Question for Europeans...

FrodoB

Senior member
Apr 5, 2001
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Why are you letting yourselves fade out of existence? The EU fertility rate is a pathetic 1.47 babies per woman. 2.1 is required to simply replace the population. Even if there is an immediate return to fertility replacement levels, the future population loss is still enormous. Since you're unwilling to have kids, immigration is the only solution. Naturally they're going to bring their culture with them, thus diluting the current European culture and heritage. I'm even willing to bet that the 1.47 fertility rate is inflated by newer immigrants. In comparison, the U.S. is at the 2.1 replacement level, and even non-hispanic whites reproduce at near replacement levels. However, Japan is also at a very low fertility rate (1.4), and other more developed Asian countries are also at low rates. So right now, with the exception of the United States, the developed world doesn't feel the need to replace themselves. I personally believe there is something wrong with a society that doesn't want to replace themselves. Of course the environmentalist will say that this is a good thing, but there's no way that the masses of people in Europe and Japan consider population control issues in family planning. There has to be another reason. Greed? Depression? Low self-esteem?
By the way, people can be very sensitive, so let me just mention that I'm not against immigrants. We Americans are all immigrants. :)
 

Zephyr106

Banned
Jul 2, 2003
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Fade from existance? "Diluting the current European culture and heritage?" You sound like the "American Aryans" who complain about their "White Culture" under attack from Jews and Blacks. Let the Europeans have as many children as they want. Because, in fact, cultural closeness in tight-knit communities, events and holidays, etc. promote and contribute to the longevity of culture, MUCH MORE than breeding large quantities of culturally-ignorant children, whose "new-culture" may very well end up being an amalgam, with the greatest influence from the "new," "different" immigrant culture. I'm not suggesting that the Europeans are particularly passing on their culture, or that they even should.

Zephyr
 

B00ne

Platinum Member
May 21, 2001
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It is because A) Europe is overcrowded, B) ppl do not want to set kids into this world (for many ppl everything seems to get worse), C) Buisness is preventing the higher educated to have kids - why profits they do not want to employ woman than will/possibly could have kids, woman with high education do not want to sacrifice their career for kids - it is almost impossible to work and have kids at the same time unless they have a homeman. And there is the problem of getting a flat when u have kids - landlords do not want families with kids

So yes, basically only the lesser educated and immigrants breed - hard but fairly accurate
 

Grakatt

Senior member
Feb 27, 2003
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Well, for Scandinavia, Finland isn't taking many immigrants at all, and neither are Iceland or Denmark afaik.
Only Sweden has the beginnings of a true 'Multi-cultural' society. Don't really know about Norway.

I guess the people that get developed last will be the biggest contributers to the human species genepool, or something like that *shrug*.

It is sort of ironic how the western European race dominated the world scene a hundred years ago, and in another hundred its submissive genes will begin to fade away.
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
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Intelligence has proven to be a poor survival mechanism. At least so far. :)
So what humans do probably doesn't matter because the insects will take over. They're already in the White House and Congress. :)

-Robert
 

beyoku

Golden Member
Aug 20, 2003
1,568
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Originally posted by: chess9
Intelligence has proven to be a poor survival mechanism. At least so far. :)
So what humans do probably doesn't matter because the insects will take over. They're already in the White House and Congress. :)

-Robert
what.............cockroaches ? :D
 

zephyrprime

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2001
7,510
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There has to be another reason. Greed? Depression? Low self-esteem?
I think it's because of fun. People are having too much fun in their lives and don't want the burden of kids. This wasn't possible to do in the past because a certain other sort of fun activity prevented childlessness but now it's possible with birth control.

And the UN did a study that showed the most effective way to have less kids is to educate girls. So maybe intelligence really is bad for the species.
 

Mardeth

Platinum Member
Jul 24, 2002
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Theres two simple answers, one is womens rights and education. Here women have learned that they dont have to suffer, stay home and clean up or raise kids but instead they can persue a career. When the equality of the sexes gets better there youll see the same results (althought women would have to be clever to know their rights which could be a problem there ;), j/k). Other important factor is culture obviously...
 
Dec 27, 2001
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Originally posted by: Mardeth
Theres two simple answers, one is womens rights and education. Here women have learned that they dont have to suffer, stay home and clean up or raise kids but instead they can persue a career. When the equality of the sexes gets better there youll see the same results (althought women would have to be clever to know their rights which could be a problem there ;), j/k). Other important factor is culture obviously...
That or Euro men have trouble performing.
 

ReiAyanami

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2002
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there are already too many ppl on this planet. if they continue to have population growth, eventually ppl will run out of space to live (tokyo) and u'll literally live in a shoebox as your apartment. hence to make more space, rather than eastern europe's policy of ethnic genocide, the western euro's decided to simply have less babies

why did many emigrate to the 13 colonies? too many ppl in europe
why did the black plague spread so fast? too many ppl in europe (and too many mice)
and why did france support an iraq under saddam? too many cowards in france
 

FrodoB

Senior member
Apr 5, 2001
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For some reason this whole topic really fascinates me. Why does the United States reproduce at a much higher rate than Europe and Japan? My only guess is religion. Overall Americans are more much religious than Europe and Japan. A good supporting example of this is Ireland. Ireland reproduces at higher rate than the rest of Europe. Is this due to it being a predominately Catholic nation?
I actually work with a French woman. She was born in France, but has lived here for a couple decades. We talk about world issues such as this quite often. It does bother her that France, in her opinion, is losing its cultural identity in a several ways.
First off, she has noticed the different population situation on a personal scale. Her mom had 5 children. She had 3 children here in the States, but her other siblings had one child each. So her own family is shrinking, and from what she has heard when she visits, there are many one child families. However, in defense of France,facts show that for a European country, France does reproduce higher than most (1.7/female).
Secondly, she doesn't like the idea of the EU because she believes that individual cultures (French, German, Italian, etc..) will die out. She believes that the main goal of the EU is to become a major economic competitor of the US.
And third, the last few times she has visited she has noticed that there seem to be more Muslims immigrants in her hometown than, for the lack of a better phrase, ethnic French. She is in no way racist; she's actually extremely liberal in many of her views (typical of most Europeans I've talked to). But it does bother her that "France is losing its culture."
Some European governments are considering serious financial incentive programs to have more children. Europe is going to have a HUGE problem very shortly. Similar to the US, Europe had a baby boom after the war. However, those baby boomers will be entering retirement age and there will not be enough young works - foreign or native - to support them.
zephyrprime: A society that is having too much "fun" to want the burden of kids is a DYSFUNCTIONAL society, and has a poor unnatural definition of fun.
 

FrodoB

Senior member
Apr 5, 2001
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The statement that there are too many people on this planet is false. Much of the world is still wilderness. The population of the world will peak and fall in this century. If people consumed resources in a more efficient manner, I believe this planet can support a MUCH higher population. Obviously I have no scientific proof of this. BUt the zero popualation people have no (non-politically motivated) proof of their cause either.
 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
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Originally posted by: FrodoB
For some reason this whole topic really fascinates me. Why does the United States reproduce at a much higher rate than Europe and Japan? My only guess is religion. Overall Americans are more much religious than Europe and Japan. A good supporting example of this is Ireland. Ireland reproduces at higher rate than the rest of Europe. Is this due to it being a predominately Catholic nation?
I think that's one of the most important factors. I think its not that religion dictates that you have lots of kids, but that religious people tend to be much more...traditional. More likely to have a stay at home mom, have more kids etc. This would certainly explain why the US has a higher fertility rate, since it is more than twice as religios as any other developed country.

Also, you fail to take into account the diversity of the US. I don't have any data to support this, but I sure that if you compare the more liberal states (California, NY, Connecticut etc) with some of the more traditional (Georgia perhaps? Iowa, I am not sure), you will find lower fertility rates in Cali and NY.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
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Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
Originally posted by: FrodoB
For some reason this whole topic really fascinates me. Why does the United States reproduce at a much higher rate than Europe and Japan? My only guess is religion. Overall Americans are more much religious than Europe and Japan. A good supporting example of this is Ireland. Ireland reproduces at higher rate than the rest of Europe. Is this due to it being a predominately Catholic nation?
I think that's one of the most important factors. I think its not that religion dictates that you have lots of kids, but that religious people tend to be much more...traditional. More likely to have a stay at home mom, have more kids etc. This would certainly explain why the US has a higher fertility rate, since it is more than twice as religios as any other developed country.

Also, you fail to take into account the diversity of the US. I don't have any data to support this, but I sure that if you compare the more liberal states (California, NY, Connecticut etc) with some of the more traditional (Georgia perhaps? Iowa, I am not sure), you will find lower fertility rates in Cali and NY.

The US has a higher fertility rate because its population is younger, has more immigrants, and, like you said, is religious. If they aren't careful, today's Europeans will leave a tremendous liability to the younger generations, forcing them to work longer to support their elders. I started a thread based on this article not too long ago.
 

glugglug

Diamond Member
Jun 9, 2002
5,340
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Originally posted by: chess9
Intelligence has proven to be a poor survival mechanism. At least so far. :)
So what humans do probably doesn't matter because the insects will take over. They're already in the White House and Congress. :)

-Robert

I've seen several studies which found there is a strong inverse correlation between intelligence and # of children per family. This has been shown in animals other than humans as well! Makes this world's future all the more frightening.
 

Spencer278

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 2002
3,637
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Originally posted by: FrodoB
The statement that there are too many people on this planet is false. Much of the world is still wilderness. The population of the world will peak and fall in this century. If people consumed resources in a more efficient manner, I believe this planet can support a MUCH higher population. Obviously I have no scientific proof of this. BUt the zero popualation people have no (non-politically motivated) proof of their cause either.
I have non-politically motivated proof their are to many people in this world and it is this hole in the wall I'm renting for way to much money with a roommate and people that live above and below me.
 

FrodoB

Senior member
Apr 5, 2001
299
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Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
Originally posted by: FrodoB
For some reason this whole topic really fascinates me. Why does the United States reproduce at a much higher rate than Europe and Japan? My only guess is religion. Overall Americans are more much religious than Europe and Japan. A good supporting example of this is Ireland. Ireland reproduces at higher rate than the rest of Europe. Is this due to it being a predominately Catholic nation?
I think that's one of the most important factors. I think its not that religion dictates that you have lots of kids, but that religious people tend to be much more...traditional. More likely to have a stay at home mom, have more kids etc. This would certainly explain why the US has a higher fertility rate, since it is more than twice as religios as any other developed country.

Also, you fail to take into account the diversity of the US. I don't have any data to support this, but I sure that if you compare the more liberal states (California, NY, Connecticut etc) with some of the more traditional (Georgia perhaps? Iowa, I am not sure), you will find lower fertility rates in Cali and NY.

The US has a higher fertility rate because its population is younger, has more immigrants, and, like you said, is religious. If they aren't careful, today's Europeans will leave a tremendous liability to the younger generations, forcing them to work longer to support their elders. I started a thread based on this article not too long ago.

Every European should read that article. Thank God I don't live there!
 

thraxes

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2000
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I live in Germany and I know many families in the middle income bracket. As most families in their economic position, the parents are well educated and have well paying jobs. One of these couples had a child recently and the mother told me that whoever wanted to be pregnant at the moment had to be either very stupid or "pretty well off". The costs of raising a child are huge and contrary to popular belief, state daycare funding is minimal. Usually the daycares (like schools and colleges) are funded mostly by the city or state governments but they are cutting back services and benefits in all areas to offset a combined deficit of 30 Billion ? (that's just the citys). The headache starts when trying to get a place for your child in these daycare centers. Like for a car in the Soviet east, there is a waiting list. Furthermore it costs the parents a lot of money once in. Very few employers have their own daycare center - even in large corporations it is very rare. Then comes the issue of employing mothers and mothers to be. Of course the companies do not want to sit on the liability that a worker may become pregnant and that they will have to continue to pay 80% af her wages while she is absent... and gaurantee that she will be reemployed in her old position when she gets back. Actually the law governing this has several loopholes which some companies try to exploit every now and then - usually ending up in front of a judge, but some cases are for some reason no longer protected by that law.

So why would a young couple decide to have kids? They would have to throw their current lifestyle out the window, the BMW would have to be traded for an Opel, no long summer vacations to some distant land, the cute house they wanted to buy would have to wait (most young parents live by rent - actually owning a house usually starts when the kids are on average 10-12 years old), one of the couple would have to put his/her career on the back burner for the kid with a risk of not being able to return to work when the time comes because of the bad economy (10% unemployment in Germany)... You would either have to be very stupid to have a kid or have a good contract with your employer that lets you take a gauranteed child-leave, live in an area where there is daycare available and earn enough to be able to afford it. If they live near by the grandparents can help out and almost all young families I know rely heavily on the grandparents to look after the kids.
But what if the grandparents are in poor health and have to be taken care of aswell? Again it's a misconception that the state welfare will provide: If the siblings and/or surrounding family are employed and earn a certain amount of money, the state will not pay for any aid. Taken into consideration is the entire fortune of the family - savings, mortgage, belongings, cars (if the place of employment can be reached within 1,5Hrs via public transport). The state only starts paying when the families ressources are the at barest minimum necessary to live. The financial burden of the kid PLUS the sudden unexpected need of the grandparents can be huge and has driven many families into near bankruptcy and hence state assistance.

Once again who in their right, well educated mind would want a child under these circumstances? Which woman would want to sacrifice her career for a child? My ex GF said that to me on numerous occassions, stating that for her having a child later on was out of the question for all of the above reasons.

In short our existance as a nation is in jeopardy because we are just too well educated and can esitmate the risks and impact of raising a child far better...
 
Dec 27, 2001
11,272
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Originally posted by: thraxes
(10% unemployment in Germany)
Originally posted by: thraxes
In short our existance as a nation is in jeopardy because we are just too well educated and can esitmate the risks and impact of raising a child far better...
Sounds like your existance as a nation is in jeopardy because of your nation's politics and not because of your uber education.
 

Witling

Golden Member
Jul 30, 2003
1,448
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As a child of the pre-60's, I think that attributing a falling birth rate to "womens' rights" and "education," misses something important. Reliable female birth control. As for the rest of it,

1. Cultures have always been modified by new input. The only question is the length of time before the culture (and language) change.

2. Birth rates are not fixed. It is quite likely that populations will decline until a time at which people decide to have more children. It seems to me that you get to pick between two opposed coursed: (1) A study of human history leads to the belief that people will not extinguish themselves (although external forces have done some magnificent work in terms of esxtinguishing); or (2) Somehow the present is radically different from all of human history that went before.

I actually support this second hypothesis but I also don't think we have to worry about the birth rate or changing cultures -- but then, I live in the SF Bay areal. Talk about mixed cultures.
 

FrodoB

Senior member
Apr 5, 2001
299
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WOW! This is an example of why we can't allow the far leftists (Howard Dean) to lead this country. Socialism is a civilization destroying system. This is why Europe is flushing itself down the toilet. Not only are they unwilling to rid the world of dictators, they have a socialist system in place that will lead them to extinction.
News flash "well-educated" Europeans and feminists everywhere - a woman's natural biological function is to have children.
 

freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
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Originally posted by: FrodoB
WOW! This is an example of why we can't allow the far leftists (Howard Dean) to lead this country. Socialism is a civilization destroying system. This is why Europe is flushing itself down the toilet. Not only are they unwilling to rid the world of dictators, they have a socialist system in place that will lead them to extinction.
News flash "well-educated" Europeans and feminists everywhere - a woman's natural biological function is to have children.

as a a well educated european, I can see that you are the stereotype stupid cheap labour conservative American
 

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