question about catholicism and why some people really dislike it (please no flames)

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Optimus

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2000
3,618
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Saltboy:

Catholic means "Universal". We believe that we are the one Church founded by Christ for everyone - universal.

Pope/Apostle/Bishop - all words meaning the same people, really. Pope = Bishop of Rome, the word Pope comes from the word "father". Bishops are the successors of the Apostles.
 

XZeroII

Lifer
Jun 30, 2001
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Alot of you people who are catholics just don't realize what is really going on. I consider myself a Christian because I believe that there is a God and all that stuff, but I don't believe that a church should run your life. My Grandma (I am 20 years old) goes to a "Fellowship" church. I have found that to be a great type of church because they don't preach to you about how BAD you are and how you should REPENT or go to hell. It's a group of people who get together and the pasture talks about a topic that could help you in your life. Perhaps it's about friendship, or love, or being nice to others or whatever, and it goes back to God. It's different every time and you walk away feeling like a better person. I don't go much (maybe a few times a year), but I think it is a great place because everyone there is so friendly. I've gone to Catholic churches years ago where you just came with frown on your face, and left with a frown on your face. Say "hi" to a few people but that is it. When I leave this other type of Church, a 'Fellowship', you leave feeling better and such. Maybe it's not for everyone, but it's less formal, and they don't 'Audit' you when it comes time for collection. Anyway, perhaps this is a good think, perhaps not but at least it makes you feel better and that is what counts. God wants you to feel good, not get bored every sunday morning. Is he real? Who knows, but I'll hedge my bets and believe. What have you got to lose?
 

Optimus

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2000
3,618
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XZeroII:

Actually, you would just need to find a specific Catholic Church that fit your "style" then. The way you describe the kinds of Faith Celebrations you find the most beneficial, you would find the Charismatic Catholic churches and masses much more your speed. These are perfectly legit masses that emphasize the upbeat and joyous.
I'd have to know your area to point one out, but if you are ever in Ohio, stop in at the University of Steubenville, in the Ohio valley. :)

As for the "audit or collections", please see my previous post - if a specific Church is doing that, people should stay away - that Church is ignoring Catholic teaching on the issue.

Hope this helps.

:)
 

crash2much

Senior member
Jan 11, 2001
220
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The history gets me. Boiled down, their ends have always justified their means as long as ya throw a few "In the name of the Lord"'s into it
Also, how does a set of "spirtual laws" that are meant to save my everlasting soul evolve every generation. Seems like it's a package product which changes it's rules to suite the masses.
The hipocrise also gets to me. How can 'father' give premarital conseling, mariage conseling, family conseling ect. when he has never been in those situations. Through I've known several Preists who were well educated, world traveled and trying to be helpful, I cannot take their insight very seriosly. They don't have the same life experiences that relate to common people.
I respect the Pope though. He does very well holding steadfast to tradional ideas. Maybe Catholism has just been Americanised, and maybe it's different abroad.

 

Optimus

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2000
3,618
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Hi Crash2much:

Please take a look at point #3 in my gignormous post on page one of this thread about the history, nature of sin (the rules), etc. (if you are interested in the points you brought up).

As for marriage counselling / prep courses, priests are there for spiritual help and to instruct on how Christ's teachings (be nice to each other, honor each other, don't screw around on each other...etc) can help. A priest would not be a sex counsellor, or intensive marriage therapist, he wouldn't even try.

A priest is a spiritual counsellor and can help with the spiritual side of marriage (we believe it is a sacrament), and thats the nature of marriage prep classes in the Church - to prepare for the sacrament of marriage, the spiritual side.

Cheers! :)
 

Gonad the Barbarian, it's okay. I suspected that was what happened. I was really messing with ya there! ;)

"Emperor Constantine opened the doors for Christianity to spread westward by making it the official state religion of Rome. Before he came along Christianity was a small "cult", as you might refer to it."

Okay, Luv2chill, I got to pick on this one. Fact is, Constantine was not a Catholic. The Christianity of his period was more like Greek Orthodox Christianity. The Eastern Orthodox Christianity existed before the Catholic church did. The Catholic church sometimes gets way more credit than it should. I'm a little to tired to find that thread with a link to the story. The thread where someone asked about the birth of Christ. I'm also too tired to use google to find it. :D

"Without Catholicism you wouldn't be Christian!"

Well, perhaps that is true for protestants. But it is not at all true for the Orthodox Christians. And it is only true for the protestants because of how history wrote itself. The protestants were a former part of the Catholic church, and even Martin Luther, for example, did not wish to separate from the church. I guess his desire was to change some of the doctrines (e.g., he argued that we could only reach salvation through a personal relationship with Christ and reading the Bible ourselves for a closer relationship with Christ) and corruption in the church.

Which brings me to . . . the Church has always had this thing for money. There is always some form of corruption, which boggles the mind. Remember the indulgence case? We have printing and as widespread as it is--thanks to the Catholic church and the conduct of one of its high officals (the corruption had to do with indulgence and money in it of course). He remedied the situation by producing this nice thing called printing! ;)
 

Optimus

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2000
3,618
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Hi luvly:



<< Fact is, Constantine was not a Catholic. The Christianity of his period was more like Greek Orthodox Christianity. The Eastern Orthodox Christianity existed before the Catholic church did. >>


Actually, the Eastern Rite Catholicism is in full communion (part of) the Catholic Church - the Greek Orthadox, Russian Orthadow, etc all stem from this original tradition of Catholicism. i.e. Back in Constantine's time, there was only the one Chruch, with different traditions depending on where you were. The key as to whether someone is Catholic is whether they follow the Pope's authority on spiritual matters, which Constantine did.



<< Which brings me to . . . the Church has always had this thing for money. There is always some form of corruption, which boggles the mind. Remember the indulgence case? We have printing and as widespread as it is--thanks to the Catholic church and the conduct of one of its high officals (the corruption had to do with indulgence and money in it of course). He remedied the situation by producing this nice thing called printing! >>


Actually - PEOPLE in general have always had a thing for money! 'Tis money that drives greed, a powerful motivating force rooted in survival and comfort. It is sad and true that many IN the Church used thier postions (some still do) to grab money and power.
Please have a read at point #1 in my gigantic post on page one of this thread if you are interested in more info on this topic.

Cheers! :)

 

Kev

Lifer
Dec 17, 2001
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<< excommunicated catholic here...
>>

wow, how does one get excommunicated? that seems pretty harsh
 

JohnnyReb

Banned
Feb 20, 2002
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The selling of indulgences, and the modern "charge" for services are actions against the Church by people within the Church itself. These practices are condemned as wrong by the Church itself.

Perhaps the "selling" is condemned (source, please), but the whole concept of indulgences is repugnant. Catholicism is an extra-Biblical religion, placing tradition/experience above Scripture.


For the interested, read:


Indulgences - The Catholic Encyclopedia

Luther's 95 Thesis

The Catholic doctrine is based on a combination of inference and tradition. Luther's response is based on Scripture. Luther began his attempts to reform the Roman church after studying the book of Romans. If Catholicism is right, then the Bible is wrong. There is small relation between the two.

John

 

petrek

Senior member
Apr 11, 2001
953
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"It's not my opinion. Emperor Constantine opened the doors for Christianity to spread westward by making it the official state religion of Rome. Before he came along Christianity was a small "cult", as you might refer to it."

And how did he open the doors, what religions did he combine to make his new religion, Catholocism, appealing to the people?

God says "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Mathew 17:13-14 KJV

So, according to God, Christianity never was and never will be popular.

"You can respectfully disagree with another religion without making it seem like the devil's work. I'm not a fan of Catholicism either, but I don't condemn it. I don't have that right and frankly, neither do you."

Quite frankly, yes I do.

God says "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged..." Mathew 7:1-2

I will be judged by the word of God and so too do I judge by the Authority of Scripture.

Christ said to the Pharisees, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."



In response to this "I like how you make Catholicism out to be this wacko religion that's against God, when it's what parented your little sect anyway. Without Catholicism you wouldn't be Christian!

I swear... think before you open your mouth and make such foolish statements. Catholicism is satanic... yeah okay"

You would be well to take your own advice here.

Prove from scripture that Christ endorsed Catholocism, a religion which wouldn't appear until a few centuries later.

Prove that the Crusades and the Inquisition didn't kill individuals who wouldn't submit to Catholocism (like myself and others who view the Bible as the literal word of God).

(Keep in mind I was a member of Catholocism for 18 years, and I have numerous books related to this issue, including : The KJV Bible, The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent, Vatican Council II-Constitutions, Decrees, and Declarations, and A well documented Historical account of the Catholic Church)

Dave
 

petrek

Senior member
Apr 11, 2001
953
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"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them..." Exodus 20:4-5

"petrek,

If you are a Catholic and are worshipping idols, you got confused somewhere along the way. I would never consider a statue of Christ or Mary as a graven image (certainly not a golden bull)."

You might not, but God does, and I SERVE GOD.
 

Sophia

Senior member
Apr 26, 2001
680
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Petrek,

Is your position, then, that "any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth" used within a religious context is idolatry?
 

Sophia

Senior member
Apr 26, 2001
680
0
0
Petrek,

Yet there are instances in the Old Testament where God commands the making of representations of cheribum. Are these not likenesses of a "thing in heaven above"?

EX 25:17 "Make an atonement cover of pure gold--two and a half cubits long and a cubit and a half wide. 18 And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. 19 Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends. 20 The cherubim are to have their wings spread upward, overshadowing the cover with them. The cherubim are to face each other, looking toward the cover. 21 Place the cover on top of the ark and put in the ark the Testimony, which I will give you. 22 There, above the cover between the two cherubim that are over the ark of the Testimony, I will meet with you and give you all my commands for the Israelites.

and

1CH 28:11 Then David gave his son Solomon the plans for the portico of the temple, its buildings, its storerooms, its upper parts, its inner rooms and the place of atonement. 12 He gave him the plans of all that the Spirit had put in his mind for the courts of the temple of the LORD and all the surrounding rooms, for the treasuries of the temple of God and for the treasuries for the dedicated things. 13 He gave him instructions for the divisions of the priests and Levites, and for all the work of serving in the temple of the LORD, as well as for all the articles to be used in its service. 14 He designated the weight of gold for all the gold articles to be used in various kinds of service, and the weight of silver for all the silver articles to be used in various kinds of service: 15 the weight of gold for the gold lampstands and their lamps, with the weight for each lampstand and its lamps; and the weight of silver for each silver lampstand and its lamps, according to the use of each lampstand; 16 the weight of gold for each table for consecrated bread; the weight of silver for the silver tables; 17 the weight of pure gold for the forks, sprinkling bowls and pitchers; the weight of gold for each gold dish; the weight of silver for each silver dish; 18 and the weight of the refined gold for the altar of incense. He also gave him the plan for the chariot, that is, the cherubim of gold that spread their wings and shelter the ark of the covenant of the LORD.

1CH 28:19 "All this," David said, "I have in writing from the hand of the LORD upon me, and he gave me understanding in all the details of the plan."
 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
20,022
17
81
Was just watching ABC about the Catholic priest issue. Searched the forum and found this old topic I had forgotten about.

I asked a friend about the money for "favors". He said they charge fees to "bless your house" and things like that. He said his grandmother was sick and dying. They kept sending her envelopes for her tithing (or whatever they call it), because she hadn't shown up at church. Never bothered to find out why... :disgust:

Anyway, what do you think will come of this pedophile cover up issue?
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,976
141
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Just think of all that collection plate money that was handed off to lawyers, rape victims, hush money, out of court settlement money, in court settlement money and families of rape victims to keep quite about child rape incidents. And you thought you were donating to charity...
 

Dragnov

Diamond Member
Apr 24, 2001
6,878
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Those that are catholic and had no problems would remain catholic. Those that aren't and dislike the catholic church, now dislike it even more.

I dont consider it a huge matter. What... you don't think cops, politicians, doctors, etc. do any of this either do you?! Oh wait, the government, LAPD, etc. don't try to cover it up either do they? Eh... whatever... one doesn't represent the whole, even if the collective group is handling it poorly.
 

Rio Rebel

Administrator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,194
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Optimus -

You know I can't get in here and help, because I don't have the patience that you do. But know that your efforts are supported and appreciated. :)

 

NikPreviousAcct

No Lifer
Aug 15, 2000
52,763
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Catholicism is based on works (which goes directly against the Bible's teachings which they supposedly follow) instead of a personal relationship with Christ. Can you say legalism?

nik
 

Rio Rebel

Administrator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,194
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Oh, one more thing...


STFUOICYFTO.


(a little bonus for the old timers...;))
 

Optimus

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2000
3,618
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Thanks Rio. :) The key to staying calm and sane is to really only acknowledge the questions, issues, and posters that actually seem to respect the issue, even if they disagree with it. For instance, IGTB is in almost EVERY religion thread with one small, flaming, inaccurate, and nasty post - then he leaves. To acknowledge or respond to his drivel is pointless and frustrating. :)

BTW, I think a more complete "old timers" post would be:

"STFUOICYFTO.
Have a nice day, and try not to die!"

:D

Ornery:

The abuse issue is terrible, but caused naturally by the humanity and ability to do evil of people in the Church. Child abusers know no creed, occupation, or race - they are from every walk of life. The key here is how members of the Chruch hierarchy handled things. Some handled it terribly (coverups, etc), some handled it as best possible. I'd like to see some firm direction from Rome to prevent the coverups happening ever again.

And with the money collections - yes it happens that some priests/hierarchy members go for the cash. Its also terribly sad. The key point to remember is that EVERY SINGLE ONE of these actions you are horrified by - abuse, coverups, money grabbing - is EXPRESSLY forbidden by both our faith and Church law.
The actions of members of a group, when those actions are contrary to the group's beliefs, values, and teachings, do not represent the group as a whole, nor what it believes.


Nik (FFMCobalt): Actually no - Catholicism is based on faith AND works - not just either one. To us you must both believe and actually live a good life, no technicalities on either side.

Faith alone can carry the technicality of "Hey I can do whatever, cause I believe and am therefore saved"
Works alone can carry the technicality of "I did my X number of prayers, now lemme into Heaven"

We believe one must believe (theres the personal relationship with God) AND live a life of goodness to the best of thier abilities. But really we believe its the goodness of your heart - a truly good heart MUST express itself by doing good and loving God.

Hope this helps.

-Optimus
 

slag

Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
10,473
81
101


<< "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them"

:) Dave
>>




Dave, when Catholics "pray to a statue", they aren't really praying to a statue. They are really practicing prayers of intercession. In simple terms, they are asking Mary or other religious figures to intercede on their behalf and make their prayers known.



For 18 years throughout my childhood I went to Catholic church, CCD, was an acolyte, assistant, etc. After I left the house and opened my eyes to the world (yes, I was sheltered. I have 5 sisters, both parents which are devout Catholics, and we lived in the sticks), I can see there is much more out there to be explored and to experience. It was 10 years ago when I went to college. I've been out for many years, but havent actually made up my mind if I am still a Catholic or not. I mean, I married a Methodist, but we were married in the Catholic church. I have a 1 year old, but don't feel the need to go to church every Sunday. I feel that as long as I take personal time out of my schedule to acknowledge there is a God and he knows I am doing this, then that is all that is necessary and it fulfills my spiritual needs.

Oddly enough, I still refrain from eating meat on Fridays in Lent and other intricacies about the Catholic religion, but I just dont fully acknowledge everything the Catholic church says or believes in. When attending the Methodist church with my wife, I find it to be a much more personal atmosphere and one centered around living as a Christian in today's world, whereas Mass on Sundays in the Catholic church seems to be much more impersonal and centered around life back in the time of Jesus.

The only Catholic church I have ever liked going to was the campus Catholic church in Emporia Kansas. Didde was a very comfortable church to attend that was specific to students and their lifestyles.

 

calbear2000

Golden Member
Oct 17, 2001
1,027
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<< Optimus -

You know I can't get in here and help, because I don't have the patience that you do. But know that your efforts are supported and appreciated. :)
>>



Ditto. Optimus, your patience, knowledge, and maturity are admirable.
 

GL

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,547
0
0
I grew up Catholic, no longer consider myself Catholic, but also don't consider myself a "recovering" Catholic.

I've seen a lot of misplaced criticism of the Catholic Church on this board. Even though I've found myself attracted to a different notion of spirituality than that found in the Church, there's simply a lot of ignorance about the Church itself. Prior to Vatican II which I believe occured in the 60s, the Church was vastly different than it is today. Believe it or not, the Church of today does not rely on guilt. If one went to a parish that worked on this principle, then I don't think that parish is working in conjunction with the Church's actual policy.

I had a great upbringing in a Catholic environment. I went to public Catholic grade school and an all boys Catholic high school complete with a uniform consisting of a jacket, slacks, tie and dress shoes. My qualms with Catholicism had more to do with organized religion than anything else.

I have a great respect with how Catholicism can reconcile the lessons of science, such as evolution, with its own beliefs. However, I have a great criticism with how the Catholic Church does not like to promote study of some great thinkers from its past - notably St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine among countless others.

Also, I'm disturbed by how some of the Church's doctrine is not actually based on solid science even though, at the time, this doctrine was believed to be based on science. In other words, at the time that science agreed with the Church's teachings, their reasons for accepting such doctrine was attributed to scientific reason, but when science progresses and comes to a different conclusion that conflicts with Church teachings, this is swept under the rug and kept quiet.

One such instance of this is the following. I consider myself pro-life although I don't think that very early term abortions are murder. In fact, my opinion on this matter was upheld by the Church. This was the opinion of St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine on abortion, and was embraced by the Council of Vienne in 1312. The Council's cannon law has never been repudiated. In fact, it was only until 1869, with its basis in flawed scientific evidence, that abortion at any time for any reason became grounds for excommunication from the Church. The flawed evidence was the notion of an entity known as a homunculus. During this time, microscopes were becoming more readily available and the human sperm under the microscope appeared somewhat like a fully formed human being. The scientific theory behind the homunculi (sperm), was that they were in fact fully formed human beings, that housed further fully formed human beings, which housed further formed fully human beings, ad infinitum. Of course, murder is against Church teachings, and killing a homunculus which was thought to simply be a fully-formed but smaller human being, was just that. Now, I don't want to get into a debate about abortion, but this is the basis upon which the Church's complete ban on abortions is founded. It is to be noted however, that the Church has never endorsed the abortion of a fetal being - only abortion up until the moment that the fetus was fully formed (roughly the end of the first trimester).

Still, having been brought up my whole life, I don't think I would personally ever condone a woman I was involved with to have an abortion if she was pregnant by me. I guess some things never change but I'd try everything in my power 1) never to get myself into this situation and 2) if I did get myself in this situation, to provide alternatives to abortion for her.

But what the issue such as abortion is indicative of, is the Church telling people how to live one's life but not telling them to question how these teachings came about. I think it's a very important process to question your faith as it's really the only path to come to any meaningful spiritual peace during your life.

I'm sort of bouncing around a slew of topics, but in other issues, I don't think allowing priests to marry will solve the problem of priests who are child molesters. And I also don't think that those child molesting priests are the way they are because they are homosexual. There's a bunch of politics going around, but the simple fact of the matter is that child molesters are sick human beings and they need to be taken away from vulnerable children in society and treated before they can commit harm.

I've known several priests while I was a Catholic and some were spiritual duds who shouldn't have been working as a priest because they did nothing to enhance people's faith. And others were very good role models; great role models in fact, that touched countless people's lives. Just because I don't consider myself Catholic does not negate the fact that I consider these priests to be great role models and wherever possible, I try to live my life as they did theirs, helping other people.

The funny thing that I find, is that most people who criticise the Catholic church, do so for teachings that I personally did not leave the Church for. Whether it be pre-marital sex which I believe to be a nice ideal to acheive but am not promoting in any fashion or abortion, I believe I left the Church for reasons far greater. Simply put, the religion couldn't answer my questions with regards to the bigger questions in a satisfying matter. And slowly, I realized I believed in a different type of God than the one the Church believed in. So I left.