Question about common Christian belief

[Amused]

Folks, if the supposed god/s is omnipotent, he is, by default, omniscient.

This means he is all knowing. He knows what your entire life will be, including all "decisions" you'll make before he even creates you.

This completely and totally negates free will.

 

[Literati]

Originally posted by: eigen
fairy tales dont have to be consistent.Only comforting.

Ahh yes, always easier to throw stones at something which you don't understand and ignorantly remain in the same comfortable and unchanged frame of mind instead of actually lending yourself to the terrible hard work in which someone would have to endure to actually try to understand.

Ahh yes, better to sit in the back of the room and criticize the point of contention from a comfortable distance as opposed to actually having to put in the effort needed to take part in it.

 

[Kipper]

Originally posted by: Amused
Folks, if the supposed god/s is omnipotent, he is, by default, omniscient.

This means he is all knowing. He knows what your entire life will be, including all "decisions" you'll make before he even creates you.

This completely and totally negates free will.

This is so plainly obvious, yet people maintain that omniscience and free will are compatible.

 

[KarenMarie]

Originally posted by: Amused
Folks, if the supposed god/s is omnipotent, he is, by default, omniscient.

This means he is all knowing. He knows what your entire life will be, including all "decisions" you'll make before he even creates you.

This completely and totally negates free will.

I dont see how knowing it negates free will. If God were to do something to intervene and change the outcome of something sure... but just by knowing does not negate it, right?

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: KarenMarie

Originally posted by: Amused
Folks, if the supposed god/s is omnipotent, he is, by default, omniscient.

This means he is all knowing. He knows what your entire life will be, including all "decisions" you'll make before he even creates you.

This completely and totally negates free will.

I dont see how knowing it negates free will. If God were to do something to intervene and change the outcome of something sure... but just by knowing does not negate it, right?

Nope. It means that it's pre-ordained. He knows the future, and only he can change it, since only he is omnipotent. The "choices" you make will have been already known before you came to be.

 

[Gunslinger08]

Originally posted by: KarenMarie

Originally posted by: Amused
Folks, if the supposed god/s is omnipotent, he is, by default, omniscient.

This means he is all knowing. He knows what your entire life will be, including all "decisions" you'll make before he even creates you.

This completely and totally negates free will.

I dont see how knowing it negates free will. If God were to do something to intervene and change the outcome of something sure... but just by knowing does not negate it, right?

If God knows your answers before the questions are asked, then there was only one possible path through that situation.. which means you don't have free will to take any path you choose.

 

[Kipper]

Originally posted by: KarenMarie

Originally posted by: Amused
Folks, if the supposed god/s is omnipotent, he is, by default, omniscient.

This means he is all knowing. He knows what your entire life will be, including all "decisions" you'll make before he even creates you.

This completely and totally negates free will.

I dont see how knowing it negates free will. If God were to do something to intervene and change the outcome of something sure... but just by knowing does not negate it, right?

Knowledge of the future assumes it is fixed and unchangeable, meaning that the path from birth to death is fixed. By definition free will assumes that we are able to choose any number of paths from birth to death. If we are able to choose freely between two paths, we possess free will. This assumes that the future as such is indeterminate until that decision is made or that action is performed. A determinate future precludes this power of choice, meaning free will is nonexistent.

 

[Literati]

Originally posted by: Amused
Folks, if the supposed god/s is omnipotent, he is, by default, omniscient.

This means he is all knowing. He knows what your entire life will be, including all "decisions" you'll make before he even creates you.

This completely and totally negates free will.

No it doesn't, knowing what is going to happen, and forcing someone to take those actions so as to fulfill your expectations are two different things.

Say if we could go to the future and see a man commit suicide.

Now we rewind back into present day, the man commits suicide and you knew he was going to, it was still his choice to do so, and our knowledge of what was going to happen has no effect on that mans decision to do so.

Thus we did not impede or hinder his freewill at all, we just knew what his decision was going to be beforehand, all while not influencing or even remotely changing the course of his chosen actions.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: Amused
The human mind has a strange need to apply patterns and "reasons" to random things.

This is why we see shapes in clouds, bagels, and freeway overpasses.

We also apply this to actions and events. The "3" myth, the full moon myth, and so on...

Wait a second, are you trying to tell me that when I turn my TV to channel 99, the static really isn't talking to me?

 

[eigen]

Originally posted by: Literati

Originally posted by: eigen
fairy tales dont have to be consistent.Only comforting.

Ahh yes, always easier to throw stones at something which you don't understand and ignorantly remain in the same comfortable and unchanged frame of mind instead of actually lending yourself to the terrible hard work in which someone would have to endure to actually try to understand.

Ahh yes, better to sit in the back of the room and criticize the point of contention from a comfortable distance as opposed to actually having to put in the effort needed to take part in it.

I understand.Thats what I believe.Did you attend a private religous academy.Did you take 4 years of theology classes taught by a former Jesuit priest.Did you ask these questions for 4 years and not get a single straight answer.Don't give me that crap about hardwork.How do you think it feels for a 14yr to lose his faith.Do you think I had a jolly good time realizing that all the people around me were DELUSIONAL.I came to my conclusion through reading about human psychology,evolutionary history and politics.But thats okay.Because between you an me there exist a gulf, A gulf of reason which neither of us can ever cross.


But Oh yes you understand.You realize from your point of view it is Blasphemey.How can you even claim to understand gods plan and vision and ablities.In other words shove your high horse up your ass.

 

[Gunslinger08]

Originally posted by: Literati

Originally posted by: Amused
Folks, if the supposed god/s is omnipotent, he is, by default, omniscient.

This means he is all knowing. He knows what your entire life will be, including all "decisions" you'll make before he even creates you.

This completely and totally negates free will.

No it doesn't, knowing what is going to happen, and forcing someone to take those actions so as to fulfill your expectations are two different things.

Say if we could go to the future and see a man commit suicide.

Now we rewind back into present day, the man commits suicide and you knew he was going to, it was still his choice to do so, and our knowledge of what was going to happen has no effect on that mans decision to do so.

Thus we did not impede or hinder his freewill at all, we just knew what his decision was going to be beforehand, all while not influencing or even remotely changing the course of his chosen actions.

Flawed argument, based on a faulty view of time. You can't travel to the future, without knowing the result of every decision ever made to that point. Just travelling to the future assumes predetermined actions.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: Amused
Folks, if the supposed god/s is omnipotent, he is, by default, omniscient.

This means he is all knowing. He knows what your entire life will be, including all "decisions" you'll make before he even creates you.

This completely and totally negates free will.

But how else can he send people to hell if he didn't let them make their own mistakes? You gotta throw people in hell, you know.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Literati

Originally posted by: Amused
Folks, if the supposed god/s is omnipotent, he is, by default, omniscient.

This means he is all knowing. He knows what your entire life will be, including all "decisions" you'll make before he even creates you.

This completely and totally negates free will.

No it doesn't, knowing what is going to happen, and forcing someone to take those actions so as to fulfill your expectations are two different things.

Say if we could go to the future and see a man commit suicide.

Now we rewind back into present day, the man commits suicide and you knew he was going to, it was still his choice to do so, and our knowledge of what was going to happen has no effect on that mans decision to do so.

Thus we did not impede or hinder his freewill at all, we just knew what his decision was going to be beforehand, all while not influencing or even remotely changing the course of his chosen actions.

You're putting the horse before the cart here.

If he knows what you will do before he creates you, he has only one choice, to create you or not to create you. Everything after that is preordained and out of your control. Since he is omnipotent, only HE can change what is preordained, not you.

 

[KarenMarie]

Perhaps we have differing opinions on the defination of 'free will'.

To me... being able to do what one wants to do without interference is free will. It seems that others are saying that if someone/thing knows about the choices before hand then 'free will' disappears. I have a little trouble with this. If a person has a choice to do something, and I know in advance (for whatever reason) which choice they will take... they still have made their own choice ... as long as I did not interfere with the process of making that choice.

As long as I dont try to stop or influence their choice... it is still their choice.

 

[Literati]

Originally posted by: joshsquall

Looking at the other side of your example: Didn't the woman also exercise her freewill to be there to meet the man, to love him, and to try to clean him up? If you don't consider her side, you are saying that God placed her there.. which goes against free will.

That's a great point. I don't claim to know anything other than what I believe so take it as such. I am not saying this is the way it is, I'm simply saying this is how I think this works.

Originally posted by: joshsquall

Looking at the other side of your example: Didn't the woman also exercise her freewill to be there to meet the man, to love him, and to try to clean him up?

Yes.

Originally posted by: joshsquallIf you don't consider her side, you are saying that God placed her there.. which goes against free will.[/quote]

I think it's more of an influence. An influence in events and situations that would "usher" her toward being put in that situation.

A mouse in a maze for instance. The mouse has the ability to go and sit and do whatever he wants in that maze. But if we were to put things down to alter it's path and influence it to take certain actions, food etc., the mouse is still directed towards what we want it to do, all while still maintaining it's freewill to just do whatever it wants.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: KarenMarie
Perhaps we have differing opinions on the defination of 'free will'.

To me... being able to do what one wants to do without interference is free will. It seems that others are saying that if someone/thing knows about the choices before hand then 'free will' disappears. I have a little trouble with this. If a person has a choice to do something, and I know in advance (for whatever reason) which choice they will take... they still have made their own choice ... as long as I did not interfere with the process of making that choice.

As long as I dont try to stop or influence their choice... it is still their choice.

If their "choices" are predetermined by an omnipotent god, then they have no "freewill."

 

[eigen]

Originally posted by: KarenMarie
Perhaps we have differing opinions on the defination of 'free will'.

To me... being able to do what one wants to do without interference is free will. It seems that others are saying that if someone/thing knows about the choices before hand then 'free will' disappears. I have a little trouble with this. If a person has a choice to do something, and I know in advance (for whatever reason) which choice they will take... they still have made their own choice ... as long as I did not interfere with the process of making that choice.

As long as I dont try to stop or influence their choice... it is still their choice.

If you write a program ( assume its correct) and you give it some set of initial data.You can then at any point in time give a complete description of the program. The state of the program at any point is determined by the design and the input.Both of which the programmer is in control of.

 

[KarenMarie]

Originally posted by: Amused

You're putting the horse before the cart here.

If he knows what you will do before he creates you, he has only one choice, to create you or not to create you. Everything after that is preordained and out of your control. Since he is omnipotent, only HE can change what is preordained, not you.

To create or not create is two choices.

And from what we were taught growing up... God cannot change his own rules/laws. If he did, he would not be God. It sounds silly now that Itype it, but it is what we were taught.

God creates rules/laws. He gives free will. That is why He is God. If he were to change any of that... He would negate himself.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: KarenMarie
Perhaps we have differing opinions on the defination of 'free will'.

To me... being able to do what one wants to do without interference is free will. It seems that others are saying that if someone/thing knows about the choices before hand then 'free will' disappears. I have a little trouble with this. If a person has a choice to do something, and I know in advance (for whatever reason) which choice they will take... they still have made their own choice ... as long as I did not interfere with the process of making that choice.

As long as I dont try to stop or influence their choice... it is still their choice.

They are saying that if God is all-knowing AND he controls the universe, then you can't really have free will. You are under his control- otherwise he wouldn't be all-powerful. And your actions are already known to him- otherwise he's not all-knowing. If he's all-knowing, he already knows the choice that you're going to make. So either he's not all knowing, or you don't really have free will.

I don't believe in an all-knowing, all-powerful being. Is God capable of creating something that he can't undo? If he is, then he's not all-powerful. And if he's not, then he's not all-powerful.

 

[Micah]

Originally posted by: Amused
Folks, if the supposed god/s is omnipotent, he is, by default, omniscient.

This means he is all knowing. He knows what your entire life will be, including all "decisions" you'll make before he even creates you.

This completely and totally negates free will.

God isn't even required to get rid of free will. If you believe that all actions follow from physical principles, then it is possible to deny free will using only the laws of nature.

Take a look at determinism and you'll see what I mean. I think determinism makes a lot of sense. But then, of course I do, since my liking of determinism was pre-determined since the beginning of time. How's that for confusing?

If the lack of free will makes you uncomfortable, look at it from this angle: Your current physical and mental state are the result of billions of years of hard work by the laws of nature!

However, I think that the illusion of free will is almost as good as the real thing. We feel like we have free will. No one can tell us what we will and won't do, since no one understands the laws of nature well enough to build a predictive model of human behavior.

So, the only one who can deny you the feeling of free will is God (due to omniscience), and I'm safe since I'm an atheist

 

[Literati]

Originally posted by: eigen

Originally posted by: Literati

Originally posted by: eigen
fairy tales dont have to be consistent.Only comforting.

Ahh yes, always easier to throw stones at something which you don't understand and ignorantly remain in the same comfortable and unchanged frame of mind instead of actually lending yourself to the terrible hard work in which someone would have to endure to actually try to understand.

Ahh yes, better to sit in the back of the room and criticize the point of contention from a comfortable distance as opposed to actually having to put in the effort needed to take part in it.

I understand.Thats what I believe.Did you attend a private religous academy.Did you take 4 years of theology classes taught by a former Jesuit priest.Did you ask these questions for 4 years and not get a single straight answer.Don't give me that crap about hardwork.How do you think it feels for a 14yr to lose his faith.Do you think I had a jolly good time realizing that all the people around me were DELUSIONAL.I came to my conclusion through reading about human psychology,evolutionary history and politics.But thats okay.Because between you an me there exist a gulf, A gulf of reason which neither of us can ever cross.


But Oh yes you understand.You realize from your point of view it is Blasphemey.How can you even claim to understand gods plan and vision and ablities.In other words shove your high horse up your ass.

Here come the inevitable personal insults used to gain some type of ground regardless of how it is gained in order to strengthen the rest of your position.

For the record, I never claimed to understand Gods plan and vision and abilities. In fact, let me quote myself and be done with you.

"I am not saying this is the way it is, I'm simply saying this is how I think this works. "

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: KarenMarie

Originally posted by: Amused

You're putting the horse before the cart here.

If he knows what you will do before he creates you, he has only one choice, to create you or not to create you. Everything after that is preordained and out of your control. Since he is omnipotent, only HE can change what is preordained, not you.

To create or not create is two choices.

And from what we were taught growing up... God cannot change his own rules/laws. If he did, he would not be God. It sounds silly now that Itype it, but it is what we were taught.

God creates rules/laws. He gives free will. That is why He is God. If he were to change any of that... He would negate himself.

Um, no. Now you're using scripture to support a logical argument. Think about this a second, will you?

Freewill is a concept. Saying it's a "law" only refers to what you've read in scripture. Scripture is not "law" it is opinion.

Look up circular logic, OK?

You cannot use the bible to support an argument over the validity of the bible.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: Micah

If the lack of free will makes you uncomfortable, look at it from this angle: Your current physical and mental state are the result of billions of years of hard work by the laws of nature!

However, I think that the illusion of free will is almost as good as the real thing. We feel like we have free will. No one can tell us what we will and won't do, since no one understands the laws of nature well enough to build a predictive model of human behavior.

Welcome to the Matrix.

 

[Literati]

Originally posted by: joshsquall

Flawed argument, based on a faulty view of time. You can't travel to the future, without knowing the result of every decision ever made to that point. Just travelling to the future assumes predetermined actions.

I don't even know what you're talking about honestly. I was saying that in theory.

"You can't travel to the future, without knowing the result of every decision ever made to that point."

I'm not sure what that means.

Also, I'm Christian and I don't believe in EVERYTHING Christianity claims to be the truth.

I think the major flaw with religeon is, let's say for a moment, there is a God.

Now if he were to speak to you directly, and not us, and told you to spread his word etc.

We are experienced God through you, and not God the same way you did.

Religeon is divine idea, ideals and beliefs, filtered through human intellect, thus flawed because we all know humans aren't perfect, and we assume God is.

 

[eigen]

Originally posted by: Literati

Originally posted by: eigen

Originally posted by: Literati

Originally posted by: eigen
fairy tales dont have to be consistent.Only comforting.

Ahh yes, always easier to throw stones at something which you don't understand and ignorantly remain in the same comfortable and unchanged frame of mind instead of actually lending yourself to the terrible hard work in which someone would have to endure to actually try to understand.

Ahh yes, better to sit in the back of the room and criticize the point of contention from a comfortable distance as opposed to actually having to put in the effort needed to take part in it.

I understand.Thats what I believe.Did you attend a private religous academy.Did you take 4 years of theology classes taught by a former Jesuit priest.Did you ask these questions for 4 years and not get a single straight answer.Don't give me that crap about hardwork.How do you think it feels for a 14yr to lose his faith.Do you think I had a jolly good time realizing that all the people around me were DELUSIONAL.I came to my conclusion through reading about human psychology,evolutionary history and politics.But thats okay.Because between you an me there exist a gulf, A gulf of reason which neither of us can ever cross.


But Oh yes you understand.You realize from your point of view it is Blasphemey.How can you even claim to understand gods plan and vision and ablities.In other words shove your high horse up your ass.

Here come the inevitable personal insults used to gain some type of ground regardless of how it is gained in order to strengthen the rest of your position.

For the record, I never claimed to understand Gods plan and vision and abilities. In fact, let me quote myself and be done with you.

"I am not saying this is the way it is, I'm simply saying this is how I think this works. "

I appreciate your response.Care to take back your comment about not " putting in hardowork"...Hmm

Thanks for being done with me...Fvck GOD in the FACE.