went behind her back and I stole money out of her purse and bought it instead !".
Who said anything about sexual life? I'm talking about regeneration and surrogate mothers. How his that childish? And your allegory is more representative of a rape scenerio than infidelity.
 

FrodoB

Senior member
Apr 5, 2001
299
0
0
Originally posted by: Strk
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: thraxes
(10% unemployment in Germany)
Originally posted by: thraxes
In short our existance as a nation is in jeopardy because we are just too well educated and can esitmate the risks and impact of raising a child far better...
Sounds like your existance as a nation is in jeopardy because of your nation's politics and not because of your uber education.
Germany's unemployment is kind of a screwy figure. There are still parts in East Germany with over 20% because of its past.(damn commies) There is also the issue of what they did to rebound after WW2.(encouraged a lot immigration, but then the economy ceased to grow at such a rapid rate and Germany also had a law that refused citizenship to individuals who were not of German heritage.)

Anyways, it has already been said several times, but the fact is the more educated and successful a people are, the more children are put off as a goal. As far as the US is concerned, the last statistics I read had minorities having the high rates and caucasions decreasing.(If someone has a link to statistics that would be great. Mine are from a book about 40 miles away from me so I cannot give exact numbers)

Here are the current total fertility rates and future projections - http://www.census.gov/population/projections/nation/summary/np-t7-a.pdf
All of the TFR rates are very healthy.... even whites currently reproduce at replacement levels and non-hispanic whites reproduce a just a tiny bit below replacement. The middle series of future projections for non-hispanic whites shows replacement level total fertility rates. It's interesting that blacks are at replacement levels also. And of course Hispanics reproduce at baby boomer rates. :) But that's consistant with immigrant groups of our past (Italian, Irish, German). To sum it up - the "natives" - whites, blacks and american indians repoduce at or near replacement, and the immigrants reproduce above replacement. These are numbers that Europe should strive for - a solid native base with an increasing new immigrant base creating true diversity.
 

FrodoB

Senior member
Apr 5, 2001
299
0
0
Originally posted by: Whitling
OK, Frodo. Prove you wrong, huh.

Your original statement about socialism was "It's just a concealed attempt for an extremely small amount of people to retain absolute power over everyone." In your defense, you say (in addition to "prove me wrong"), "And no, they aren't oppressed. But is there as much oppurtunity there as there is here? No way. Not even close."

Read slowly now, "not as much opportunity" is not the same as "retain absolute power." Not just "absolute power," but "absolute power over everyone."

I happen to think that words have meaning. I know, it's a shortcoming. But "as much opportunity" seems to me to be quite different in quality and magnitude from "absolute power over everyone." If you attempt to rationalize this in a subsequent post, please also deal with the apparent conflict between "absolute power over everyone" and "And no, they aren't oppressed."

I've heard that "loose lips sink ships." Somewhere there are seamen drowning.
First, for socialism to actually "work" (which is currently impossible), the government becomes the overseer to make sure you are receiving everything you need to survive. Instead of self-reliance for survival, you rely on the government to make sure you get your fair share. This introduces many different types of new regulations to "make it work." Being the provider of your welfare, the government gains an almost absolute power.
I never said that Europe is at that point, but it is on it's way. Low fertility brings it a step closer. You pay exhorbitant taxes now, but just wait. The government will force your youth to pay even more taxes to take care of an elderly population and help train and support a large unskilled immigrant labor force needed for survival of the country... or in that future case - the EU. Not having much after tax income, you're gong to be forced to look to the government to provide for many of your needs.
As far as limited oppurtunity in Europe goes... I've talked to many Europeans over the years. All their stories are the same... they are in the US for more oppurtunity. From what I've gathered, in Europe there is lttle carreer mobility. You are what you are for life. This isn't my opinion of how it is.... like I said, this is what so many Europeans have told me. Your basic needs are defiintely met... you may even be happy, but you'll definitely be enjoy a greater sense of happiness and oppurtunity here. And in the future you won't be happy when so much of your paycheck is supporting your elederly population because you let your population.... and even your civilization... dwindle.

edited for spelling... being a stupid american conservative (actually, closer to center), there are probably many more spelling mistakes... and being a lazy american, i won't bother to fix them. :)
 

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