question about catholicism and why some people really dislike it (please no flames)

[Spendthrift]

well being a protestant, all my thoughts are from observations of catholocism from the outside and from observing my catholic friends.

here goes.

i think, for some of the reasons stated above, that many "recovering catholics" feel like theyve been brainwashed. catholic liturgy is much more set than protestant churches and are repeated until they are stuck in your head. also i feel that many times the church merely tells you what to believe and not the reasons behind it (as stated in previous posts).

also, while the church denies it, catholocism has a works oriented feeling to it (although the church officially believes that men are saved by faith in Christ). which means that many catholics have the impression that God is sitting in heaven with His ledger keeping track of sins vs. good deeds to determine who will get into heaven. confession to the clergy and pennance help perpetuate this feeling.

all in all this leaves catholics with quite a heavy mental burden to carry. and when you get tired of feeling weighed down by it (fed up) its much easier to drop your faith all together than continue on or search for spiritual Truth.

feel free to correct if you disagree.

 

[DaveH]

I'm born and raised Catholic, teach at a Catholic university (Gonzaga), and many of the appeal I admire most are deeply comitted catholics.

At the same time, I am saddened and disheartened by much of what is done in the name of the Church, including by the hierarchy and our own University president (a Jesuit.)

Jean, I have no idea why you were excommunicated, but that saddens me too. I know you only from the boards, but I am sure it is the church's loss.

 

"Study the bible and you'll see how much different it is from Catholocism."

Really? It actually depends on what Bible you speak of. In case you don't know, if you scout different regions and different categories of Christianity, you'll uncover a bunch of books not in the typical protestant Bible.

In any case, Go Punk, it also puzzles me how people--amongst them Catholics themselves--speak so negatively about the Catholic church as though it were some oppressive entity/occult. I think people are as free as it is to make decisions on what religion they want to pursue. I do not endorse much of the catholic belief, but I sure do respect it. It is, however, saddening when I read of the Church's conducts and the conducts of its members on matters that concern implementation of its principles and doctrines.

My guess would be the power of the church, the fact that one man decides what is acceptable to God (i.e., the middleman), interprets the bible, etc. plays a psychological factor in how non-Catholics and some Catholics (former in particular) find it subconsciously oppressive.

I think if people do not like a religion or find it oppressive, they should leave if they have as much liberty as we have in this country--rather than speak so negatively as though they were being held hostage.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

One thing I'll mention just because it hasn't been yet is that the Catholic church recognizes certain books as scripture that Protestants don't. Apocrypha, pseudepigrapha, they are basically works that don't fall within the Old or New Testaments and aren't seen as divinely inspired. Here's something I pulled up on google that talks about one of these works in particular:

http://www.new-life.net/faq013.htm

 

"One thing I'll mention just because it hasn't been yet is that the Catholic church recognizes certain books as scripture that Protestants don't."

Really? Gonad the Barbarian, I suggest you look right above your post (or below if you customised it accordingly).

I think you missed a mention of it!

 

[Elledan]

Ideologies can only exist through propaganda. In the case of religious ideologies, superstition plays a major role.

It's preferrable to shake loose the chains of the ideology which has kept you in its embrace, while whispering lies and half-truths in your ears.

It's not just Catholicism, this can be observed with any ideology.

Also interesting is that with every ideology there is a group of individuals who totally believe in the ideology and can not accept that fact that it is flawed.
We've seen already some examples of this in this thread, as have we seen examples of individuals who realized the truth.

Take a look at an ideology like Communism, Capitalism, Scientology etc. etc., and observe the same processes.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

<< "One thing I'll mention just because it hasn't been yet is that the Catholic church recognizes certain books as scripture that Protestants don't."

Really? Gonad the Barbarian, I suggest you look right above your post (or below if you customised it accordingly).

I think you missed a mention of it! >>



Yes, you mentioned it, but you hadn't posted it when I started the reply. Look at the time difference.

 

[petrek]

The Cathlic Church is a Cult. The worship of idols is Satanic. Only God can forgive sins, NOT some person who claims to speak for God while in a booth.

Edit: I attended a private Catholic School as a child, missed only a few weekly masses until my 18th birthday, and was an alter boy for 5 years.

Dave

 

[luv2chill]

<< The Cathlic Church is a Cult. The worship of idols is Satanic. Only God can forgive sins, NOT some person who claims to speak for God while in a booth. >>

Oh brother...

I like how you make Catholicism out to be this wacko religion that's against God, when it's what parented your little sect anyway. Without Catholicism you wouldn't be Christian!

I swear... think before you open your mouth and make such foolish statements. Catholicism is satanic... yeah okay

l2c

 

[petrek]

luv2chill, you got sources for your opinion?

Dave

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

<< Study the bible and you'll see how much different it is from Catholocism. >>



Depends on what you want to read in it. You can read Mein Kampf or the phonebook and interpret it so you can justify your own ideas, same with any religious book. Which is the problems with all religions: no matter what's in the book, people use it however they bloody well like.

'Go forth and overpopulate the planet so more people die from disease, hunger and wars, but do not use birthcontrol!'

 

[luv2chill]

<< luv2chill, you got sources for your opinion?

Dave >>

Here It's not my opinion. Emperor Constantine opened the doors for Christianity to spread westward by making it the official state religion of Rome. Before he came along Christianity was a small "cult", as you might refer to it.

You can respectfully disagree with another religion without making it seem like the devil's work. I'm not a fan of Catholicism either, but I don't condemn it. I don't have that right and frankly, neither do you.

l2c

 

[Sophia]

While this doesn't address the original poster's question, perhaps the Dalai Lama can teach us all something about tolerance.

"In order to develop a genuine spirit of harmony from a sound foundation of knowledge, I believe it is very important to know the fundamental differences between religious traditions. And it is possible to understand the fundamental differences, but at the same time recognize the value and potential of each religious tradition. In this way, a person may develop a balanced and harmonious perception. Some people believe that the most reasonable way to attain harmony and solve problems relating to religious intolerance is to establish one universal religion for everyone. However, I have always felt that we should have different religious traditions because human beings possess so many different mental dispositions: one religion simply cannot satisfy the needs of such a variety of people. If we try to unify the faiths of the world into one religion, we will also lose many of the qualities and richness of each particular tradition. Therefore, I feel it is better, in spite of the many quarrels in the name of religion, to maintain a variety of religious traditions. Unfortunately, while a diversity of religious traditions is more suited to serve the needs of the diverse mental dispositions among humanity, this diversity naturally possesses the potential for conflict and disagreement as well. Consequently people of every religious tradition must make an extra effort to try to transcend intolerance and misunderstanding and seek harmony. "

The Good Heart: A Buddhist Perspective on the Teachings of Jesus

 

[Yeeny]

Speaking as a Catholic, I don't feel brainwashed at all. I live my life the way I do, because of what I feel inside of me, and the kind of person I am, not because I base every choice I have on my religion. I don't care if the church suddenly announced tomorrow its ok to dance naked on the second Tuesday of every month, I still wouldn't do it. Of course we have bad people who are Catholics, there are bad in every religion, thats just a fact of life. And there are some aspects I disagree with, like divorce getting you ex communicated from the church. But I also think people expect them to change the moral rules of the church to fit their lifestyles, and that just isn't going to happen, as well it shouldn't.

Then there's the money thing. I hear this from members of the church. You want any kind of favor from the church, you better crack that purse. Oh, and check out where a huge chunk of their money goes:


Thats a crock. I have never paid for any favor from the church, ever. For anything. The Catholic churches run so many programs with that money, orphanges, Catholic Charities, that provide food, medicine and shelter to the poor and or helpless, food kitchens, etc. The priests use donations to survive, of course they do. They don't get paid, ever, unlike many other religious leaders. That money goes for their food, bills to run the churches, gas money so they can drive to weddings, wakes, funerals, hospitals to give the dying their Last Rites, home visits for the elderly and disabled, etc. Of course there is shady stuff involved, any organization that large is bound to have some bad apples in the bunch, be it religious, or commercial. And they need to get them out, hopefully that is what we see happening now. But don't judge the entire book by its cover, there are so many good priests, nuns, and just normal people in the Catholic religion, just as there is in any group of people.

 

[chrisjor]

petrek,

If you are a Catholic and are worshipping idols, you got confused somewhere along the way. I would never consider a statue of Christ or Mary as a graven image (certainly not a golden bull). Oh and by the way, the Pope is not the leader of the Mafia (doing business with the CIA, of course).


I have always considered Catholicism to be a "social" faith (as mentioned before). I was taught that being saved by grace was essential (my words), but not enough......you are obligated to your fellow man to improve his lot in life. Christ did this, so should you.

I also believe that Catholicism, due to its age (2000 years and still here), is also rooted in tradition, even though some of our traditions have no biblical basis. I do not eat meat on fridays to this day and I am not a "practicing" Catholic. I feel the Catholic Church gets a lot of disrespect due to the fact that the Church does not hold an annual conference to change our beliefs on the whims of the day. They shouldn't. Never forget that the Catholic Church in its earliest forms was the first Christian Church.

I do find it interesting that the last time I went to mass eveyone was so casually dressed, there were actually people there in jogging suits. I guess it is better to be there dressed poorly than not at all. It was as if going to mass was an afterthought on the days events. At least put in the same amount of effort as you would for a date or going out to dinner!!

I can still remember when the Church first started allowing the parishioners to receive communion in their hand, my grandmother was aghast!! She could not believe that anyone would be bold enough to touch the host. Until she passed, she always accepted communion directly from the Priest's hand to her mouth!!

Whatever you think of Catholicism, it has played an integral role in our history, and even our society. It helped to end communism, did it not?

 

[Kadarin]

<< Speaking as a Catholic, I don't feel brainwashed at all. >>



GirlFriday, I'm purposely ignoring the rest of your post in order to take issue with this particular statement.

Imagine asking a devout follower of Scientology if he/she "feels brainwashed". Or, perhaps, a Branch Davidian? The Heaven's Gate cult? Those who drank cyanide with Jim Jones in Guyana? You don't "feel brainwashed" because you truly believe. Brainwashing is something you can only recognize when you transcend your present situation and are able to perceive reality from a different angle.

 

[Geekbabe]

<<

<< Speaking as a Catholic, I don't feel brainwashed at all. >>



GirlFriday, I'm purposely ignoring the rest of your post in order to take issue with this particular statement.

Imagine asking a devout follower of Scientology if he/she "feels brainwashed". Or, perhaps, a Branch Davidian? The Heaven's Gate cult? Those who drank cyanide with Jim Jones in Guyana? You don't "feel brainwashed" because you truly believe. Brainwashing is something you can only recognize when you transcend your present situation perceive reality from a different angle. >>



I don't know about the cult and brainwashing aspects of the church,however they do seem very big on the concept of getting children as young as possible,when you grow up with the doctrine of mother church being beaten into your head it becomes like second nature to not question what you've always been told.


My problems with the church centered around the fact that there seemed to be no real place there for women and that those in charge of running the show ,no matter how compassionate they might be could truly have no idea of of the issues and needs of everyday women like myself. Edicts being issued by elderly male celibates didn't sit too well with me. The crap of having to confess week after week to commiting "sins" like wanting to love my husband without fear of having kids we couldn't afford to feed got real old after awhile .Heck, women I know used to compare notes about confessional, in a desparate effort to try to identify amongest ourselves which priests were likely to be more sympathetic
to our sitution and least likely to raise cane with us.To me that totally voided and negated the true purpose of the confessional, making it and my participation in as a member of the church meanless. I got to the place where I could
no longer lie about wanting to ask forgiveness for being a real flesh and blood person.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

<<

<< Speaking as a Catholic, I don't feel brainwashed at all. >>

GirlFriday, I'm purposely ignoring the rest of your post in order to take issue with this particular statement. Imagine asking a devout follower of Scientology if he/she "feels brainwashed". Or, perhaps, a Branch Davidian? The Heaven's Gate cult? Those who drank cyanide with Jim Jones in Guyana? You don't "feel brainwashed" because you truly believe. Brainwashing is something you can only recognize when you transcend your present situation and are able to perceive reality from a different angle. >>



Astaroth, do you think you are brainwashed when you make this statement?
Think about what you are comparing her religion to. FYI I am not Catholic. In fact I have no strong feeling about the Catholic church one way or another. I do feel that if someone have a reasonable belief, then that is their business. In fact if their belief is unreasonable, then that is ok too. MY limit is where there is actual harm being done.

Therefore IMAO, scientology is strange, but oh well. Now when someone advocates suicide or murder, we are at a different level.

And yes I was brainwashed into making this post

 

[lawaris]

<< maybe its the history of the church, their haterd of people like galieleo, or maybe the inquizition, or maybe papel indulgences, or their attitude of non-tolarence towards gays, could be a lot of things i think. >>




and lots more

 

[JohnnyReb]

Edit: Too off-topic.

 

[JohnnyReb]

I like how you make Catholicism out to be this wacko religion that's against God, when it's what parented your little sect anyway. Without Catholicism you wouldn't be Christian!

chill,
The Catholic church wasn't the first church. I know they claim Peter as the first Pope, but doesn't his wife somehow discount that? Besides, wasn't the herald of Jesus a Baptist?

John

 

[Optimus]

Hello everyone,

I'm starting to feel a little cliche'd - people were asking when I'd show up many posts back . I was playing the first game of my team's hockey tournament this weekend (we won 5-3, w00t! I play goal if anyone is interested).

I thought of doing a bunch of quoting and answering misconceptions (cause there are a LOT of them in here), but instead I'm just going to cover a few of the common ones and then offer to answer any questions anyone might have.

My "qualifications"? Well, apart from being declared the board's "resident Catholic" , I am a former seminarian (studied to become a priest, left on great terms as I just don't have that specific calling in life), minored in theology in University, and have been studying world religions and Catholicism for about 12 years now.

A quote to begin:

"There are only about 100 people in the entire world that actually hate the Catholic Church, the rest hate what they believe the Church to be."

The most critical thing to remember about the Church is the fact that it is entirely made up of flawed human beings - people with the same nature, temptations, faults, and evil everyone has. Many have even entered the Church hierarchy and made quite a living for themselves abusing it, gaining positions of power that they then wield to their own ends. One of the greatest Catholic thinkers of all time once commented that the greatest attack on the Church was from within.

However, please remember the saying I repeat over and over here:

The actions of individuals in a group, when those actions are contrary to the teachings and beliefs of that group, do not represent the group itself.

This is why all the Ted Kazinski's (sp?) in the world would not invalidate being American. Why all the terrorsits do not invalidate Muslim peoples. ETC, ETC...

Now, that said, let us move on to:

1) Money: People regard the Church as some kind of massive land-owning, money grabbing entity. Wrong. The Church asks for money purely voluntarily, any mandatory demand for money is against Chruch teaching.

The selling of indulgences, and the modern "charge" for services are actions against the Church by people within the Church itself. These practices are condemned as wrong by the Church itself.

That said, it is not as widespread as you think - I've never ONCE been demanded anything by the Church - not one dime. Quite the contrary, I've helped raise funds for local priests and nuns - I know what these people live like, poor and simple.

EVERY priest, Bishop, etc takes a lifelong and solemn VOW of poverty - this is a mandate of the Church and faith. Anyone who abuses that vow is WRONG.

2) Confession and Birth Control: I use these 2 together because they are both some of the toughest tenets of the faith to understand. I don't even think I can begin to explain them here - it would take pages and pages to build a base knowledge and further understanding of these elements of the faith.
Confession is based on our own nature - it is good to tell God "Sorry" for past wrongs - many of us can see that. But how wonderful is it to hear GOD say back to US "Its OK, All is forgiven".

It is amazingly powerful and healing.

And yes, it is God - the priest is an "alter christus" - another Christ. We believe that through the sacraments, a priest actually sits in with the authority and place of Christ Himself. No, not some kinda possession thing - more like.... power of attorney.
"Whos sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them." - Pow, Christ's words to the apostles (the founders of the Church).

Birth Control is based on the nature of sexuality, and it took me an entire semester to understand it fully. I can't even begin to explain it here - but suffice it to say, if anyone is really interested in knowing WHY the Church teaches such a seemingly difficult principle, please PM me for links and books on the subject.
And no, Catholics are NOT expected to have a zillion kids they can't feed - we are supposed to space our children as we can support them through natural means (NFP, Sympto-Thermal method, etc.). Again - too complicated to explain in a post on AT.

3) Past wrongs by the Church:
Again - to go back to my principle of group invalidation. The quiet fact of the matter is that the Catholic Church has NEVER once condoned or apporved of, nor encouraged any violent, repressive, or evil act such as the inquisitions, Gallileo, etc.

EVERY instance was again, of people in power abusing thier postions for political and personal ends. Even some of the Popes.

The voice of the Church is not what Bishop X, or nun Y, or Bob says - the Church has ONE official voice which we believe is actually infallible. What has come out of this "voice of the Church" has:
a) NEVER once changed in the past 2000 years - no reversal of teaching, no corrections, no apologies.
b) NEVER condoned anything wrong - no wrong principles, no violence, no crusades, nothing.

So what is this "voice"?

The voice of the Church is The Pope, ONLY when he speaks "ex cathedra".

Yes, the pope is human and flawed when he speaks as himself. But when he issues OFFICIAL Church teachings on faith and dogma, he is infallible.

Never was any violence, evil, correction, or mistake issued "ex cathedra".

Two Thousand years - not one change or mistake... only possible through the direct guidance of God himself.

You can fight with your local Bishop till you are blue in the face.... Popes can personally cheer on wars and evils... Priests can be rapists.... ALL EVIL ACTS, COMMITTED BY EVIL PEOPLE.

But not commited by the Church herself. A perfect entity run by flawed people.


4) Sin and Guilt:

We believe that God gave us free will... Freedom is an observable good for without it we are slaves. There are is only good in existance, evil is the absence of good (think matter/anti-matter). Everything good is of God, everything evil is not-God.
Our concept of Sin is based on good and evil - we are supposed to do good and avoid evil, avoid sin. When we do evil, we are supposed to at least be sorry and say so (confession).

Guilt is not a part of Catholicism, but it is heavily associated with it. This is because we have such clearly defined "Right and Wrong". There is no real if, ands, or buts about it.

Absolution removes guilt. This is a fact of life. We piss off our mother, and we feel guilty if we were in the wrong. We say sorry and she forgives us, we no longer need feel guilty. Human nature.

Catholics have the least reason of anyone to carry any guilt - we can actually go hear the words of Christ, spoken through a priest, say "Hey, its OK - all is forgiven.".

OK, I lied a little, I am going to address some quotes from the thread. So sue me



<< I dont like the attitude of many of the Catholics I know >>


Again - flawed people running a perfect faith. I know a lot of "Catholics" who piss me off too!


<< maybe its the history of the church, their haterd of people like galieleo, or maybe the inquizition, or maybe papel indulgences, >>


See #3 above


<< or their attitude of non-tolarence towards gays, could be a lot of things i think. >>


Actually, the Church is just fine with Gays. We are more tolerant than any other world religion I think. We think gay people are just fine, they just shouldn't be having any kind of sex outside marriage. Yes, marriage is between man and woman. No, we don't think gays HAVE to "go straight" or such nonsense. This comes back to our belief that yes, lots of people can and do live just fine without screwing anything within a 5 mile radius. When did we loose our mastery of our own sexuality? When did it become an uncontrollable monster we must obey? When did we exactly become slaves?
There is a movie out - "40 days and 40 nights" where Josh Hartnett (damn you for Pearl Harbour!) tries to "do the impossible" and go 40 days without sex. Sheesh! I've gone years with nothing - no sex, no fap fap, nada. If you look at me and tell me thats impossible, then ask yourself "what is really in control of me?".
On SNL, the host last week commented that if you pass a pumpkin patch and your peeny goes "hmmm?", and you pass the patch another day and again the peeny goes "hmmm?" - guess what, you're gonna be screwing a pumpkin one day. There is "no arguing with your peeny". Bull-crap. When did we become slaves to our craziest urges? When did screwing anything and anyone in sight become mandatory? Has sex become that meaningless?
Sorry - I'm waaaay off topic here on a personal rant. BTW, I have plenty of great sex with my loving wife, thanks.

Back on topic - The Church actually recognizes that homosexuality is liekly something you are born with. The Church has stated that to discriminate or hate gays is wrong! Shocking, huh?



<< The Cathlic Church is a Cult. The worship of idols is Satanic. Only God can forgive sins, NOT some person who claims to speak for God while in a booth. >>


Woah, nelly! We do NOT worship idols, we do not worship Mary or saints, we talk to them as fellow people! Icons and statues and pictures just help us focus! Its a visual reminder! Where did this worship idea come from? And the confession thing - read #2.

Jean: My friend, I do not seek to convert you or change your mind or anything like that, but I would like to talk about what has you upset at the Church if you'd like.

I do not think you are excommunicated, although it seems someone or some book has thrown that at you erroneously. If you actually got a Bishop to issue an excommunication against you personally, we can figure out why and whether its legit too.

I suspect your problems with the Church stem from Birth Control, Divorce, and women's issues. There is a LOT of misunderstanding on those, even within the Chruch itself. Quite likely you may have been told some innacurate things - maybe I can clarify?

Again - I respect whatever you are most comfortable with, and I'm not out to convert or preach at ya! You know me pretty well here at AT - I think we are good online friends.


Anyone else too - questions, beefs, whatever - post away and I'll do my best to address them. I will not respond to flames, trolling, personal attacks (I might bite back if I'm feeling pissy ) or general comments on the psychosis of all religions and the formation of a perfect master race.

 

[Optimus]

<< The Catholic church wasn't the first church. I know they claim Peter as the first Pope, but doesn't his wife somehow discount that? >>


Hiya,
Actually we were the first Church (uh-oh, argument time! ) - Peter was the "rock, upon which I will build my Church...". Being married doesn't discount him, as marriage and priests is a Tradition, not a teaching of the Chruch (dogma). i.e. thats one of the things that can change ("Whatsoever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in Heaven...").
The early Popes and Bishops (the Pope is actually just the Bishop of Rome) were married.


<< Besides, wasn't the herald of Jesus a Baptist? >>


Badum -ching! LOL!
(Explanation to third parties: John, the herald of Christ, was called John the Baptist as he Baptised people. "Baptist" today is the name of a branch of Protestant Christianity.)

 

[BigJohnKC]

<< I like how you make Catholicism out to be this wacko religion that's against God, when it's what parented your little sect anyway. Without Catholicism you wouldn't be Christian!

chill,
The Catholic church wasn't the first church. I know they claim Peter as the first Pope, but doesn't his wife somehow discount that? Besides, wasn't the herald of Jesus a Baptist?

John >>



LOL....that gave me a good laugh. John the Baptist......hehehe.

 

[SaltBoy]

Just curious, where does the name "Catholic" come from? And "Pope" as well...?

Last time I checked, Peter was an Apostle, not a Pope.