Question about common Christian belief

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Amused
Omnipotence implies, nay, demands omniscience by it's very definition.

Are we going to start arguing over what the word "it" means?

That the existence of one implies or demands the existence of the other still does not make them the same thing. And that's not necessary true either, for in the limited scope of human understanding, omniscience and omnipotence can come into contradiction, as this argument points out.

For example, official Catholic theology on this is simple. Human Free Will exists because God's omnipotence created it. So imagine your argument flipped completely around. If God is omnipotent, and He decreed something in His omnipotence, how then can that something not exist? What you're saying is that His omniscience is greater that His omnipotence, that is knowledge is more powerful than His power. That's why I said, knowledge is not power.

 

[Gunslinger08]

Originally posted by: Literati
What I don't understand, is the willingness to be so scorned towards the possibility of there being a God.

When we die, if there isn't one, than I am just going to die, that's it, end of the line, finito. No better off than the next man.

Now if there is a God, I will die in his good graces, thus securing my extremely comfortable position in the after life. All while trying to live a good and honest life on the strength of my religeon. Which is what makes me happy.

But, if you decide to demean and disrespect and downright defy his existance, you're fvcked.

That's a pretty big gamble, so good luck with that.

http://www.answers.com/pascal%27s+wager&r=67

 

[Literati]

Originally posted by: joshsquall
http://www.answers.com/pascal%27s+wager&r=67

Thank you.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Literati
What I don't understand, is the willingness to be so scorned towards the possibility of there being a God.

When we die, if there isn't one, than I am just going to die, that's it, end of the line, finito. No better off than the next man.

Now if there is a God, I will die in his good graces, thus securing my extremely comfortable position in the after life. All while trying to live a good and honest life on the strength of my religeon. Which is what makes me happy.

But, if you decide to demean and disrespect and downright defy his existance, you're fvcked.

That's a pretty big gamble, so good luck with that.

Hmm... I'm not one to engage in Pascal's wager, as it too is a logical fallacy.

Instead, I look at religion and the idea of God very differently, and without the need of the selfish hope of afterlife salvation. My perspective is that the philosophies of the major religions are generally wise, true, and right even without the existence the God. This is particularly true of the Gospels of Jesus, which teach a path for peace and love for all peoples even within this lifetime. Therefore, they are worth defending even without faith.

 

[Gunslinger08]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Literati
What I don't understand, is the willingness to be so scorned towards the possibility of there being a God.

When we die, if there isn't one, than I am just going to die, that's it, end of the line, finito. No better off than the next man.

Now if there is a God, I will die in his good graces, thus securing my extremely comfortable position in the after life. All while trying to live a good and honest life on the strength of my religeon. Which is what makes me happy.

But, if you decide to demean and disrespect and downright defy his existance, you're fvcked.

That's a pretty big gamble, so good luck with that.

Hmm... I'm not one to engage in Pascal's wager, as it too is a logical fallacy.

Instead, I look at religion and the idea of God very differently, and without the need of the selfish hope of afterlife salvation. My perspective is that the philosophies of the major religions are generally wise, true, and right even without the existence the God. This is particularly true of the Gospels of Jesus, which teach a path for peace and love for all peoples even within this lifetime. Therefore, they are worth defending even without faith.

I agree. That's why I believe that if Heaven and God exist, non-believers who lived upright lives will be admitted into Heaven. How vain is God to not accept a good person who just didn't sing his praises.

 

[Literati]

Originally posted by: Vic
Hmm... I'm not one to engage in Pascal's wager, as it too is a logical fallacy.

Instead, I look at religion and the idea of God very differently, and without the need of the selfish hope of afterlife salvation. My perspective is that the philosophies of the major religions are generally wise, true, and right even without the existence the God. This is particularly true of the Gospels of Jesus, which teach a path for peace and love for all peoples even within this lifetime. Therefore, they are worth defending even without faith.

That is a great point and I agree completely with you.

That was very well put.

 

[Literati]

Originally posted by: joshsquall
I agree. That's why I believe that if Heaven and God exist, non-believers who lived upright lives will be admitted into Heaven. How vain is God to not accept a good person who just didn't sing his praises.

I also agree with this.

As a Christian (I guess, I'm not so sure even the Christian faith would call me one because I don't blindly follow everything they propose) I am not so sure if I believe in the whole Heaven or Hell idea.

I think it could just be used as a way to steer people towards the greater good through simplicity of foundation and the ease at which is can be applied to the way someone should lead their life.

As a loose example, it would be easier and more productive to get A to B with an implementation of such ideas.

If I know reading books at a young age, will benefit a child, I would be more inclined to reward the child with say, candy whenever s/he is to approach and utilize the book.

Where as I would punish the child if s/he were to play with a pack of cigarettes.

Instead of actually trying to explain my complex reasoning to a childs simplistic mind.

Going back to religeons flaw of being a devine truth filtered through a flawed channel.

Just because I were to sit down and try to explain my reasoning to the child, even though it is right, doesn't mean that child has the ability to comprehend it.

 

[Gunslinger08]

Originally posted by: Literati

Originally posted by: joshsquall
I agree. That's why I believe that if Heaven and God exist, non-believers who lived upright lives will be admitted into Heaven. How vain is God to not accept a good person who just didn't sing his praises.

I also agree with this.

As a Christian (I guess, I'm not so sure even the Christian faith would call me one because I don't blindly follow everything they propose) I am not so sure if I believe in the whole Heaven or Hell idea.

I think it could just be used as a way to steer people towards the greater good through simplicity of foundation and the ease at which is can be applied to the way someone should lead their life.

As a loose example, it would be easier and more productive to get A to B with an implementation of such ideas.

If I know reading books at a young age, will benefit a child, I would be more inclined to reward the child with say, candy whenever s/he is to approach and utilize the book.

Where as I would punish the child if s/he were to play with a pack of cigarettes.

Instead of actually trying to explain my complex reasoning to a childs simplistic mind.

Going back to religeons flaw of being a devine truth filtered through a flawed channel.

Just because I were to sit down and try to explain my reasoning to the child, even though it is right, doesn't mean that child has the ability to comprehend it.

You have landed on my beliefs, almost exactly.

 

[ITJunkie]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: KarenMarie

Originally posted by: Amused

You're putting the horse before the cart here.

If he knows what you will do before he creates you, he has only one choice, to create you or not to create you. Everything after that is preordained and out of your control. Since he is omnipotent, only HE can change what is preordained, not you.

To create or not create is two choices.

And from what we were taught growing up... God cannot change his own rules/laws. If he did, he would not be God. It sounds silly now that Itype it, but it is what we were taught.

God creates rules/laws. He gives free will. That is why He is God. If he were to change any of that... He would negate himself.

Um, no. Now you're using scripture to support a logical argument. Think about this a second, will you?

Freewill is a concept. Saying it's a "law" only refers to what you've read in scripture. Scripture is not "law" it is opinion.

Look up circular logic, OK?

You cannot use the bible to support an argument over the validity of the bible.

Very well said! :thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[sixone]

Originally posted by: JetsFanatic

Originally posted by: Hyperblaze
God wants all of us to go through a path in life. But we have the freewill to decide what choices we make. God brings people in our lives to help us along. But we can just as easily refuse their help.

Ditto

I would like to add that GOD knows what are choices are going to be, because
he is the begining and the end, the alpha & the omega. There is no time in GOD.
So we have free will to choose. But GOD knows what are choice will be.

can be very confusing at times.

Well said, gentlemen.

 

[datalink7]

Originally posted by: Literati

Originally posted by: joshsquall
http://www.answers.com/pascal%27s+wager&r=67

Thank you.

People will then often say ?But surely it?s better to remain an Agnostic just in case?? This, to me, suggests such a level of silliness and muddle that I usually edge out of the conversation rather than get sucked into it. (If it turns out that I?ve been wrong all along, and there is in fact a god, and if it further turned out that this kind of legalistic, cross-your-fingers-behind-your-back, Clintonian hair-splitting impressed him, then I think I would chose not to worship him anyway.)?Douglas Adams

 

[Trevelyan]

Originally posted by: Kipper

Originally posted by: Trevelyan
Free will is how you respond to the things that happen to you, not just being able to determine what happens to you. You have free will in that you can always make a decision to submit to God, or reject God, regardless of the situation you find yourself in. Now, whether your whole life is pre-determined or not, it doesn't really effect you because you still don't know your whole life ahead of time. No one really doubts their ability to make their own choices... it is evident every day that we do.

If that bolded statement is true then the actual freedom of will is an illusion. Free will is generally acknowledged in the ethical literature to mean "to have been able to have done otherwise." The presence of actual courses of action which could have been taken in a deterministic (fate) path is ONE, and any other seemingly available courses of action are precluded because there is only one path to follow. Your statement is contradictory.

Well, what I mean is that in a PRACTICAL way, it has no bearing on us.

If you assume that there is a predetermined course for your life to take, and if you assume that despite your best efforts you cannot know what that course is, then by all practical standards you still possess free will. To assume an all-knowing God you can reach the conclusion that He knows you so well that He knows every choice you will ever make under any circumstances. From your perspective, you are still determining your path in life. Perhaps in reality, maybe from God's perspective, you are actually discovering it... who knows?

All I'm saying, it takes a lot of assumptions to go either way, and in the most practical and day-to-day way of life it certainly appears that we are free to choose how we behave... so that's what I go with, personally. But I'm no philosopher.

 

[dxkj]

This is a hard question to ask, because not even all Christians believe the same thing.


Some believe in predestination... others don't.



Consider this, if everything that happens is predestined to happen, then that means that every person that goes to heaven and goes to hell is decided before they born, and they have no power to change this. This means that God chose out certain people to be saved, and certain people to be damned, and no matter what you do your path is set.


Of course you can imagine the dangerous type of mindset this presents, but many believe it to be true.


The sticky part is that if God knows everything, and I mean EVERYTHING then he knows who will go to heaven and go to hell... if he knows the end, then that means you are destined for a certain end.... and nothing you can do will change that.


Others believe that is a conflict with Jesus (God's son) not knowing everything when he was on earth, because a few times he would seem surprised, or not realize a certain thing was happening, but that can be explained away with becoming human, or God withholding information from himself.



So really its a silly question to ask and you should be ashamed.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: joshsquall

In order for forward time travel to be possible, you have to know the result of every decision made between now and then.

That is simply not true. If you could merely suspend yourself from aging and let time go on as normal, you could in essence travel forward in time, at least from your perspective. From everyone else's perspective you'd just be a crazy guy that's being stored in a cryogenic state in a lab somewhere.

The way you propose it, you're talking about recreating the future, so in that case you'd need to know everything ahead of time. But like I said, just freeze yourself in time, let time progress normally, and re-emerge in 200 years.

 

[Tab]

God's plan was to have me kill my Car?

Fvck that.

 

[sandorski]

Ever go to a funeral of someone you knew and listen to a Funeral Director/Minister wax on about someone they never knew? Same thing here, spew kind words not as Universal Truth, but as a way to make people not feel like sh1t.

 

[lowfatbaconboy]

for those of you arguing that omniscience doesn't go with omnipotence:

om·nip·o·tent Audio pronunciation of "omnipotence" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (m-np-tnt)
adj.
- Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful. See Usage Note at infinite.

if you are "all-powerful" wouldn't one of those powers be knowing everything?
b/c if you didn't know everything then that would be a power you didn't have and thus wouldn't be omnipotent
just an odd observation

 

[EGGO]

Originally posted by: joshsquall
Okay, so I always hear people say that "God put them in situations for a reason" and "God brought people into their lives." Basically, I think this means that these people believe in fate and unavoidable events in your life.

However, there is also the issue of free will. How can we truly have free will, if our lives are pre-determined? If everything that happens in our lives is because of God, how do we have a choice? I see life as the result of your actions and the actions of every other person before you (and currently living at the same time as you).

Any thoughts?

I got banned from Rapture Ready for asking that if I recall.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: EGGO
I got banned from Rapture Ready for asking that if I recall.

Calvinists typically don't like to talk about how they believe in predestination (and against free will) as they know that it is contrary to the Bible (and yet they tend to be the biggest Bible-thumping Holyrollers of all).


lowfatbaconboy, I already explained that. Scroll up. Knowledge is not power, despite what the media has brainwashed people into believing. A person could have all the knowledge in the world but it would useless if he never applied it. Action is power.

 

[randalee]

I don't believe in our lives being planned out/destined for us. However, when I come to a point that I'm making a decision, I'm not able to go.... "Ok God, I'm going to choose option A!" and then choose option B as if to try and fool Him. He knows the beginning to the end, and knows what decisions we will make given certain circumstances. It's all a test to see if we can prove ourselves worthy of returning to His presence.

 

[dxkj]

Originally posted by: lowfatbaconboy
for those of you arguing that omniscience doesn't go with omnipotence:

om·nip·o·tent Audio pronunciation of "omnipotence" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (m-np-tnt)
adj.
- Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful. See Usage Note at infinite.

if you are "all-powerful" wouldn't one of those powers be knowing everything?
b/c if you didn't know everything then that would be a power you didn't have and thus wouldn't be omnipotent
just an odd observation

I understand your observation but its a little less cut and dry like that.

Someone who is omnipotent should have the power to do anything they want.... in this case the all powerful being would be able to remake all of time how they wanted to, but that doesnt mean they know what the future would have been like if they hadnt exerted their influence... but i guess that is kinda irrelevant

 

[Joemonkey]

Originally posted by: lowfatbaconboy
for those of you arguing that omniscience doesn't go with omnipotence:

om·nip·o·tent Audio pronunciation of "omnipotence" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (m-np-tnt)
adj.
- Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful. See Usage Note at infinite.

if you are "all-powerful" wouldn't one of those powers be knowing everything?
b/c if you didn't know everything then that would be a power you didn't have and thus wouldn't be omnipotent
just an odd observation

I think it's easier to look at it the other way. If you are omniscient, you know EVERYTHING... as in everything that has happened, everything that is happening, everything that will happen, and how to be omnipotent. Doesn't it make sense that if you know everything you know how to be omnipotent?

Logic dictates omniscience == omnipotence

I'm agnostic, still trying to decide if it is even possible to be atheist. I realize there are people out there who require religion in their lives because the good of humanity isn't enough of a reason to not do bad things, they must be given the idea of heaven and hell. I for one thank God religion is there for those people!!