Question about intelligent design theory

[her209]

Are you playing daft for the sake of argument or are you daft?

Do you not realise what omniscient means? that means that god knows all past present and future, so if future is known to god, all is past known time.

I *REALLY* cannot make this any simpler for you.

If God is omiscient, does he he know what he's going to know before he knows it?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

I didn't bother to expand on the issue of because, well, it is apparently quite a bit above the level here, but here's some more reading material.

Here is some bits for you to STFU and digest.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randomness#Randomness_versus_unpredictability

I'll break it down for you simpletons:

1) Singular Random event= Fact

2) Hypothesize Existence of Omniscient being

3) Sally performs her sweater choice using #1 operating under existence of #2

Conclusion:

Utilizing Randomness to disprove determinism does not logically invalidate a hypothetical Omniscient being because a singular Random event remains mechanistically 100% random at that point of time under the framework of a single set timeline (this assumes one continuous linear progression of time).

This is false for reasons already given. All you've done is re-state your premises which have already been shown contradictory, and you're just griping because you don't want to have to dismiss one of them.

Deal with the argument as presented.

1.) God knows inerrantly at T0 that X will do Y at time T1
2.) X does not-Y at time T1
3.) Absurdity, the truth of 2 is incompatible with the truth of 1.

X cannot do not-Y at T1 lest God's knowledge be false, which is stipulated to be impossible in (1). Therefore, X does not have the choice to do not-Y.

The point is that free will/free choice is independent of a theoretical Omniscient Seer or Being, whether one exists or not - contrary to what JohnofSheffield claims.

Put another way - the existence of an Omniscient God has no bearing on humanity's free will or determinism in the Universe. Just because Free Will/Choice is likely true however, does not mean an Omniscient God exists... in fact it is additional evidence against one at all.

Re-stating contradictory premises does not absolve the contradiction.

At the same time, I have given my arguments against determinism.

We're not debating whether or not determinism is true.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

God is omniscient and I do have free choice. I don't see any conflict at all.

So if you are picking what to wear for tomorrow and god already knows what you will pick out and you can't pick anything else than that you have free choice?

I swear, i think you're fucking with me, how can you not get this? If it is KNOWN what your choice is and that knowledge is forever flawless and you CANNOT pick any other choice, then how do you have a chioce?

You know what, i'm going to assume that you are just trolling from now on and stop responding because you have to be either intelectually or inherently dishonest here.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

In a set timeline, nothing can be changed. Every event is probability of 100%, every non-event is a probability of 0%.

That has no bearing with each individual event. If this theoretical God rolled a random dice 100 times, he would know the results, but that does not mean the dice were not, are not, and will not continue to be random.

Still false. If God knows inerrantly that the next roll will be a 6, then it must be a 6, or else God's knowledge is not inerrant. All appearances of randomness are only that -- appearances.

 

[02ranger]

You're still not getting it, god is OMNISCIENT, he knows every proton, electoron and neutron in the univers and their exact interactions at all time, he knows that you would type these exact letters on this exact forum since before the universe was even created, you have never chosen to respond to me, you could not choose NOT to respond to me or anything that ever led up to this point in time where you did, because if ANYTHING would differ, god would be wrong and god cannot be wrong.

See, it's that complicated, since the beginning of your family history he has known exactly what protons, electrons and neutrons would produce the spermie that would meet the exact protons, electrons and neutrons that make up the egg of every ancestor since the beginning of RNA in the primordial ... oh wait, since he made that man out of mud and that woman out of a rib.

It's not your choice at any step of the way, because if it had gone differently with any action at any part from then to you writing the exact words on the internet (and lets not start with what he had to know to even get you to write on the internet) he would have been wrong.

So all of this, every action of every man down to our cells, down to molecules, atoms and the parts of atoms and the parts of the parts of atoms, god always knew exactly how all this would play out and if it didn't, god would be wrong... so did you have a choice?

I think I get what you're saying. I'm gonna take a crack at it, correct me if I'm wrong.

Assuming god is omniscient and omnipotent, the things he knows now MUST come to pass because if they didn't then it would mean he's not omniscient. If for instance I decided to go to bed right now, and god thought I was going to stay up all night, then I've just proven god is not omniscient. Obviously, if you accept that god is all-knowing(tired of typing omni-blahblah) then I can't do anything to contradict his knowledge of my decisions. I think I get your point now. It actually makes sense. I keep getting hung up on god being like us when I talked about perspective, but forgetting the all-knowing and all-powerful part. I don't like the idea that I don't have free will. Of course, you avoid the problem all together if you have a god that doesn't know all or no god at all. But that's a little further off-topic than I already am.

Was I close?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Logically, God knowing what we are going to do does not mean that we can't do something else.

God doesn't know what we are going to do. He knows what we must do. To him it is no different than if it were already done. If we can do something different than what God knows, then his knowledge can be wrong, at which point it ceases to be knowledge.

No matter what choice we freely make, it can be known by God, and His knowing it doesn't mean we aren't making a free choice.

Assertions are not arguments.

 

[PhineasJWhoopee]

So if you are picking what to wear for tomorrow and god already knows what you will pick out and you can't pick anything else than that you have free choice?

I swear, i think you're fucking with me, how can you not get this? If it is KNOWN what your choice is and that knowledge is forever flawless and you CANNOT pick any other choice, then how do you have a chioce?

You know what, i'm going to assume that you are just trolling from now on and stop responding because you have to be either intelectually or inherently dishonest here.

Maybe God knows what I will wear tomorrow, but I won't know until I start grabbing around in my closet. The fact that he knows has no bearing on my decison on what I will chose to wear. How could it?

I'm not trolling at all. I'm actually kind of shocked that you don't get it.

 

[DominionSeraph]

Utilizing Randomness to disprove determinism does not logically invalidate a hypothetical Omniscient being because a singular Random event remains mechanistically 100% random at that point of time under the framework of a single set timeline (this assumes one continuous linear progression of time).

If you have an omniscient being YOU NEVER HAD A RANDOM EVENT.

Taken out of time, you have a static point actuality, not a random possibility.
It would BE, with a zero percent chance of it not being. Unless you run the universe again.
But an omniscient being couldn't run it again, for if it had ever been run he would know about it. And know the result. But that still just gives you another static point.

A run yielding X and a run yielding not X does not say that both were actually possible in each run. You do not have one universe with a random event, you have the enigma of two universes with differing point events.

 

[MJinZ]

Are you playing daft for the sake of argument or are you daft?

Do you not realise what omniscient means? that means that god knows all past present and future, so if future is known to god, all is past known time.

I *REALLY* cannot make this any simpler for you.

Whether God is watching the beginning of the movie or the end of the movie is irrelevant. God is watching the movie - he's not IN the movie.

If you are saying that all Future = Past, then do you really believe the Hitler did not have free will?

 

[JulesMaximus]

Intelligent Design Theory? Really? Someone is trying to pass intelligent design off as a theory?

Intelligent design theory: Someone wrote a book a few thousand years ago explaining mankind's existence based on nothing but fairy tales. Now, a few thousand years later, we are debating the fairy tales vs modern science?

Yeah, intelligent design is a nice concept...well crafted words to get ignorant people to believe...kind of like the bible which has been translated many many times throughout history along with religion into the manipulative mess it is today.

Religion is no different than politics, just a bunch of lies from people who want nothing but to line their pockets and control you.

 

[02ranger]

Maybe God knows what I will wear tomorrow, but I won't know until I start grabbing around in my closet. The fact that he knows has no bearing on my decison on what I will chose to wear. How could it?

I'm not trolling at all. I'm actually kind of shocked that you don't get it.

The point is you can't have free will and god be omniscient at the same time. If you can make a decision different from what god knows, you have free will but god doesn't know everything. If god knows everything about what you will do, then you can't really make a decision different from god's knowledge, but you don't truly have free will. One negates the other.

Does that help?

 

[02ranger]

Intelligent Design Theory? Really? Someone is trying to pass intelligent design off as a theory?

Intelligent design theory: Someone wrote a book a few thousand years ago explaining mankind's existence based on nothing but fairy tales. Now, a few thousand years later, we are debating the fairy tales vs modern science?

Yeah, intelligent design is a nice concept...well crafted words to get ignorant people to believe...kind of like the bible which has been translated many many times throughout history along with religion into the manipulative mess it is today.

Religion is no different than politics, just a bunch of lies from people who want nothing but to line their pockets and control you.

I REALLY need to change the name of this thread. Can I do that or does a mod have to? If I can do it, how do I?

 

[MJinZ]

Still false. If God knows inerrantly that the next roll will be a 6, then it must be a 6, or else God's knowledge is not inerrant. All appearances of randomness are only that -- appearances.

You are telling a theoretical God what randomness is?

Randomness is proven - it is set - fact. End of story.

Are you really trying to argue that Randomness thus disproves God (as Christians and others envision them)?

Random - by its very definition:

Having no definite aim or purpose; not sent or guided in a particular direction; made, done, occurring, etc., without method or conscious choice; haphazard.
​

Also, in statistics, as:

Governed by or involving equal chances for each of the actual or hypothetical members of a population; (also) produced or obtained by such a process, and therefore unpredictable in detail.



​

A theoretical Omniscient God knowing what the answer to the question (a random dice roll) is does not invalidate the fact that the dice roll operates independently of the God based solely on Randomness.

At the same time, a random dice roll resulting a random result in a set timeline (a very long Movie of the Universe that God is watching if you will) doesn't mean the "God" watching the movie hasn't seen it all before, nor does it mean that each time God watches the movie, it changes into a different movie.

If you wish to get into that, we will have to explore Many Worlds theories and other multiple realities and parallel universe theories.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

I think I get what you're saying. I'm gonna take a crack at it, correct me if I'm wrong.

Assuming god is omniscient and omnipotent, the things he knows now MUST come to pass because if they didn't then it would mean he's not omniscient. If for instance I decided to go to bed right now, and god thought I was going to stay up all night, then I've just proven god is not omniscient. Obviously, if you accept that god is all-knowing(tired of typing omni-blahblah) then I can't do anything to contradict his knowledge of my decisions. I think I get your point now. It actually makes sense. I keep getting hung up on god being like us when I talked about perspective, but forgetting the all-knowing and all-powerful part. I don't like the idea that I don't have free will. Of course, you avoid the problem all together if you have a god that doesn't know all or no god at all. But that's a little further off-topic than I already am.

Was I close?

You got it, and you are pretty much at the point where i was when i understood it after confirmation, see i'm Jewish by heritage but was raised Catholic, once i got the whole omniscience and "god has a plan for everyone and everything" part then i couldn't reconcile with the church anymore, led to being homeless at age 13 but all in all i'm better off because of it.

 

[JulesMaximus]

I REALLY need to change the name of this thread. Can I do that or does a mod have to? If I can do it, how do I?

My point still stands!!!

 

[DominionSeraph]

DNA codes for Animals.
Kittens exist vs non-existence.
DNA is meaningful, as Animals exist, whether or not there is anything to assign a value to them.

The existence of kittens is not the same as the nonexistence of kittens. Obviously.

DNA has an effect on the universe. If you're using that definition of meaning, i.e., "the DNA of cats means 'kittens'," then yes.
But that's a pretty bland definition. I would use "effect" or "consequence" and leave meaningful to more meaningful meanings.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Whether God is watching the beginning of the movie or the end of the movie is irrelevant. God is watching the movie - he's not IN the movie.

If you are saying that all Future = Past, then do you really believe the Hitler did not have free will?

If ALL FUTURE is already known (god is omniscient, he knows all future) then god already knows everything that will ever happen.

Hitler could not have free will with an omniscient god, it's that fucking simple because when god made the universe, he already knew what would happen, from then until the end of time itself and god cannot be wrong. So everything that happens is already recorded in gods future, exactly as it has to be for god to know it and exactly as it has to be for god to be right because he cannot be wrong.

Do you at least get it NOW? A little bit? Pretty please with sugar on top?

 

[MJinZ]

DNA has an effect on the universe. If you're using that definition of meaning, then yes.
But that's a pretty bland definition. I would use "effect" or "consequence" and leave meaningful to more meaningful meanings.

Well you obviously don't think Kittens are meaningful then. :'(

 

[MJinZ]

If ALL FUTURE is already known (god is omniscient, he knows all future) then god already knows everything that will ever happen.

Hitler could not have free will with an omniscient god, it's that fucking simple because when god made the universe, he already knew what would happen, from then until the end of time itself and god cannot be wrong. So everything that happens is already recorded in gods future, exactly as it has to be for god to know it and exactly as it has to be for god to be right because he cannot be wrong.

Do you at least get it NOW? A little bit? Pretty please with sugar on top?

No, now you are saying God created the Universe and is apparently omnipotent.

Omniscience is already a stretch. Let's just say God can go against all Logic and do whatever and anything can exist even self-contradictions while we're at it?

Perhaps we should use "omniscient being" to be clear. My usage so far is a Joe Schmoe Seer who knows everything but is unable to affect anything.

 

[bfdd]

When I was in my early twenties, I went into an auto parts store for something or other. There was this stunning woman fumbling with a quart of oil, trying not to get it all over herself. I went over and helped her out and we started to chat. To my surprise she said she was on her way home and said she was going to make lunch and would I like go come over.

So naturally I said "Yes". When I got there she said it was refreshing to meet someone with manners and a sense of humor. Anyway the afternoon wore on and yes, one thing led to another and she was great.

Now the punchline- As I left she handed me her business card, which described her as a "masseuse". She was a high powered hooker who thought she'd give me a freebie as a reward

And that is my thought for today on ID and evolution. Thanks for your attention.

i like you. not in a gay way. in a man respect way.

 

[PhineasJWhoopee]

If ALL FUTURE is already known (god is omniscient, he knows all future) then god already knows everything that will ever happen.

Hitler could not have free will with an omniscient god, it's that fucking simple because when god made the universe, he already knew what would happen, from then until the end of time itself and god cannot be wrong. So everything that happens is already recorded in gods future, exactly as it has to be for god to know it and exactly as it has to be for god to be right because he cannot be wrong.

Do you at least get it NOW? A little bit? Pretty please with sugar on top?

God isn't restricted by time, he exists in the past/present/future. Why couldn't Hitler have free will?

I guess a reasonable question would be if God knew what Hitler was going to do, then why didn't he stop it. The reason, of course, is that if he did, Hitler would have ceased to have free will.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

I think the biggest problem is that very very few in this thread (there are now four of us) knows what omniscience and inerrance means.

Premises put forth:

1. God knows all future, as if it was recorded ahead of time
2. God is infallible, he cannot be wrong

How then can free will exist?

1. Phineas plea "i'm going to disregard all logic and say that it does anyway and i will refuse to understand how it doesn't out of neccessity for my faith"
2. MjinZ plea "i'm too drunk to have a clue so i'm going to ramble on about other irrelevant shit for a good long while now"

O2ranger got it and that is good enough for me so i'll bid you all a fond farewell and go see if there is something to eat around here.

Cheers.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

You are telling a theoretical God what randomness is?

Randomness is proven - it is set - fact. End of story.

No. That is not a given. As has been adequately demonstrated, randomness is incompatible with the existence of a being with inerrant omniscience.

A theoretical Omniscient God knowing what the answer to the question (a random dice roll) is does not invalidate the fact that the dice roll operates independently of the God based solely on Randomness.

You can continue to repeat this as much as you can muster, but it doesn't get any less false with each repetition.

At the same time, a random dice roll resulting a random result in a set timeline (a very long Movie of the Universe that God is watching if you will) doesn't mean the "God" watching the movie hasn't seen it all before, nor does it mean that each time God watches the movie, it changes into a different movie.

If the movie has been seen and it does not change, then there are no events other than what was seen in the movie. Everything has a probability of 1.

If you wish to get into that, we will have to explore Many Worlds theories and other multiple realities and parallel universe theories.

No. We're dealing with your inability to grasp a basic reductio. Please stay focused.

 

[DominionSeraph]

but that does not mean the dice were not, are not, and will not continue to be random.

Yes, it does.
An event ceases to be random once it's happened and its probability becomes 1.0.
With an omniscient being, the probability was never anything other than 1.0.

If the probability was never anything other than 1.0 (set), when did it have a probability of 0.5? (or in this case 0.166666666)

Any claim of 0.16666666 has God there saying, "LOL nope. Got here ahead of you. It's 1.0. <Trollface.jpg>."

 

[02ranger]

My point still stands!!!

lol. I'm not arguing with that, just saying I need to change it. It doesn't really fit with the direction this thread has taken anyway. I'm thinking "god vs. ATOT?"